A Public Plea for Civility

[BinaryMage]

I. Introduction

Over the past few months, I've observed a general trend on this forum that I think is rather disturbing. We have always disagreed and debated on a vast variety of subjects, but more and more often of late those debates seem to turn into or in some cases start as nothing but 'flame wars', to use the colloquial term. This forum, once a reasonable facsimile of a haven for intellectual and civil discussion, has mutated into a wasteland of mud-slinging, baseless accusations, fear-mongering, utterly nonsensical FUD, mob mentalities, and worst of all, xenophobia. This is most pronounced in the Marketplace and associated sub-forums, but seems to be permeating throughout the extent of these boards.

II. Why The Marketplace Matters

Some of you probably avoid the Marketplace altogether, and wonder if it really matters. Regardless of where you prefer to spend your time, the fact remains that Bitcoin is a currency. Trade is necessary for both a healthy economy and, perhaps more importantly, recruitment of new users.

III. Mud-slinging

We all disagree with each other. If we didn't, we'd have nothing to talk about. But disagreement does not have to translate into insults.
Ad hominem reasoning not only fails to provide any result of worth for either involved party; it poisons the general topic of discussion and makes the thread useless for any future or current readers. One simple insult can create multiple threads of incoherent flaming.

IV. Baseless Accusations

These threads tend to sound like tabloid articles. Inciting headlines, extravagant claims, and no logical evidence whatsoever to back them up. If you have a serious accusation and want results, please make a factual claim and back it up (Example). Factual and civil trade disagreement threads have a much higher rate of resolution. Remember, whether the counterparty is a scammer or not, they are a human being, and a successful dispute resolution is much more likely if you treat them like one.

V. Fear-mongering

This sometimes goes hand-in-hand with the above, but sometimes not insomuch an accusation as chaos-inciting content, often simply links to other threads with an eye-catching title attached. First of all, we do not need multiple different threads to discuss the same thing. Second, if you're going to make extravagant claims, at least take the time to make them yourself.

VI. Utterly Nonsensical FUD

Also known as spam. I receive quite enough of this in my email inbox. If you don't have anything useful or intelligent to post, don't post. It's as simple as that.

VII. Mob Mentalities

Also known as the 'exponential thread growth problem'. Don't take what other people say at face value, and don't simply repeat other's sentiments. All of you have something unique to contribute to discussions. Contribute it!

VIII. Xenophobia

This one concerns me the most, as I think it could have far-reaching implications. Most people who read about Bitcoin and come here have read almost ubiquitously negative press discussing drugs, Ponzi schemes, and ever-imminent collapse. They decided to take a chance and investigate for themselves. What do they find? A community which refuses to do business with anyone relatively new. A community filled with animosity. Half the forums polluted with allegations of Ponzi schemes. In other words, they find exactly what the media told them to expect. Their conclusion? The media is right. Do we really want to embody what the media portrays us as?

IX. Addendum: BS&T

First of all, I will admit that I am most certainly not an unbiased observer. I did my research and invested into BS&T. I have no factual conclusion as to whether it is a Ponzi or not, nor do I think I have enough expertise to surmise a claim. But, regardless of whether BS&T is a ponzi, an innocent company investing in third-world medical care, or an elaborate hoax conceived by Bernie Madoff's hitherto unknown twin, endlessly fretting and arguing about it will accomplish nothing whatsoever.

Those of you with convinced BS&T is a Ponzi scheme, I'm glad you're being cautious with investment. Please refrain from starting hundreds of separate threads stating nothing new whatsoever. Perhaps it is a scam, perhaps not. I know some of you have far superior wisdom which you are ever eager to share, but us mere mortals are still capable of intelligent analysis and decision-making. If BS&T truly is a Ponzi, somehow I suspect we will notice.

X. Conclusion

I'm just some nameless forum member writing another rant, albeit perhaps not on one of the usual subjects. All I ask is that you read and think upon it. Perhaps this won't make any difference. But it certainly wouldn't have if I didn't write it.

Best regards,
BinaryMage

[bbit]

Binary excellent post. I couldn't agree more about your Xenophobia theory (9VIII. Xenophobia).  I don't know how you solve human nature maybe its worth bringing in professionals who know how to solve these sort of things?

For a lot of us we help curate this forum and it does seem an odd number of problems you mentioned above.

[BCB]

+1

Make it a "must read" for the newbees and a few of the oldbees as well.

Thanks.

[bitcoinbear]

I have to agree about the BS&T thing, and it happens on other topics too. There will be multiple threads about the same topic. People, please just reply in the relevant topic, starting a new one just clutters up the forum and makes it harder to find relevant information.

[phillipsjk]

New users are restricted to reduce the number of sock-puppets. However, the best description of this forum I have seen is that "even the trolls have trolls."

Bitcoin is also a currency with irreversible transactions. This makes it a magnet for scammers. It is understandable that people will be cautious after being burned one or more times (and want to warn others to be cautious).

I don't really have any way out to suggest though. The official bitcoin project distanced itself from the forum over a year ago. I think moderators moving threads probably helps clean up the forum quite a bit, but I mainly browse the main discussion section out of habit.

[pointbiz]

+1

[SysRun]

open forums are headless monsters.

it just do what it do.

[gbl08ma]

I completely agree with your post.
When the media does research on the Bitcoin subject (and unfortunately, much of that research nowadays consists on a Google search which never sees the second half of the first page, plus a quick reading of some Wikipedia article), they'll find the biggest Bitcoin forum, and the idea they get of it will be the one that's transmitted to other people.

I've even read on a magazine published in my country that Bitcoins are hard to buy (this, on a story about Armory). Said that way and on that story, it only makes Bitcoin seem more and more obscure, not something you'd expect to pay your things with at the supermarket in a few years, for example.

"In other words, they find exactly what the media told them to expect."
So perhaps we should start by changing the perception the media gets, so people will expect something else as told by the media?

[stochastic]

I. Introduction

Over the past few months, I've observed a general trend on this forum that I think is rather disturbing. We have always disagreed and debated on a vast variety of subjects, but more and more often of late those debates seem to turn into or in some cases start as nothing but 'flame wars', to use the colloquial term. This forum, once a reasonable facsimile of a haven for intellectual and civil discussion, has mutated into a wasteland of mud-slinging, baseless accusations, fear-mongering, utterly nonsensical FUD, mob mentalities, and worst of all, xenophobia. This is most pronounced in the Marketplace and associated sub-forums, but seems to be permeating throughout the extent of these boards.

II. Why The Marketplace Matters

Some of you probably avoid the Marketplace altogether, and wonder if it really matters. Regardless of where you prefer to spend your time, the fact remains that Bitcoin is a currency. Trade is necessary for both a healthy economy and, perhaps more importantly, recruitment of new users.

III. Mud-slinging

We all disagree with each other. If we didn't, we'd have nothing to talk about. But disagreement does not have to translate into insults.
Ad hominem reasoning not only fails to provide any result of worth for either involved party; it poisons the general topic of discussion and makes the thread useless for any future or current readers. One simple insult can create multiple threads of incoherent flaming.

IV. Baseless Accusations

These threads tend to sound like tabloid articles. Inciting headlines, extravagant claims, and no logical evidence whatsoever to back them up. If you have a serious accusation and want results, please make a factual claim and back it up (Example). Factual and civil trade disagreement threads have a much higher rate of resolution. Remember, whether the counterparty is a scammer or not, they are a human being, and a successful dispute resolution is much more likely if you treat them like one.

V. Fear-mongering

This sometimes goes hand-in-hand with the above, but sometimes not insomuch an accusation as chaos-inciting content, often simply links to other threads with an eye-catching title attached. First of all, we do not need multiple different threads to discuss the same thing. Second, if you're going to make extravagant claims, at least take the time to make them yourself.

VI. Utterly Nonsensical FUD

Also known as spam. I receive quite enough of this in my email inbox. If you don't have anything useful or intelligent to post, don't post. It's as simple as that.

VII. Mob Mentalities

Also known as the 'exponential thread growth problem'. Don't take what other people say at face value, and don't simply repeat other's sentiments. All of you have something unique to contribute to discussions. Contribute it!

VIII. Xenophobia

This one concerns me the most, as I think it could have far-reaching implications. Most people who read about Bitcoin and come here have read almost ubiquitously negative press discussing drugs, Ponzi schemes, and ever-imminent collapse. They decided to take a chance and investigate for themselves. What do they find? A community which refuses to do business with anyone relatively new. A community filled with animosity. Half the forums polluted with allegations of Ponzi schemes. In other words, they find exactly what the media told them to expect. Their conclusion? The media is right. Do we really want to embody what the media portrays us as?

IX. Addendum: BS&T

First of all, I will admit that I am most certainly not an unbiased observer. I did my research and invested into BS&T. I have no factual conclusion as to whether it is a Ponzi or not, nor do I think I have enough expertise to surmise a claim. But, regardless of whether BS&T is a ponzi, an innocent company investing in third-world medical care, or an elaborate hoax conceived by Bernie Madoff's hitherto unknown twin, endlessly fretting and arguing about it will accomplish nothing whatsoever.

Those of you with convinced BS&T is a Ponzi scheme, I'm glad you're being cautious with investment. Please refrain from starting hundreds of separate threads stating nothing new whatsoever. Perhaps it is a scam, perhaps not. I know some of you have far superior wisdom which you are ever eager to share, but us mere mortals are still capable of intelligent analysis and decision-making. If BS&T truly is a Ponzi, somehow I suspect we will notice.

X. Conclusion

I'm just some nameless forum member writing another rant, albeit perhaps not on one of the usual subjects. All I ask is that you read and think upon it. Perhaps this won't make any difference. But it certainly wouldn't have if I didn't write it.

Best regards,
BinaryMage

1.  I will be suspicious of any new member that comes out with a product or server for profit before they do something else for the community for free.  Especially if that person will not reveal their real identity.

2.  People will not be civil, polite, and stop flaming or spreading spam until there is consequences for these actions.

[tvbcof]

I personally don't see much of a problem.  The community, as a microcosm of the internet generally, is full of dick-heads.  So what?  I value the fairly unobstructed view into the community psychology and I think that a whole lot of rules and regulations and P's and Q's to watch would make that more foggy.  Maybe the more dick-head-ish tend to be more vocal and obnoxious, but most internet user's will have figured that out by now.

I'm actually more offended by a signature block full of advertising spam than someone calling someone else a naughty word.  But that's just me.

[bitcoinbear]

I guess the thing to do is lead by example. If you stay above the name calling and only post thoughtful responses, and give props to others who do as well, and generally ignore all the immature people, eventually this will be a better place.

[justusranvier]

How many of the people who have a problem with civility will respond in the desired manner to a public plea?

[SgtSpike]

You can plea all you want, but I don't think it'll change things.  This is about as free and unrestricted of a forum as you'll find, which is why it is what it is - a cesspool.  A while back, I attempted to start up a competitor forum that would actually ban people if they weren't sufficiently respectful, among other rules, but was unable to draw a sustainable crowd.

So, I await the next true rival to the forum, that I may move on to someplace less... awful than this.

[bitcoinbear]

You can plea all you want, but I don't think it'll change things.  This is about as free and unrestricted of a forum as you'll find, which is why it is what it is - a cesspool.  A while back, I attempted to start up a competitor forum that would actually ban people if they weren't sufficiently respectful, among other rules, but was unable to draw a sustainable crowd.

So, I await the next true rival to the forum, that I may move on to someplace less... awful than this.

There is the totalitarian way to have good behavior - by rules and punishment - and then there is the libertarian way to have good behavior - by letting people make the choice themselves. We do not have to change the rules, we must  just encourage people to act better.

[Spekulatius]

@ OP:

+1

[Phinnaeus Gage]

+1

Read the OP as well as all the posts leading up to me submitting this one.

~Bruno~

[nimda]

Hence, MNW's FUD tax

[repentance]

I have to agree about the BS&T thing, and it happens on other topics too. There will be multiple threads about the same topic. People, please just reply in the relevant topic, starting a new one just clutters up the forum and makes it harder to find relevant information.

I post on messageboards which enforce this rule and it has pros and cons.  Very often people won't read more than the last page of a long thread, so threads frequently get derailed by people asking questions which have already been answered in the thread.  It gets very old, very fast.  

One feature which helps make mega-threads manageable is the ability to pull up all of a user's posts in a thread.  This would be extremely valuable if people were only interested in reading posts by service operators or others commenting "officially".  In the Bicoinica threads, it would have been useful to be able to pull up all Amir's or Tihan's posts in those threads.

I think that the most recent forums split has made it even harder to find important information.  Important information related to services is posted just about anywhere and is often found in counter-intuitive places.  The Intersango megathread is a good example of this.  From September, they won't be accepting GBP transfers until they find a new bank but that information is buried in a general Marketplace thread, not in Service Announcements, Service Discussion or Trading, which are the places you'd expect to find that kind of information.

People start new threads when they feel their particular point or question is being lost in the general noise or ignored.  Sometimes it's ignored because people consider it irrelevant or it's the 7,000th time a particular point has been made or question asked.  Merging threads or locking new threads about an existing topic (with a link to the existing thread) are options which might be useful but they require more pro-active moderation than is usual around here (if you're going to merge or split threads, you need to do it early otherwise it just creates a mess).

[RoloTonyBrownTown]

While I totally agree BinaryMage, I firmly believe that for things to change, the mods need to start working harder, and actually moderating this place.   A stricter stance on everything you listed in the OP would greatly help keep this place more civil.   That, along with actually merging multiple threads rather than having 12 on the same subject would go a long way to making this a usable forum again.

Right now it's a pretty horrible place to be, which is NOT a good thing when we're talking the primary site for all things bitcoin.  This is where new people to Bitcoin will arrive after 1 google search, and right now I very much doubt they'd stick around.

[evolve]

Asking for civility on the open Internet is like asking a dog not to drag its ass on the carpet; it is an exercise in futility.