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Author Topic: I've got what you need. High quality stuff. Safe and anonymous.  (Read 2494 times)
ThomasV
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May 28, 2011, 09:01:54 AM
 #1

I am getting tired of journalists and bloggers repeating the same story over again, namely that Bitcoin will help people engaging in all sorts of illegal activities. This is not supported by any evidence so far. I would like to hear from a serious journalist who actually bought drugs using bitcoins, and who reports about it.

Trade requires confidence between both parties. If you buy illegal products from someone who decides to remain anonymous, then you run a risk. If you need to give them your identity or physical address, then the risk you take is high.

So, if you are a wannabe-scammer trying to make your first bitcoins (there have been a few attempts lately), here is what I propose. You will not only make yourself wealthy, you will also help the community and fight some commonly spread misconceptions about Bitcoin.

#Create an anonymous drugs store. Propose various illegal products that you do not have.
#Never actually buy or own drugs. This could attract yourself problems. Never do anything illegal.
#Use Tor. Never reveal your identity. Buyers will need to provide a name and shipping address.
#Advertise your business on relevant forums.
#Take orders, get paid by naive buyers.
#Use sockpuppets to write positive recommendations about your service. This will attract more buyers.
#If somebody complains directly to you, ignore them, unless they are rich (see below).
#If a customer complains about you in the forum, use sockpuppets to similarly complain about competing drug sellers; this is what competition is about. You could even take preventive actions.
#If a customer sent you more than $100, blackmail them, to have them pay more. Threaten to disclose their name, shipping address, and the bitcoin address they used for the transaction; it might be possible to link it to someone through the block chain.
#If blackmail does not work, you might actually report their identity to the local police where they live. Since they are drug buyers, they are likely to have drugs at their place. Be careful to remain anonymous. You might also want to report the case to their parents/neighbours, depending on the case.

I hope my post will foster happy trades and enlightened discussions.

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FreeMoney
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May 28, 2011, 09:15:58 AM
 #2

No one cares if you do drugs man.

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Chucksta
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May 28, 2011, 10:12:20 AM
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LOL, hilarious Smiley
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May 28, 2011, 10:39:03 AM
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"Never do anything illegal" [snip] "blackmail them".

What jurisdiction *is* that?

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Dansker
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May 28, 2011, 10:50:12 AM
 #5

"Never do anything illegal" [snip] "blackmail them".

What jurisdiction *is* that?

ThomasV's own made-up jurisdiction...

Also, taking money for falsely offering to sell illegal stuff, could be illegal, even if the buyer was doing something illegal as well. (fraud).

ThomasV
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May 28, 2011, 11:00:36 AM
 #6

"Never do anything illegal" [snip] "blackmail them".

What jurisdiction *is* that?

ThomasV's own made-up jurisdiction...

Also, taking money for falsely offering to sell illegal stuff, could be illegal, even if the buyer was doing something illegal as well. (fraud).

yeah, I should have said: "never do anything illegal IRL"

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kaktus
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May 28, 2011, 11:01:38 AM
 #7

Better idea

#Use Tor to protect from signals intelligence.

#Use mail / dead drops

#Use Bitcoin and strongly anonymity funds by using tumblers

#Now customers don't know their source of supply to turn on

#Now the DEA can not use their massive human intelligence networks to move inwards toward the supply of drugs, leaving a trail of needlessly ruined lives in their path

#DEA is reduced to intercepting mail, which they are fail at due to the enormous volumes sent.

#Dead drops remove all interception risk and can serve local crowds

#DEA are reduced to a technical threat model, I wonder if they have the resources of NSA or CIA to throw at drug users

#Because if orders are encrypted with GPG they can't learn where product is being shipped

#Unless they are the vendor, or compromise them. So they can still move outwards from a source of drugs and do reverse stings

#But if customers stick with working with one or two vendors they will not likely be attacked in this way

#We can not remove all risk but this model is revolutionary for drug distribution

#Some will still be busted, but not nearly as many

#People who pick good vendors will never be busted unless customs hits the mail lottery

#Scammers are always a problem but that is what webs of trust are for

#If you buy drugs from people who are not anonymous DEA will rape them with their human intelligence network of undercovers and snitches that rivals the Stasi networks

#Unless you build a teleporting device we always have the issue of DEA being able to move outwards, removing their ability to go inwards is a huge achievement though

#Their resources can be drained even if they are acting as vendors, by using fake boxes and dead drops. Go ahead and spend a month doing 24/7 surveillance on a box that had some personal use drugs go to it, you will bankrupt yourself

#If you buy illegal drugs you always run a risk. This model lowers the risk to less than other models do and will lower the bust rates tremendously especially if it spreads to tens of thousands of participants or more. 'Friends' flip on 'Friends' but flipping on anonymous is pointless

How about you help 'the community' by aiding the non-violent drug groups? Do you not realize that the overwhelming majority of the ills associated with the illegal drug trade are the direct result of the fucking prohibition you seem to support? Did you really fall victim to statist propaganda so badly that you think their war on drugs is anything more than a an attack against society? They are splitting society apart by marginalizing and demonizing sections of it then brainwashing you with the help of the mass media and public education systems. They do this to keep control on society and to make money from their prisons and police. Why are you so dense as to not be able to see it? They are pure evil sub-human scum and don't even deserve to have been born. They leave a path of destruction everywhere they go and then they convince you that they are the good people. They are the fucking criminals and I seriously seriously seriously can not wait for the day that every single last DEA agent is brought to justice for what they have done to our communities.
rezin777
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May 28, 2011, 02:08:51 PM
 #8

Help the community by attempting theft, fraud, blackmail and slander? Awesome idea!  Angry

If you think drugs are bad, you should be helping people to get away from drugs, not preying on them.
Fiyasko
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May 28, 2011, 03:49:06 PM
 #9

His reasons for doing this (I assume) is to create a Massive, Fake, And totally disfunctional drug/buy/sell operation, And if Many of these are created (wich i assume he wants) Then Nobody is going to try to buy/sell drugs, Why? because 90% of the sites will be scams, Causing the whole media that goes "OMG LOOK DRUGS WITH NO PAPERTRAIL" to simply loose thier money when they attempt to "bait" the seller, And simply Scam themselves. Causing the media to go "well shit guys, anyone whos trying it is getting scammed, We cant even booby trap them"

Causing the media to shut the fuck up about "how bitcoin is a national threat", Because its not. Seriously, You mayaswel fucking yell at Every money sending agency in the world, Sure they have papertrails, But Fuck dude, it's not like they know what the money was for, Only the To/From Factors

Wich uhhh HERP A FUCKING DERP Doesnt get them shit, If the DEA shows up at your door for accepting a $200USD wire transfer, Tell them to fuckoff.
the only damn differnce with bitcoins is that they dont know where or who you are. Wich is why bitcoin was created.

We are sick and tired of being fucking tracked. We dont like it, Your making us paranoid, Not the otherway around.

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ThomasV
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May 28, 2011, 03:50:14 PM
 #10

Help the community by attempting theft, fraud, blackmail and slander? Awesome idea!  Angry

If you think drugs are bad, you should be helping people to get away from drugs, not preying on them.

Perhaps I should make it clear that I was being ironical. :-)

I do not care whether drugs are good or bad. My point is that they are illegal, and that too many
people believe that Bitcoin will facilitate the trade of illegal things. I could have written the same
message about carrots, if carrots were illegal.

My point is that you need trust in order to remotely trade with someone.
If a seller wants to be anonymous, then you cannot trust him: he can scam you, or even blackmail you.

I guess that if you want to buy drugs, it is "safer" to meet a dealer on the street than to use bitcoins.
However, in nearly every news article about Bitcoin, you can read the word "drugs". That is ridiculous.

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billyjoeallen
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May 28, 2011, 04:16:19 PM
 #11

so this is how you would sell drugs almost risk-free: You post an anonymous public announcement (advertisement) online for drugs for sale. The message says to respond via pgp-encrypted e-mail and a public key is provided. Give them 20 email addresses to reply to, only one of which you control, the others being legitimate, but not yours. you simply promise to send the gps coordinates or "treasure map" for the stash to your respondent. provide the BTC address  you want the payment sent to. when you get the bitcoins, you stash the drugs, send directions to the stash, rinse and repeat.

What buyer would choose to do business this way? someone desperate or with a high risk tolerance. You would initially have to charge them substantially below-market prices to compensate somewhat for the risk, but after several successful transactions you could raise your prices and likely increase your volume. The funny part would be attempted law-enforcement stings where you get the money and then get away. Sure, the BTC would need to be laundered or held onto until the statute of limitations ran out, but laundering BTC is trivially easy.

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BitterTea
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May 28, 2011, 04:34:58 PM
 #12

Or, maybe it is the case that an effective anonymous drug market makes things safer for all parties involved.

For instance, Silk Road has built in reputation, escrow, dispute mediation, and pseudo-anonymity.

Reputation
This helps buyers by making sure they are ordering from trusted individuals, and also gives them recourse against bad trades. I'm not sure if there is anything preventing abuse by malicious individuals that want to harm a reputation, but I don't see it as that large a risk.

Consider the alternative
In real life, you may know nothing about the previous trades of a dealer or his level of trustworthiness, increasing your risk.

Escrow
This protects both buyer and seller from fraud.

Consider the alternative
Once you hand over your cash, it's gone.

Dispute mediation
In the event that the buyer reports that they are not satisfied, site staff attempt to resolve the dispute. No idea how they do this, but the fact that it is available is all that matters.

Consider the alternative
If the buyer or seller gets ripped off, they cannot go to the police as their trade is illegal. What generally happens is that one or both parties resort to violence.

Pseudy-anonymity
The buyer must supply a shipping address, and the seller must have a return address, but there is no reason that either of those addresses must be explicitly associated with the individual more than the time necessary to send/receive the shipment. This further provides protection from violence, both from the other party and state police forces.

Consider the alternative
It's hard to stay anonymous when you have to meet someone in person. Not only does this allow for the use of violence against you, but doing so also potentially offers yourself up to undercover police for arrest or worse.

What's really more dangerous, Silk Road or the "war on drugs"? One helps facilitate non-violent trade, the other produces a militarization of the police and criminals.
rezin777
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May 28, 2011, 04:39:39 PM
 #13

Perhaps I should make it clear that I was being ironical. :-)

Oh.

However, in nearly every news article about Bitcoin, you can read the word "drugs". That is ridiculous.

Indeed.
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May 28, 2011, 05:14:28 PM
 #14

Like drugs aren't traded on fiat...

If you don't like drugs, don't do them
If you don't want your friends doing drugs, then maybe you shouldn't befriend such people to begin with
If you don't want your kids doing drugs, then educate them instead of crying about it to your government like 10yo. Wait, if you're that dumb, you can't educate your kids can you?

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May 29, 2011, 05:26:17 AM
 #15

Causing the media to shut the fuck up about "how bitcoin is a national threat", Because its not. Seriously, You mayaswel fucking yell at Every money sending agency in the world, Sure they have papertrails, But Fuck dude, it's not like they know what the money was for, Only the To/From Factors

Wich uhhh HERP A FUCKING DERP Doesnt get them shit, If the DEA shows up at your door for accepting a $200USD wire transfer, Tell them to fuckoff.
the only damn differnce with bitcoins is that they dont know where or who you are. Wich is why bitcoin was created.

Welcome to the difference between intelligence and evidence. The DEA can send WU to a drug dealer and follow it back to them, not the case with Bitcoin if it is properly used. Sure, the dealer could tell the DEA to fuck off but its far more likely that the DEA will simply put them under surveillance and then bust them with drugs. An even more worrying attack is the DEA can can learn the account information of a dealer and watch everyone who sends money and trace in reverse. Again, sending money to a drug dealer may not be evidence but it is certainly intelligence.

Quote
My point is that you need trust in order to remotely trade with someone.
If a seller wants to be anonymous, then you cannot trust him: he can scam you, or even blackmail you.

And buying drugs in the street can get you robbed or killed and chances are high that there is not a huge market leaving reviews on the dealers product to immediately warn the community if it has any problems, and chances are high that the dude on the corner selling drugs gives a fuck less about you but the vendor trying to make his reputation online has publicly viewable reviews to worry about. you need trust to trade with ANYONE, your relative locations don't matter. And if you deal drugs and don't maintain your anonymity, unless you have a small army backing you up the DEA can fuck you because they have soooooooo many snitches and undercovers. Can't snitch on anonymous. People who sell drugs with out being securely pseudonymous are begging to get busted.

Quote
I guess that if you want to buy drugs, it is "safer" to meet a dealer on the street than to use bitcoins.

Nope it is way safer to buy drugs online than in the street, for the customer for the community and particularly for the vendor.

Quote
so this is how you would sell drugs almost risk-free: You post an anonymous public announcement (advertisement) online for drugs for sale. The message says to respond via pgp-encrypted e-mail and a public key is provided.

Just go to a .onion and sell there are a few drug forums with public registration now. E-mail vending is old school. Use mail for long distance but dead drops for local.

Quote
What buyer would choose to do business this way? someone desperate or with a high risk tolerance. You would initially have to charge them substantially below-market prices to compensate somewhat for the risk, but after several successful transactions you could raise your prices and likely increase your volume.

Sourcing online gets cheaper than street prices on almost every drug except heroin/coke/meth in some cases, is generally regarded as very safe. Pretty much if the vendor you pick is good, your only risk is interception which is a small risk. Also sourcing online opens you up to a global market. In one nation the price of a gram of a certain drug might be $80, in another $300. So prices you can get from the global market are the global low in most cases, then people resell locally in areas where the prices are higher (best to do dead drops for local). Plus with web of trust you only need to trust one persons judgement and you will be substantially protected.

Sourcing online is way safer for customers primarily because there are vendors with expensive reputations at stake. If a vendor sends a bad batch of drugs out, everyone knows as soon as the first person finds out. Also people online tend to be far safer than people on the street and there is access to all kinds of sophisticated analysis equipment to make sure drugs are as advertised. When is the last time some street drug user got an NMR done on their drugs to test quality? They don't even use reagent tests for the most part! Online drugs: highest quality drugs (cuz people in source countries ship directly to customers and remove the chain of people who would otherwise cut the drugs), cheapest prices (due to global price differences, online you will almost always find at least some drugs at way cheaper prices than they are in your area), only safe way to deal, way more intelligent harm reduction community and systems to protect from scammers and such. If a customer picks one good vendor who is not LE and stick with them they are not likely to ever get busted.




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May 29, 2011, 05:28:32 AM
 #16

How about the number of people who buy drugs with cash?
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