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[SaltySpitoon]

Are you saying account banning is pointless, and knowing an account could be banned is not a deterrent? But I thought this forum banned accounts?
Am I mistaken?

Second, if you kill someone, there is a body, forensic evidence, etc. If people didn't publicly post about account selling, there would be absolutely no way of knowing that it was happening. What you propose is that moderators scattershot ban people in a completely unfair way, again to solve such a miniscule problem, or what you percieve as a problem.

You do understand that there are different levels of proof required for different transgressions, right? You must, because otherwise you couldn't possibly ban ban-evading accounts, where's the proof? Where's the due process? And yet, I'm sure it happens. How?
Many transgressions are punished on "more likely than not" basis, such as a 5-yr-old being made to stand in a corner for eating his cookies during class - no trial, no jury.

But all this is strictly irrelevant, because you're simultaneously arguing that there's nothing wrong with accounts being bought and sold, or, to use the wording from my previous post, dealing in bitcointalk accounts is not a thing we do not want to happen.

Please make your position on this clear, since I'm not here to waste anyone's time.
If you think that buying & selling forum accounts is a good thing, and are happy that accounts are being traded, what's the point of discussing enforcement possibilities of rules against it?

You are correct, the entire conversation is irrelevant. Account selling isn't against the rules, and it was, there would be no way to enforce it, so the only difference would be our liability. "Well your rules right here say account selling is banned, but someone bought an account and scammed me, why didn't you protect me moderators   " Why give people false expectations? Its the same reason that scams aren't moderated.

Accounts are banned, but that is generally to disuade spamming, or people who have become completely disruptive. You are incorrect when you say that transgressions are punished on a more likely than not basis, anything that is a bannable offense requires 100% proof in plain text. Bans aren't done on a whim. The rules were designed in such a way that moderators couldn't abuse anything more than deleting posts that shouldn't have been (which Theymos monitors and corrects if someone makes a mistake) I've seen one accidental ban in the past 3 years, and that was my bad which was fixed in a few minutes.

As I mentioned before, I dont really have an opinion one way or another about whether accounts should or shouldn't be traded at an ethical level. I do know for a matter of fact that banning people for selling or buying accounts would lead to more trouble than it has caused. Speaking of the trouble account selling/buying has caused, have we been able to point to a single confirmed instance? It is a bad idea to ban account selling whether I agree with it or not.

[TerminatorXL]

[...]
Accounts are banned, but that is generally to disuade spamming, or people who have become completely disruptive.

Ahh, I see - for the common good, that sort of thing? Isn't that how dissidents are treated in totalitarian regimes? Political protests -> disrupting the peace?
And the benevolent cadre makes the "correct" decision from loosely defined sorta-laws?
Can't argue with that logic

You are incorrect when you say that transgressions are punished on a more likely than not basis, anything that is a bannable offense requires 100% proof in plain text. Bans aren't done on a whim. The rules were designed in such a way that moderators couldn't abuse anything more than deleting posts that shouldn't have been (which Theymos monitors and corrects if someone makes a mistake) I've seen one accidental ban in the past 3 years, and that was my bad which was fixed in a few minutes.

Know from reliable source to be false.

As I mentioned before, I dont really have an opinion one way or another about whether accounts should or shouldn't be traded at an ethical level. I do know for a matter of fact that banning people for selling or buying accounts would lead to more trouble than it has caused. Speaking of the trouble account selling/buying has caused, have we been able to point to a single confirmed instance? It is a bad idea to ban account selling whether I agree with it or not.

I have given you reasons why bought and sold accounts are a bad thing. Not going to repeat myself for the Nth time, but you better follow your buddy's list and neg rep me - he got the cue from you If I had any doubts about the vindictiveness of that douche, they're gone.

http://s29.postimg.org/4192qia5z/Capture.png

[SaltySpitoon]

[...]
Accounts are banned, but that is generally to disuade spamming, or people who have become completely disruptive.

Ahh, I see - for the common good, that sort of thing? Isn't that how dissidents are treated in totalitarian regimes? Political protests -> disrupting the peace?
And the benevolent cadre makes the "correct" decision from loosely defined sorta-laws?
Can't argue with that logic

You are incorrect when you say that transgressions are punished on a more likely than not basis, anything that is a bannable offense requires 100% proof in plain text. Bans aren't done on a whim. The rules were designed in such a way that moderators couldn't abuse anything more than deleting posts that shouldn't have been (which Theymos monitors and corrects if someone makes a mistake) I've seen one accidental ban in the past 3 years, and that was my bad which was fixed in a few minutes.

Know from reliable source to be false.

As I mentioned before, I dont really have an opinion one way or another about whether accounts should or shouldn't be traded at an ethical level. I do know for a matter of fact that banning people for selling or buying accounts would lead to more trouble than it has caused. Speaking of the trouble account selling/buying has caused, have we been able to point to a single confirmed instance? It is a bad idea to ban account selling whether I agree with it or not.

I have given you reasons why bought and sold accounts are a bad thing. Not going to repeat myself for the Nth time, but you better follow your buddy's list and neg rep me - he got the cue from you If I had any doubts about the vindictiveness of that douche, they're gone.

Fine, we are a totalitarian regime. Go elsewhere if you would like to avoid it.

Your reliable source likely knows nothing of the banning process here, again that doesn't matter, I don't care.

You haven't made a single point since your first page of the last thread you started. You have said account selling is bad because rape and murder and buzzwords, also you are embarrased or something. You have yet to point out any specific downside to buying/selling accounts. We have addressed scamming and spamming, but after I answered that, you quickly switched to nonsequitor arguments and empty analogies that have nothing to do with anything. If you want to actually add anything else, you are welcome to do so. Don't make an analogy, you can use single words if you wish to address the issues.

A) Spamming
B) Scamming
C) ...

I honestly don't have a problem ignoring people who just want to scream and hear themselves talk, but on the very slight chance you actually care at all about the topic at hand, I joined the conversation to provide additional info for you to think about. If you don't care, just let me know and I'll stop replying.

[TerminatorXL]

How about fuck yourself.
This: http://s29.postimg.org/4192qia5z/Capture.png is case in point proof of how this shitty forum works.
You claimed I'm Supa's alt, your skeezoid boyfriend tripped over himself and neg repped me. On your word.
Let's see some proof, fucker.
Post it.
ty.


Waiting...

[SaltySpitoon]

Right, so once again you have proved you don't care about the topic. So this will be my last post. I explained it pretty clearly in the last thread, it was something you had said. Quickseller's actions are their own.

[TerminatorXL]

Right, so once again you have proved you don't care about the topic. So this will be my last post. I explained it pretty clearly in the last thread, it was something you had said. Quickseller's actions are their own.

No, fuck YOU.
You said that you require rigorous proof to take punitive actions.
Now, thanks to you, I'm labeled as a scammer - pretty fucking punitive.
I asked to see the evidence against me, you retort with "it was something you said."
Tell me that's not how totalitarian states operate, and I'll call you a lying piece of shit. Again

Enjoy stewing in your own fail.

[SaltySpitoon]

Right, so once again you have proved you don't care about the topic. So this will be my last post. I explained it pretty clearly in the last thread, it was something you had said. Quickseller's actions are their own.

No, fuck YOU.
You said that you require rigorous proof to take punitive actions.
Now, thanks to you, I'm labeled as a scammer - pretty fucking punitive.
I asked to see the evidence against me, you retort with "it was something you said."
Tell me that's not how totalitarian states operate, and I'll call you a lying piece of shit. Again

Enjoy stewing in your own fail.

Eh, ok this will be my last reply as you are entitled to some explanation. If I told someone that I think Bitcoins are going to increase in value and they lose money because they bought Bitcoins on my opinion and it goes down, is it my fault? I didn't tell Quickseller to negative rep you, I would have done it myself if I was certain. I still think you are Supa, and if you are, I dont want to tell you how to fix your mistakes next alt you make. I also said that I dont have any better verification methods than you have, so I no way made a statement that could be taken as fact.

I just said that you said something that caught my attention that made me think that you were Supa, nothing more.

-snip-
You know Supa, you could just use one of your 30 other Alt accounts, if you haven't been banned on them yet, why would you think you would be banned now?

I took your next reply as confirmation to what I had said

Lol, is this what you really think? That's what you've been doing here? Defending your skeezy boyfriend? Well, color me impressed!
Allrighty, gg.

Hehe, good one. I did do a trade with quickseller once, was a pretty smooth transaction. We even used PGP so I was sure that he didn't sell his account. Alas, I'm too nervous to ask him to go steady though. Oh well.

I'm actually more impressed with myself that you are Supa. I was pretty sure based on something you had said, but I figured if I was wrong, I could still claim it was my point that it is hard to keep people from trading alt accounts as I can't establish ownership of an account any better than yourself. Moderators don't have access to anything IP related, and we can't check anything about user accounts out of the ordinary.

Full context: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1037815.msg11197886#msg11197886

[TerminatorXL]

[...]

-snip-
You know Supa, you could just use one of your 30 other Alt accounts, if you haven't been banned on them yet, why would you think you would be banned now?

I took your next reply as confirmation to what I had said

Lol, is this what you really think? That's what you've been doing here? Defending your skeezy boyfriend? Well, color me impressed!
Allrighty, gg.

[...]

You... took that as a confirmation?!
You're just batshit crazy, my friend

http://makeameme.org/media/created/actually-im-not-f0x8kl.jpg

[Quickseller]

I don't think accusing him of being the alt of some loan scammer based on some kind of weird hunch is proper mod behaviour imo. All it did was derail the discussion.

The thread was long derailed by the time he made that statement (and received confirmation of such). The conversation was literally derailed threads ago lol.

Are default trusted accounts also for sale? Serious question.

Sounds like a good way to further derail the conversation. I know of a few that were in the past, however I somewhat doubt they still are based on their activity. There are none that I am aware of in the marketplace as of now.

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

I don't think accusing him of being the alt of some loan scammer based on some kind of weird hunch is proper mod behaviour imo. All it did was derail the discussion.

The thread was long derailed by the time he made that statement (and received confirmation of such). The conversation was literally derailed threads ago lol.

Are default trusted accounts also for sale? Serious question.

Sounds like a good way to further derail the conversation. I know of a few that were in the past, however I somewhat doubt they still are based on their activity. There are none that I am aware of in the marketplace as of now.

Received confirmation of such? What does that mean exactly?

[Quickseller]

I don't think accusing him of being the alt of some loan scammer based on some kind of weird hunch is proper mod behaviour imo. All it did was derail the discussion.

The thread was long derailed by the time he made that statement (and received confirmation of such). The conversation was literally derailed threads ago lol.

Are default trusted accounts also for sale? Serious question.

Sounds like a good way to further derail the conversation. I know of a few that were in the past, however I somewhat doubt they still are based on their activity. There are none that I am aware of in the marketplace as of now.

Received confirmation of such? What does that mean exactly?

See Salty's last post on this thread.

Lol, is this what you really think? That's what you've been doing here? Defending your skeezy boyfriend? Well, color me impressed! Undecided
Allrighty, gg.

He essentially admitted to being supa

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

I don't think accusing him of being the alt of some loan scammer based on some kind of weird hunch is proper mod behaviour imo. All it did was derail the discussion.

The thread was long derailed by the time he made that statement (and received confirmation of such). The conversation was literally derailed threads ago lol.

Are default trusted accounts also for sale? Serious question.

Sounds like a good way to further derail the conversation. I know of a few that were in the past, however I somewhat doubt they still are based on their activity. There are none that I am aware of in the marketplace as of now.

Received confirmation of such? What does that mean exactly?

See Salty's last post on this thread.

Lol, is this what you really think? That's what you've been doing here? Defending your skeezy boyfriend? Well, color me impressed! Undecided
Allrighty, gg.

He essentially admitted to being supa

Sorry to butt in here, but: you left him negative trust based on someone else's hunch? Based on that??

[TerminatorXL]

@Quickseller:
I long to believe in a wise, benevolent God.
That's why I'm going to assume that you & Mr. Spittoon are one and the same boil on the perfect, peach-like butt of Creation.
Just one like you is enough to test my faith in Him, but two?
Clear, purposeful maleficence.

@BlindMayorBitcorn: How could a line starting with "lol, is that what you think?" be misconstrued as a confirmation?
Now imagine a whole belfry full of his kind. Unsupervised, sharp implements in spastically twitching hands, and... running a forum!

[hilariousandco]

There are two possible reasons why the things I say appear to be a rehash of things which have been said before:
1. I really am treading over covered ground
2. You opinion re. my writing is as valid as my dog's re. quantum physics.

It's the bolded one, but well done, you're starting to get it now. Only took 4 pages.

You are clearly trying to provoke me. Fine.

You get what you give.

Now go and be angry elsewhere. I know the market sucks and we're all a bit edgy, but take it somwhere else.
ty.

I'm not angry, but as a troll this is what you desire the most for the people you attempt to troll so you need to keep reiterating it to feel as if you've completed your objective or are winning points but it doesn't work with me. The current 'market' or value of bitcoin today is irrelevant to me and irrelevant to this discussion so please stop pulling things out of your arse and maybe actually offer something of actual worth to this discussion except repeating 'u angry lololol i troll u' over and over like it means anything.

In addition to the enforcement issue: From time to time people have asked me whether they could sell their accounts or use them as collateral because they have an emergency need for money or have come on hard times. I'm not going to tell them they can't do this. It's your account and you can do what you want with it. I find it pretty distasteful (it's like selling your identity), but the act of selling your account does not itself hurt anyone else, and in fact scams via account sales are very rare.

Selling accounts hurts trust, thus hurts everyone.
What's the point of having a trust system, when accounts with positive trust are bought & sold, regularly, right here on the forum?

What's the point in any trust system on any site? They're a guide not a definitive you can trust this account badge and every single one on any site can be gamed or abused. eBay or Paypal don't allow accounts to be sold, but guess what you can buy them as easily as bitcointalk accounts. And let's suppose theymos announces right this second that account sales are now prohibited... Changes absolutely nothing regarding 'hurting' trust. Possibly does more damage because people, especially newbs, assume an account could never have possibly been sold or stolen but you seem to not be willing to accept this.

[erikalui]

What makes you think the account was sold? I see that you had posted in that thread saying you know him from elsewhere, but unless he gave some kind of proof then him claiming it was sold would likely just be him trying to protect his reputation.

The account was likely worth more then 1.3 BTC (the amount scammed) so the scam in question was not economical for the owner of the account. Sure the victim is out $325, however account owners would have incentives to not scam with such accounts.

Also banning the sale of accounts would likely cause the prices of accounts to decline (there would be an additional risk the account get banned if it is discovered to be sold) so the above incentive not to scam would be removed (or lessened)

I know the user from another forum and I spoke to him a week after posting on that thread. He then told me he sold the account and told me about his new account as well and on checking his new account, he had an account sales account.


That user is quite reputed and hence I know that the account who bought his account was a scammer. He does not care about the reputation of the sold account as he already sold it.

If account sales is banned, it shouldn't affect those accounts which are already sold/bought but only the future sales would stop. Account prices wouldn't matter.

_______________________________________________________________________________

@OP: This isn't about trust and it's about account sales. I thought that this thread is about account sales 

_______________________________________________________________________________ _

I am listing my points which can be the negatives of selling/buying accounts:

1. The original owner has been spamming earlier to increase his activity and has not been a part of the signature campaign.

The account is sold and now the account (most probably) gets banned as the new owner made few short posts (not really insubstantial) but his post history is full of spam. Account is useless now.

2. The account was banned earlier (once or twice) and the original owner doesn't mention the same. Then the account probably gets banned again. EG: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=994097.0;topicseen

3. The account was earlier loan defaulted and used as a collateral. High chances of it getting a negative trust and hence it cannot be used for earning via a signature campaign.

4. Accounts get hacked and sold and signed messages aren't provided.

5. Accounts with green trust are sold and they can be easily used for scamming newbies.

6. Account sold and the original owner provides fake evidence of his sold account to be charged for scamming and hence makes it get negative trust.


There can be many possibilities and negatives associated with buying and selling accounts and the above cases have been proved true as well. Sixth one may sound illogical but it's definitely a possibility.

[Muhammed Zakir]

I know the user from another forum and I spoke to him a week after posting on that thread. He then told me he sold the account and told me about his new account as well and on checking his new account, he had an account sales account.

That user is quite reputed and hence I know that the account who bought his account was a scammer. He does not care about the reputation of the sold account as he already sold it.

If account sales is banned, it shouldn't affect those accounts which are already sold/bought but only the future sales would stop. Account prices wouldn't matter.

Honestly, a trustworthy member won't sell the account he make. I don't think he is trustworthy.

_______________________________________________________________________________

@OP: This isn't about trust and it's about account sales. I thought that this thread is about account sales 

He derails thread and tell others did it.

_______________________________________________________________________________ _

I am listing my points which can be the negatives of selling/buying accounts:

1. The original owner has been spamming earlier to increase his activity and has not been a part of the signature campaign.

The account is sold and now the account (most probably) gets banned as the new owner made few short posts (not really insubstantial) but his post history is full of spam. Account is useless now.

2. The account was banned earlier (once or twice) and the original owner doesn't mention the same. Then the account probably gets banned again. EG: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=994097.0;topicseen

3. The account was earlier loan defaulted and used as a collateral. High chances of it getting a negative trust and hence it cannot be used for earning via a signature campaign.

4. Accounts get hacked and sold and signed messages aren't provided.

5. Accounts with green trust are sold and they can be easily used for scamming newbies.

6. Account sold and the original owner provides fake evidence of his sold account to be charged for scamming and hence makes it get negative trust.

There can be many possibilities and negatives associated with buying and selling accounts and the above cases have been proved true as well. Sixth one may sound illogical but it's definitely a possibility.

1 & 2: Buyer should take care of this. It is known fact. This the risk buyer should be willing to take.
3: If the account is used as collateral and if the lender is going to sell it, negative trust feedback will be removed if there is enough proof.
4: Careless mistake of buyer.
5: Can be.
6: Can be resolved if buyer asks signed message.

These are the risks buyer take except 5. Sorry but only 5 can be taken as negative.

[erikalui]

Honestly, a trustworthy member won't sell the account he make. I don't think he is trustworthy.

I know this user krishatnet is from India and I checked the date of the thread when he sold his account and after that this scamming thread was created and it was about a Vanilla card. It isn't possible for a user to suddenly start scamming after he listed an account sales thread.


He did a mistake of selling a trusted account and hence I find it weird that other members too sell their green trust accounts for money as it gets a higher value. For BTC, they don't mind selling their trust. The buyer doesn't deserve the positive nor the negative trust and when buying/selling trust isn't allowed in the forum, I don't know why selling trusted accounts is allowed.


As theymos said, account selling is like selling your identity. The Government as well doesn't allow a citizen to own more than one national ID proof (eg: Pan card) else people would have started selling that ID proof as well for money. It would be one user with many ID proofs and many citizens trading and working with that same person's ID proof. Similar case is with selling an account where the trust as well is being sold.

He derails thread and tell others did it.

I just checked the above posts and am shocked to see pictures and boyfriends being discussed. A serious matter has become a joke. 

[TerminatorXL]

[...]

In addition to the enforcement issue: From time to time people have asked me whether they could sell their accounts or use them as collateral because they have an emergency need for money or have come on hard times. I'm not going to tell them they can't do this. It's your account and you can do what you want with it. I find it pretty distasteful (it's like selling your identity), but the act of selling your account does not itself hurt anyone else, and in fact scams via account sales are very rare.

Selling accounts hurts trust, thus hurts everyone.
What's the point of having a trust system, when accounts with positive trust are bought & sold, regularly, right here on the forum?

What's the point in any trust system on any site? They're a guide not a definitive you can trust this account badge and every single one on any site can be gamed or abused. eBay or Paypal don't allow accounts to be sold, but guess what you can buy them as easily as bitcointalk accounts.

If eBay allowed the sale of eBay accounts,
If eBay staff sold accounts on eBay
If most of the items sold on eBay were eBay accounts, like so:
http://s10.postimg.org/relg2xyhl/Capture.png

...well, then I'd agree with you, eBay trust system would be absolutely pointless.
Almost as pointless as you've made the one on bitcointalk.

And let's suppose theymos announces right this second that account sales are now prohibited... Changes absolutely nothing regarding 'hurting' trust. Possibly does more damage because people, especially newbs, assume an account could never have possibly been sold or stolen but you seem to not be willing to accept this.

I admit, you guys have managed to screw the pooch pretty royally when it comes to this forum. The damage you caused is pretty grave, nearly irreversible. Nearly.
This in no way implies that you should continue fucking things up.

STOP, so that we could rebuild.

Yes, the trust system is now completely meaningless, a standing joke that belongs in the trash heap.  Trash it.
You've fucked it beyond redemption in every way, not least by condoning and encouraging buying & selling of accounts, which is, you guessed it, buying and selling trust.

Buying and selling trust is not simply unethical, it's unworkable. Trust can not be bought and sold & remain meaningful.
You can't sell trust for the same reason you can't sell truth.
This is obvious to a child, yet you refuse to see it. Because you can't do without that trickle of pocket change you earn by ignoring it.

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

Don't forget the thriving micro-loans section. Loans for accounts, accounts as collateral. Quickseller is a natural.

[peligro]

Ok we ban account selling, it can't be enforced, and then it becomes more dangerous because people think it can't happen.

It can be enforced. Anytime someone proves that the account belonged to him earlier restore it. There will be those sellers who will try this, and after a few cases all the buyers will be wary. Don't give any protection to buyers, if you find an escrow doing this ban him too.

Not only are you helping hidden selling of accounts, you're actively helping it by making it open and allowing escrow for it.

In addition to the enforcement issue: From time to time people have asked me whether they could sell their accounts or use them as collateral because they have an emergency need for money or have come on hard times.

In that case they can do so openly. There is no need to make it hidden.