Contribute To Bitcoin Economy...

[Muhammed Zakir]

I think OgNasty expressed a valid point, also if the forum staff will put a rule don't you think a lot of users will 'bypass' it? This is the unique reason why buying & selling (or have more than one) forum account is not forbidden... because it is impossible to stop this practice.

You can answer my one question? What benefit does the forum get from multiple accounts (especially those accounts created using one IP address)? Any good reason why is it allowed?

Can't you see what TerminatorXL is doing? Posting with an alt. One of the best example. Hope that clears your doubt.

Also regarding members going against the rule. Laws are as well broken. That means there shouldn't be any law? Saying that as well does not make sense. Rules can atleast TRY to stop it.

People think

Accounts are sold = Be more careful.
Accounts aren't sold because staff take care of it = Be less careful.

[hilariousandco]

Hilarious, let's see what you've gone and wrote.

>Some wannabe hack journalist
Devoid of content (other than anger). Are you trying to say this person aspires to be a hack journalist, that he is a hack journalist, or that he merely aspires to be a journalist? What you got here, right off the bat, is whatchamacall an unsound formula. Unparsable.

I'm not angry. I'm sure all three apply to him in some way as I'm sure he wants to be taken seriously as a journalist, but writing baseless waffle on a bitcoin blog he has a long way to go to achieve even anything near the title of a 'hack'.

>spamming
>invents a conspiracy
More loaded language. I understand that you're angry & feel attacked, but unless you're simply venting, try for more neutral language.

Again, not angry and don't feel attacked, but maybe take your own advice here? (see the op).

>more venting
More venting.

TL;DR: Please, when posting in my thread, try to address the topic & not use it as a soapbox to lash out at the h8ors from.
ty.

I don't see what there is to address here. This thread is just your futile venting from your alt troll account. What are you actually trying to achieve here? Care to actually put forward some solutions that are actually worth something rather than just whinging and being sarcastic?

[erikalui]

Can't you see what TerminatorXL is doing? Posting with an alt. One of the best example. Hope that clears your doubt.

I dint know that the forum is benefiting from TX's posts. Then why they say he is trolling?

People think

Accounts are sold = Be more careful.
Accounts aren't sold because staff take care of it = Be less careful.

So you mean since accounts are being sold, scams would be less as people will try to investigate before trading/trusting a person? Does every member here follow this and truly investigate if the account was sold or not? By checking the seclog? Is that enough to know if the account was bought or sold?

If account selling is allowed, why can't there be a list or thread where the account buyer/seller state their trade in open? Wouldn't that make it more better and prove that it's worth it? When it happens in the private, why then say that people will move outside the forum/have private transactions which would be worse.

As of now, account selling takes place in private and not in the open. If you are trying to say this decreases scams, sorry to say but it is increasing day in and day out. So many newbies are getting scammed by the same scammer/old scammers as they create new accounts or members have sold their trusted accounts.

[TerminatorXL]

[...]
Can't you see what TerminatorXL is doing? Posting with an alt. One of the best example. Hope that clears your doubt.

This thread is about accounts being sold, not alt accounts. I have created this account, free of charge.
If you wish to discuss alt accounts, please stop derailing my thread & start your own.

[...]
Accounts are sold = Be more careful.
Accounts aren't sold because staff take care of it = Be less careful.

No. A false dichotomy. Covered several times in this very thread.
Knowing that stealing is against the law doesn't make me leave my wallet in the middle of the street. OTOH, since there are IRL cops enforcing laws, I don't sleep with a Glock under my pillow & still get robbed. So I guess I can afford to be less careful.

[TerminatorXL]

[...]
What are you actually trying to achieve here? Care to actually put forward some solutions that are actually worth something rather than just whinging and being sarcastic?

Do you read before typing, or is that sort of thing strictly for teh plebes?

[...]Let's not keep treading over the same ground. I've outlined what should be done:
 1. prohibit bitcointalk account sales in general
 2. enforce the policy in the market section, like you enforce "no drugs/guns/CP"
 3. if sufficient evidence exists* of account no longer being used by original owner, ban it.
 4. if sufficient evidence exists* of a user selling accounts, ban it.
 5. Tell n00bs that accounts may be bought and sold off-forum.
     Tell them that the simple fact that account sales are forbidden doesn't imply that it never happens.
     Tell them about the birds and the bees & the Easter Bunny, if you think so little of their intelligence.
     Tell them not to leave their money on the street and expect it to stay there, even though stealing is forbidden.
     Teach them about life, Salty!

I mean, you already educate them with "default trust," because they wouldn't know who to trust without it

* You can spot people avoiding bans, and (likely) don't require absolute proof. This shouldn't be any different.

Please read the whole thread before posting, otherwise I'll need to repeat points previously covered - unfair to those who are actually following the thread.
ty.

[SaltySpitoon]

^^^^
>the harm that some laws do
Sure. Just like some foods can be rotten. Extrapolating from this that *all* food is rotten & thus we should stop eating is nonsense.
This forum has some, albeit vague, unformalized and selectively enforced, laws rules. Are you arguing that these should be tossed, because of the "harm that some laws do"?

>but then they would make another and sell via a different method.

[...]I'd be happy if account dealing was done outside of the forum. This would make trading in bitcointalk accounts less frictionless, require more wits than simply making posts in the Digital Goods/Auctions subs, and thus less profitable.
Less profitable = less financial incentive. Take away financial incentive, and, as my rudimentary knowledge of economics suggests, will happen less.
[...]

Let's not keep treading over the same ground. I've outlined what should be done:
 1. prohibit bitcointalk account sales in general
 2. enforce the policy in the market section, like you enforce "no drugs/guns/CP"
 3. if sufficient evidence exists* of account no longer being used by original owner, ban it.
 4. if sufficient evidence exists* of a user selling accounts, ban it.
 5. Tell n00bs that accounts may be bought and sold off-forum.
     Tell them that the simple fact that account sales are forbidden doesn't imply that it never happens.
     Tell them about the birds and the bees & the Easter Bunny, if you think so little of their intelligence.
     Tell them not to leave their money on the street and expect it to stay there, even though stealing is forbidden.
     Teach them about life, Salty!

I mean, you already educate them with "default trust," because they wouldn't know who to trust without it

* You can spot people avoiding bans, and (likely) don't require absolute proof. This shouldn't be any different.

See, the problem is you keep drawing false equivilancies trying to prove your null point. Rotten food, rape, murder, etc have absolutely no bearing on anything we are talking about here, and you just keep saying the same ideas over and over, even though they have been proven wrong.

Ok, if we ban the sales in general, you are right, people will stop posting about it here. You are correct.

"Just like we enforce the no drugs/guns/CP" Again, correct, we can remove these things from out site. But what you are asking is that we prevent these things from going on on other sites. If people do shady things through IRC or what have you that has absolutely no effect on this forum. If people sell accounts through IRC or what have you that still effects the forum.

Now we are getting somewhere. "If sufficient evidence exists of a user selling accounts, ban it" Ok, who is going to be the judge? Where do we draw the line as to what is sufficient? If I'm 50% sure that you bought that account you are posting on right now, does that give me the right to ban it? What evidence do we use to prove that someone bought an account? Are we going to use our non existant user identification program, or are we going to listen to trolls posting in meta to decide if an account has been purchased or sold?

your proposition opens a whole new can of worms. "If I think so little of their intelligence" to have to warn people that anonymous online non reversable payments can be dangerous if you don't know what you are doing? Isn't it more insulting to someone's intelligence to try to protect them with futile measures against issues that they can prevent themselves? We have two pages of discussion saying that people scamming with purchased accounts is nearly non existant and there are no proven cases besides someone who posted something out of the ordinary before scamming. Why would you want to open up a way for moderator abuse for a nonexistant issue, other than that its "embarassing" to you for whatever reason.

The only way you are going to understand why you are wrong is if you go manage your own forum and try whatever you want to stop account sales. Let me know how that goes.

[hilariousandco]

[...]
What are you actually trying to achieve here? Care to actually put forward some solutions that are actually worth something rather than just whinging and being sarcastic?

Do you read before typing, or is that sort of thing strictly for teh plebes?

[...]Let's not keep treading over the same ground. I've outlined what should be done:
 1. prohibit bitcointalk account sales in general
 2. enforce the policy in the market section, like you enforce "no drugs/guns/CP"
 3. if sufficient evidence exists* of account no longer being used by original owner, ban it.
 4. if sufficient evidence exists* of a user selling accounts, ban it.
 5. Tell n00bs that accounts may be bought and sold off-forum.
     Tell them that the simple fact that account sales are forbidden doesn't imply that it never happens.
     Tell them about the birds and the bees & the Easter Bunny, if you think so little of their intelligence.
     Tell them not to leave their money on the street and expect it to stay there, even though stealing is forbidden.
     Teach them about life, Salty!

I mean, you already educate them with "default trust," because they wouldn't know who to trust without it

* You can spot people avoiding bans, and (likely) don't require absolute proof. This shouldn't be any different.

Please read the whole thread before posting, otherwise I'll need to repeat points previously covered - unfair to those who are actually following the thread.
ty.

No, I saw them, but they don't fall under solutions that are actually worth something, and they've all been shot down multiple times time and time again by every single person who has ever proposed them.

[Muhammed Zakir]

Can't you see what TerminatorXL is doing? Posting with an alt. One of the best example. Hope that clears your doubt.

I dint know that the forum is benefiting from TX's posts. Then why they say he is trolling?

I don't think there was an explanation needed for that statement as you(we) were talking about alts not TerminatorXL's post. I said that using alts is indeed helpful for things we need to hide our real accounts. For example, scam busting, drama, going against a person/community etc... TerminatorXL is doing one of the things and it is clearly seen. I don't think I need to explain this further.

So you mean since accounts are being sold, scams would be less as people will try to investigate before trading/trusting a person?

We need to investigate if we are doing a trade. People will be more careful knowing this fact.

Does every member here follow this and truly investigate if the account was sold or not? By checking the seclog? Is that enough to know if the account was bought or sold?

Security Log isn't enough. People can't truly know whether an account is sold or not. Only way we can assume is to ask a signed message considering Bitcoin address can be sold.

If account selling is allowed, why can't there be a list or thread where the account buyer/seller state their trade in open?

Because we can't create a list of full bought/sold accounts and who bought it. Another reason is, having an alt is okay.

Wouldn't that make it more better and prove that it's worth it?

Don't think so if you think.

When it happens in the private, why then say that people will move outside the forum/have private transactions which would be worse.

Now we can atleast know some of the sold accounts, what if it took outside forum? Higher chance is for "won't".

As of now, account selling takes place in private and not in the open. If you are trying to say this decreases scams, sorry to say but it is increasing day in and day out. So many newbies are getting scammed by the same scammer/old scammers as they create new accounts or members have sold their trusted accounts.

Newbies always get scammed as they aren't familar with it but this doesn't mean we shouldn't try to prevent it. The answer is we can't but we can reduce it. Banning sold accounts are not the way, though. Even trusted members turn out to be scammers. It doesn't increase nor decrease by a greater percentage. Both are balanced and trying to change one side will result in bigger problem. Scammers scam. Newbies are being victims as they ain't experienced here. Newbies are victims of most scams IRL too. There is no solution other than wiping scammers which is impossible out there.

This thread is about accounts being sold, not alt accounts. I have created this account, free of charge.
If you wish to discuss alt accounts, please stop derailing my thread & start your own.

I don't want to discuss about your alts. erikalui asked why alts are allowed and I answered.

No. A false dichotomy. Covered several times in this very thread.
Knowing that stealing is against the law doesn't make me leave my wallet in the middle of the street. OTOH, since there are IRL cops enforcing laws, I don't sleep with a Glock under my pillow & still get robbed. So I guess I can afford to be less careful.

Leaving a wallet in middle of a street and being less careful is different. Besides, virtual and real is different and we can't compare everything.

[TerminatorXL]

>See, the problem is you keep drawing false equivilancies trying to prove your null point.  have absolutely no bearing on anything we are talking about here
Let's take it down to basics:

1. "Rape, murder, etc" - things we do not want to happen. Laws, rules, etc. are created to minimize the occurrence of these these things. (yes/no?)
2. "account dealing" - things we do not want to happen. Laws, rules, etc. are could be created to minimize the occurrence of these these things. (yes/no?)

See the similarity my analogy tries to highlight?

[...]
No, I saw them, but they don't fall under solutions that are actually worth something, and they've all been shot down multiple times time and time again by every single person who has ever proposed them.

If you are not willing to discuss why these solutions are worthless, responding with invective is simply rude, no better than a child saying NO U!
If you have nothing to add to the conversation, please delete your posts and stop derailing my thread.
ty.

<more>

[marcotheminer]

You're seriously comparing rape/murder to selling forum accounts?

[Quickseller]

2. "account dealing" - things we do not want to happen. Laws, rules, etc. are could be created to minimize the occurrence of these these things. (yes/no?)

I don't see a lot of people saying that we don't want account dealing to happen. Nor have you given any reason or argument backed by facts as to why account trading is bad.

[hilariousandco]

You're seriously comparing rape/murder to selling forum accounts?

Exactly. Don't forget CP too. When selling forum accounts becomes against the law we may rethink the policy, but currently it's not.

2. "account dealing" - things we do not want to happen. Laws, rules, etc. are could be created to minimize the occurrence of these these things. (yes/no?)

I don't see a lot of people saying that we don't want account dealing to happen. Nor have you given any reason or argument backed by facts as to why account trading is bad.

When he says we, he means I. Not everyone is against the sale of accounts here but even those that are tend to agree with or accept the logic of why they're allowed to be sold here.

[TerminatorXL]

You're seriously comparing rape/murder to selling forum accounts?

It's called an analogy
    a·nal·o·gy
    əˈnaləjē/
    noun
    noun: analogy; plural noun: analogies
        a comparison between two things, typically on the basis of their structure and for the purpose of explanation or clarification.

Never stop learning, friend!
You are welcome.

[erikalui]

I don't think there was an explanation needed for that statement as you(we) were talking about alts not TerminatorXL's post. I said that using alts is indeed helpful for things we need to hide our real accounts. For example, scam busting, drama, going against a person/community etc... TerminatorXL is doing one of the things and it is clearly seen. I don't think I need to explain this further.

My question: What benefit does the forum get from multiple accounts (especially those accounts created using one IP address)?

Your answer: I said that using alts is indeed helpful for things we need to hide our real accounts.

I don't need any explanation now as you can't understand my question.

We need to investigate if we are doing a trade. People will be more careful knowing this fact.

A newbie doesn't generally check a TRUSTED user's account. It's like generalizing that all NEWBIES already have been stalking this forum and are aware about ACCOUNT SALES. When I was a newbie, I knew nothing about this and basically went by the trust received by the account.

Security Log isn't enough. People can't truly know whether an account is sold or not. Only way we can assume is to ask a signed message considering Bitcoin address can be sold.

So every time I or any other member trades here should ask the user for a signed message?  

Because we can't create a lost of full bought/sold accounts and who bought it. Another reason is, having an alt is okay.

So why allow it and say it will make a user more aware? Aware of what? Of the fact that accounts are sold/bought? That point is discussed earlier that why is it harmful to sell a TRUSTED account.

Now we can atleast know some of the sold accounts, what if it took outside forum? Higher chance is for "won't".

No use of the awareness except that members earn by selling/buying accounts.

Newbies always get scammed as they aren't familar with it but this doesn't mean we shouldn't try to prevent it. The answer is we can't but we can reduce it. Banning sold accounts are not the way, though. Even trusted members turn out to be scammers. It doesn't increase nor decrease by a greater percentage. Both are balanced and trying to change one side will result in bigger problem. Scammers scam. Newbies are being victims as they ain't experienced here. Newbies are victims of most scams IRL too. There is no solution other than wiping scammers which is impossible out there.

Hmm...So the final result is, newbies will always get scammed if they don't investigate and they might not even know how to investigate. Preventing account sales can atleast decrease it IMO but nobody wants to even try this method. People who are happy earning money by account sales and newbies are sad that they need to suffer because of that.

[Muhammed Zakir]

You're seriously comparing rape/murder to selling forum accounts?

What he is trying to say is

   Illegal
      |
  ____|___________
 |                |    
Rape/murder     Account sale

I hope you understand the structure is long. You have snipped many things to achieve your goal. I really like to say "never stop learning" but I think "think twice or thrice before you do a thing" fits better.

@erikalui: Simple answer, no benefit.

[TerminatorXL]

2. "account dealing" - things we do not want to happen. Laws, rules, etc. are could be created to minimize the occurrence of these these things. (yes/no?)

I don't see a lot of people saying that we don't want account dealing to happen. Nor have you given any reason or argument backed by facts as to why account trading is bad.

The post was a reply to Salty, I understand that you want to sell as many accounts as possible - you're an account dealer
The reason the "(yes/no)" thingy is stuck in there is 'coz I want to narrow down exactly where Salty [not you] stands on the issue.

If he feels that it's great that accounts are being bought & sold, then all further discussion of plausibility of enforcement is moot, don't you agree?

Hope this clears things up

@Muhammed Zakir: have no idea of what you're trying to say.

[...]When selling forum accounts becomes against the law we may rethink the policy, but currently it's not.
[...]

That's what this thread is about, changing the forum policy. Posted, appropriately, in the Meta section.

[SaltySpitoon]

>See, the problem is you keep drawing false equivilancies trying to prove your null point.  have absolutely no bearing on anything we are talking about here
Let's take it down to basics:

1. "Rape, murder, etc" - things we do not want to happen. Laws, rules, etc. are created to minimize the occurrence of these these things. (yes/no?)
2. "account dealing" - things we do not want to happen. Laws, rules, etc. are could be created to minimize the occurrence of these these things. (yes/no?)

See the similarity my analogy tries to highlight?
<more>

No, you are using rape/murder's lack of 100% enforcement as justification for your point that even if it is unenforcable, you should try. You say, well rapes and murders aren't 100% solved, but there are still laws! Which is 100% incorrect on all levels.

First, selling accounts whether it is against the rules or not is not a crime, nor is it morally indecent to the same extent a violent crime is. You keep claiming that rape and murder are not 100% stoppable, but there are still laws against them. It is enforcable with life in prison or a death sentence, which is enough to disuade most people. Banning an account wouldn't dissuade anyone who is selling accounts. Second, if you kill someone, there is a body, forensic evidence, etc. If people didn't publicly post about account selling, there would be absolutely no way of knowing that it was happening. What you propose is that moderators scattershot ban people in a completely unfair way, again to solve such a miniscule problem, or what you percieve as a problem.

You are missing the forest for a shrub. Trying to enact a ban on account selling will cause far greater problems. I dont know how you aren't understanding this, but at this point I don't especially care. You have your answer, the community has weighed in. I don't see anyone supporting you, not that it would matter anyway. If you don't like account sales create your own forum, fix the problems you percieve here, and if your rules work better, then survival of the fittest will take its course. I can only argue that the sky is blue so much before it doesn't matter if you keep claiming that it is red.

[hilariousandco]

[...]
No, I saw them, but they don't fall under solutions that are actually worth something, and they've all been shot down multiple times time and time again by every single person who has ever proposed them.

If you are not willing to discuss why these solutions are worthless, responding with invective is simply rude, no better than a child saying NO U!
If you have nothing to add to the conversation, please delete your posts and stop derailing my thread.
ty.

<more>

I don't think I'm the rude one here given your continual condescension, but I and others have already stated why your suggestions are ultimately futile and don't solve anything, you're just not reading my posts:

The forum approves of this happening. Banning the sale of forum accounts right on this forum wouldn't be that hard, would it?

It wouldn't be hard to say the sale of forum accounts are now banned, but it wouldn't do anything. It would just push their sale off site.

You're seriously comparing rape/murder to selling forum accounts?

It's called an analogy
    a·nal·o·gy
    əˈnaləjē/
    noun
    noun: analogy; plural noun: analogies
        a comparison between two things, typically on the basis of their structure and for the purpose of explanation or clarification.

Never stop learning, friend!
You are welcome.

But your analogy is ridiculously extreme and irrelevant.

irrelevant
ɪˈrɛlɪv(ə)nt/
adjective
adjective: irrelevant

not connected with or relevant to something.

[erikalui]

You're seriously comparing rape/murder to selling forum accounts?

Exactly. Don't forget CP too. When selling forum accounts becomes against the law we may rethink the policy, but currently it's not.

A very wise (may be) person has already argued and compared these two things:

Selling a "trusted" paypal account is certainly not a crime. Many things are used for money laundering and illegal things. I hear knifes are dangerous killing instruments, yet people use them daily to butter their bread. Dont jump to conclusions, I cant speak for paypal, but most bitcointalk account sales probably happen for paid signatures.

Rules are rules just as laws of a country. If one doesn't follow them, they basically are fraudulent people/criminals/psychos. But saying that rules/laws shouldn't be implemented because it will take place in the private/outside the country is completely illogical.  

[TerminatorXL]

[angry nonsense.]

I am now politely asking you to stop shitting up my thread. Either back what you say with, as a minimum, attempt at rationality, or stop making this thread unreadable for those who sincerely wish to participate.
ty.