Discussion about 10,000BTC Bet (Official)

[Rassah]

I was merely pointing out that since the entire 'investment' and bet with matthew were made using bitcoin and the US government does not regulate bitcoin, the cops aren't going to do a damn thing about it. 

This has been pointed out many many times before, but you must have missed it:
Are bricks considered money? Does government regulate bricks? If someone happened to steal $5,000,000 worth of bricks, do you think the government would just laugh it off, because it's not money and is not regulated, and will ignore the theft?
Do you think that for anything to be considered legal theft, the item stolen must have government regulations?

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[Chang Hum]

I think this threads got mixed up between the bet and pirate, people are arguing over different things!

[DOH!]

I was merely pointing out that since the entire 'investment' and bet with matthew were made using bitcoin and the US government does not regulate bitcoin, the cops aren't going to do a damn thing about it. 

This has been pointed out many many times before, but you must have missed it:
Are bricks considered money? Does government regulate bricks? If someone happened to steal $5,000,000 worth of bricks, do you think the government would just laugh it off, because it's not money and is not regulated, and will ignore the theft?
Do you think that for anything to be considered legal theft, the item stolen must have government regulations?

And if I 'invest' a million dollars worth of manure or bricks or another analog of your choice into a high risk scheme not knowing how the interest is paid or where the extra manure comes from, do you think the government will do ANYTHING when the shit hits the fan and the person on the receiving end of the deposit goes dark?  The point was this: If someone actually stole money, you could call the cops.  They would do an investigation, and you may or may not get your money back.  If you invest the same money into a legitimate company and they go belly up, you're fucked.  You can call the cops, but they aren't going to be able to get your money back.  If you signed a contract stating that you are knowingly investing in a high risk scheme and that you acknowledge the risk, you're double fucked.  If you hand that same money to a guy on the street who tells you that he will come right back with your original money plus 7 percent a week, but he can't tell you where the 7 percent is coming from or prove to you who he is or where he is located or what business he is in or any number of other questions a prudent investor should ask, then calling the cops when he doesn't come back is going to be, well, good luck with that.  Now throw into the mix a cryptocurrency that is pseudo-anonymous, unregulated, and not legal tender, and your good luck just flew out the window.  Once again, "waaahhh, the internet guy stole my WoW gold!"

[peasant]

Do you have a receipt for your bitcoin?  

[DOH!]

Do you have a receipt for your bitcoin?  

+1

[MrTeal]

Do you have a receipt for your bitcoin?  

Do you have a receipt for your manure? Perhaps you could get the cow to sign an affidavit?

[Rassah]

Now throw into the mix a cryptocurrency that is pseudo-anonymous, unregulated, and not legal tender, and your good luck just flew out the window.  Once again, "waaahhh, the internet guy stole my WoW gold!"

You really need to get off the "it's not real money, so no one will care" bandwagon. Pirate allegedly did something illegal because he claimed a legitimate business, and claimed legitimate investments, while possibly doing something that wasn't legal or legitimate. It really doesn't matter if the investment was made using USD, BTC, or manure. Bottom line is that something of value was taken from others by illegitimate means. That's all the law cares about.

[SgtSpike]

Now throw into the mix a cryptocurrency that is pseudo-anonymous, unregulated, and not legal tender, and your good luck just flew out the window.  Once again, "waaahhh, the internet guy stole my WoW gold!"

You really need to get off the "it's not real money, so no one will care" bandwagon. Your SA id is really showing.

+1.  If it has value, then the police and FBI WILL care.

[DOH!]

Now throw into the mix a cryptocurrency that is pseudo-anonymous, unregulated, and not legal tender, and your good luck just flew out the window.  Once again, "waaahhh, the internet guy stole my WoW gold!"

You really need to get off the "it's not real money, so no one will care" bandwagon. Pirate allegedly did something illegal because he claimed a legitimate business, and claimed legitimate investments, while possibly doing something that wasn't legal or legitimate. It really doesn't matter if the investment was made using USD, BTC, or manure. Bottom line is that something of value was taken from others by illegitimate means. That's all the law cares about.

Honestly, I'm not on that bandwagon.  I have cashed out lots and lots of btc for Amazon Payments, traded with them, and sold some for paypal gifts, etc. so I know that bitcoins have value.  I have 3.3ghash/sec mining away, so I personally know the value of btc and enjoy using and generating the currency.  I was pointing out that it's a very big hurdle to 1)explain to the authorities just exactly what the fuck a bitcoin is and 2) get them to care. Furthermore, I wish you would read the intent of the post instead of pointing out the "it's not real money, no one will care" part.  Nobody gave any guarantees of any return on paper, nobody has any signed contracts from pirate that I know of, and that makes it a sketchy item to prosecute.

[Rassah]

Honestly, I'm not on that bandwagon.  I have cashed out lots and lots of btc for Amazon Payments, traded with them, and sold some for paypal gifts, etc. so I know that bitcoins have value.  I have 3.3ghash/sec mining away, so I personally know the value of btc and enjoy using and generating the currency.  I was pointing out that it's a very big hurdle to 1)explain to the authorities just exactly what the fuck a bitcoin is and 2) get them to care. Furthermore, I wish you would read the intent of the post instead of pointing out the "it's not real money, no one will care" part.  Nobody gave any guarantees of any return on paper, nobody has any signed contracts from pirate that I know of, and that makes it a sketchy item to prosecute.

Understood. My apologies, and you are right.

[coinft]

The fuck are the cops gonna do about it?

The fuck are you gonna do about it else?

Plead and whine at the scammer while assuring him you are not going to the authorities? Fail.

Another question: what harm will do cops do (assuming you aren't involved with this scam)?

Yeah, I must be involved with the scam... derp.  I was merely pointing out that since the entire 'investment' and bet with matthew were made using bitcoin and the US government does not regulate bitcoin, the cops aren't going to do a damn thing about it.  I imagine it would be much like some ten year old kid calling 911 saying that some guy on the internet just stole all his WoW gold, the cop laughing, and then returning to his dunkin's.  You might have luck in a civil lawsuit, but even that is unprecedented. I believe the first bitcoin lawsuit is in litigation atm, and that was for breach of contract. I don't know what the original contract terms were for btcst, if someone could link it that would be helpful.  It seems that I remember someone saying that there was a statement made about high risk, blah blah blah you might lose everything, etc. so I don't think there are grounds for breach of contract.  Please disregard this if there is some glaring error in logic, but it seems air-tight to me.

The glaring errors:

Many things are not regulated, yet theft or fraud involving them is criminal. If someone steals apples worth 100000$, there does not need to be a law regulating the apples.

There have been convictions about game money already.

And last: I never accused you specifically of being involved, I just limited my statement of no harm done to the victims. Curious about how many people claim to be victims, but seem to fear the authorities.

I guess the breach of contract in the btcst cause is about lying about how profits were made, or rather not made, ponzi style.

[mobodick]

The fuck are the cops gonna do about it?

The fuck are you gonna do about it else?

Plead and whine at the scammer while assuring him you are not going to the authorities? Fail.

Another question: what harm will do cops do (assuming you aren't involved with this scam)?

Yeah, I must be involved with the scam... derp.  I was merely pointing out that since the entire 'investment' and bet with matthew were made using bitcoin and the US government does not regulate bitcoin, the cops aren't going to do a damn thing about it.  I imagine it would be much like some ten year old kid calling 911 saying that some guy on the internet just stole all his WoW gold, the cop laughing, and then returning to his dunkin's.  You might have luck in a civil lawsuit, but even that is unprecedented. I believe the first bitcoin lawsuit is in litigation atm, and that was for breach of contract. I don't know what the original contract terms were for btcst, if someone could link it that would be helpful.  It seems that I remember someone saying that there was a statement made about high risk, blah blah blah you might lose everything, etc. so I don't think there are grounds for breach of contract.  Please disregard this if there is some glaring error in logic, but it seems air-tight to me.

The glaring errors:

Many things are not regulated, yet theft or fraud involving them is criminal. If someone steals apples worth 100000$, there does not need to be a law regulating the apples.

There have been convictions about game money already.

And last: I never accused you specifically of being involved, I just limited my statement of no harm done to the victims. Curious about how many people claim to be victims, but seem to fear the authorities.

I guess the breach of contract in the btcst cause is about lying about how profits were made, or rather not made, ponzi style.

The difference between apples and currency is that apples are a much less universal representation of value.
Hence you can yield currency in much more powerfull ways than apples and with that power comes a whole lot of new responsibilities.
But when you understand human nature you can understand that most people are not very proficient at using such power responsibly.
Before you know it regulation will seem the only sane way to have a currency system at all.

[coinft]

The fuck are the cops gonna do about it?

The fuck are you gonna do about it else?

Plead and whine at the scammer while assuring him you are not going to the authorities? Fail.

Another question: what harm will do cops do (assuming you aren't involved with this scam)?

Yeah, I must be involved with the scam... derp.  I was merely pointing out that since the entire 'investment' and bet with matthew were made using bitcoin and the US government does not regulate bitcoin, the cops aren't going to do a damn thing about it.  I imagine it would be much like some ten year old kid calling 911 saying that some guy on the internet just stole all his WoW gold, the cop laughing, and then returning to his dunkin's.  You might have luck in a civil lawsuit, but even that is unprecedented. I believe the first bitcoin lawsuit is in litigation atm, and that was for breach of contract. I don't know what the original contract terms were for btcst, if someone could link it that would be helpful.  It seems that I remember someone saying that there was a statement made about high risk, blah blah blah you might lose everything, etc. so I don't think there are grounds for breach of contract.  Please disregard this if there is some glaring error in logic, but it seems air-tight to me.

The glaring errors:

Many things are not regulated, yet theft or fraud involving them is criminal. If someone steals apples worth 100000$, there does not need to be a law regulating the apples.

There have been convictions about game money already.

And last: I never accused you specifically of being involved, I just limited my statement of no harm done to the victims. Curious about how many people claim to be victims, but seem to fear the authorities.

I guess the breach of contract in the btcst cause is about lying about how profits were made, or rather not made, ponzi style.

The difference between apples and currency is that apples are a much less universal representation of value.
Hence you can yield currency in much more powerfull ways than apples and with that power comes a whole lot of new responsibilities.
But when you understand human nature you can understand that most people are not very proficient at using such power responsibly.
Before you know it regulation will seem the only sane way to have a currency system at all.

Granted, apples are a different value store, BUT:

Off topic and strawmen argument. Does not explain at all why bitcoin should be exempt from criminal law regarding theft and fraud.


Asserting bitcoins are a law free zone is really harmful to the bitcoin community. It fosters an environment which invites scammers, and makes life hard for honest competition. So my stance is, everyone rejecting any involvement of authorities under all circumstances is harming the project as much as the scammers do.

 

[mobodick]

The fuck are the cops gonna do about it?

The fuck are you gonna do about it else?

Plead and whine at the scammer while assuring him you are not going to the authorities? Fail.

Another question: what harm will do cops do (assuming you aren't involved with this scam)?

Yeah, I must be involved with the scam... derp.  I was merely pointing out that since the entire 'investment' and bet with matthew were made using bitcoin and the US government does not regulate bitcoin, the cops aren't going to do a damn thing about it.  I imagine it would be much like some ten year old kid calling 911 saying that some guy on the internet just stole all his WoW gold, the cop laughing, and then returning to his dunkin's.  You might have luck in a civil lawsuit, but even that is unprecedented. I believe the first bitcoin lawsuit is in litigation atm, and that was for breach of contract. I don't know what the original contract terms were for btcst, if someone could link it that would be helpful.  It seems that I remember someone saying that there was a statement made about high risk, blah blah blah you might lose everything, etc. so I don't think there are grounds for breach of contract.  Please disregard this if there is some glaring error in logic, but it seems air-tight to me.

The glaring errors:

Many things are not regulated, yet theft or fraud involving them is criminal. If someone steals apples worth 100000$, there does not need to be a law regulating the apples.

There have been convictions about game money already.

And last: I never accused you specifically of being involved, I just limited my statement of no harm done to the victims. Curious about how many people claim to be victims, but seem to fear the authorities.

I guess the breach of contract in the btcst cause is about lying about how profits were made, or rather not made, ponzi style.

The difference between apples and currency is that apples are a much less universal representation of value.
Hence you can yield currency in much more powerfull ways than apples and with that power comes a whole lot of new responsibilities.
But when you understand human nature you can understand that most people are not very proficient at using such power responsibly.
Before you know it regulation will seem the only sane way to have a currency system at all.

Granted, apples are a different value store, BUT:

Off topic and strawmen argument. Does not explain at all why bitcoin should be exempt from criminal law regarding theft and fraud.


Asserting bitcoins are a law free zone is really harmful to the bitcoin community. It fosters an environment which invites scammers, and makes life hard for honest competition. So my stance is, everyone rejecting any involvement of authorities under all circumstances is harming the project as much as the scammers do.

 

I never claimed that bitcoin should stay lawless.
All i'm saying is you can't compare apples to bitcoins.
If anything i'd say that bitcoin requires more than simple theft laws.
As i said bitcoin is a more powerfull tool than apples and should be embedded in society as such.
And that propably means that it's use needs to be somehow controlled to prevent abuse of the power they can give someone.

[mindphlux]

Has anybody considered to sue MNW for fraud? I'm certainly considering it and am currently investigating how to make this happen...

[Come-from-Beyond]

Has anybody considered to sue MNW for fraud? I'm certainly considering it and am currently investigating how to make this happen...

Suing Matthew is like suing a child. Would u sleep well if u won?

[Rassah]

Has anybody considered to sue MNW for fraud? I'm certainly considering it and am currently investigating how to make this happen...

Well, if you want to throw away another $500, and on an international lawsuit that will likely get nowhere, go for it.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

~DonShrents

All the info one needs to ID the poster. 

I kinda doubt it is Pirate but a troll pretending to be one. I would bet it is Matthew before I would bet it is pirate.

Yes. I am a troll. A troll who is leading the charge against Trendon Shavers with new information and actual contact to his family.

If you think that I am against you (hint: I AM ON YOUR SIDE) then you don't belong in this fight, as your Forum Skills are lacking to a degree that puts you below newb status.

Perhaps you should pay closer attention and look at my recent posts, then look at who is backing me up and already knows my true identity.

~DonShrents

Not a troll, and am privileged to know his true ID. I'm also privileged to know one of Matthew's sockpockets.

All my private PM's will be kept secret, but will consider 100 BTC from anybody who's interested.  Full Disclosure: I have released into the wild a couple of my mundane PM's (thread), but if I get bored with that, I may release the more private ones at a later date (not serious). You wouldn't believe the things that Maria wanted me to do. 

~Bruno~

[peasant]

It's laughable that people want to sue MNW for basically being a jerk. 

[organofcorti]

It's laughable that people want to sue MNW for basically being a jerk. 

We can sue people for being jerks now? Sweet!