Scientologists for Ron Paul

[bvahaha]

Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies http://www.maps.org/

[1715045454]

1715045454

[1715045454]

1715045454

[1715045454]

1715045454

[evolve]

how many ignores does that take?

I'm not sure..they didn't do that back when I was a regular here (I just started coming here again after a few month break from the forums), so I think its a new feature

[Rarity]

Looking more into this subject, I found what appears to be a Libertarian perspective that basically comes to the same conclusion I do.  There are some reasons the two groups could end up crossing over a bit but they are ultimately incompatible beliefs because Libertarians are unwilling to look out for their fellow man.

http://libertarianviewpoint.com/blog/?p=2952

Scientology is in favor of order. It is further in favor of true third dynamics – groups which internally are co-reliant on each other and wherein the members support each others survival.

Libertarianism is individualistic and very “me first” or “only one.” It is also somewhat anarchic. Scientology, being in favor of order, is not in favor of anarchy or everyone for themselves. That said, I have known at least one Scientologist who ran for public office – as a Libertarian.

Where a sane state removes self-determinism, it is in those areas where allowing free rein is harmful. The concept behind not letting people smoke in restaurants is that second-hand smoke kills. Killing is, and should be, unlawful.

Libertarianism has no problem with the hyper-capitalist behaviors that brought the current crisis. Core to libertarian market beliefs is “caveat emptor” – let the buyer beware. A fully libertarian view would be that the economy should have been allowed to crater and people who can’t afford their notes should be put from their homes. Let not only the bad actors, but EVERYONE suffer the consequences of fraud, because “that’s life.” Then try and jail everyone you could find guilty of a crime in the mix, and government has done all it had a duty to do. This is not true third dynamic behavior. It is individualism at the expense of the greater good.

So as I understand Scientology and Libertarianism I do not see them as entirely compatible.

I know a number of Scientologists who disagree with me on this score. But in this instance, I think I have a more thorough understanding of the overarching principles at work than they do.

Of course, that the Church had such success with their booth suggests that maybe Libertarians can listen to reason and back away from those views if you give them a convincing enough argument.  That is where the free thinking comes into play.  Be it political or spiritual matters, it's best not to put all your trust in mainstream corporate media and instead to make your own decisions. That is the way you can find the institutions that are truly worthy of your trust. 

[420]

Looking more into this subject, I found what appears to be a Libertarian perspective that basically comes to the same conclusion I do.  There are some reasons the two groups could end up crossing over a bit but they are ultimately incompatible beliefs because Libertarians are unwilling to look out for their fellow man.

http://libertarianviewpoint.com/blog/?p=2952

Scientology is in favor of order. It is further in favor of true third dynamics – groups which internally are co-reliant on each other and wherein the members support each others survival.

Libertarianism is individualistic and very “me first” or “only one.” It is also somewhat anarchic. Scientology, being in favor of order, is not in favor of anarchy or everyone for themselves. That said, I have known at least one Scientologist who ran for public office – as a Libertarian.

Where a sane state removes self-determinism, it is in those areas where allowing free rein is harmful. The concept behind not letting people smoke in restaurants is that second-hand smoke kills. Killing is, and should be, unlawful.

Libertarianism has no problem with the hyper-capitalist behaviors that brought the current crisis. Core to libertarian market beliefs is “caveat emptor” – let the buyer beware. A fully libertarian view would be that the economy should have been allowed to crater and people who can’t afford their notes should be put from their homes. Let not only the bad actors, but EVERYONE suffer the consequences of fraud, because “that’s life.” Then try and jail everyone you could find guilty of a crime in the mix, and government has done all it had a duty to do. This is not true third dynamic behavior. It is individualism at the expense of the greater good.

So as I understand Scientology and Libertarianism I do not see them as entirely compatible.

I know a number of Scientologists who disagree with me on this score. But in this instance, I think I have a more thorough understanding of the overarching principles at work than they do.

Of course, that the Church had such success with their booth suggests that maybe Libertarians can listen to reason and back away from those views if you give them a convincing enough argument.  That is where the free thinking comes into play.  Be it political or spiritual matters, it's best not to put all your trust in mainstream corporate media and instead to make your own decisions. That is the way you can find the institutions that are truly worthy of your trust.  

Me = Libertarian

Unwilling to look out for fellow man?

I asked completed strangers if they needed help because they were sitting on a building stoop and looked possibly homeless or hippie-ish

I gave $20 to a complete stranger after i asked him what was wrong with his car when his hood was up

I've taken hitchhikers, male and female, for free

I've offered and given ridesharing

[myrkul]

Libertarians resent being forced to look out for their fellow man. Not the looking out itself, the force. When not forced, we tend to be very nice.

[Rarity]

Looking more into this subject, I found what appears to be a Libertarian perspective that basically comes to the same conclusion I do.  There are some reasons the two groups could end up crossing over a bit but they are ultimately incompatible beliefs because Libertarians are unwilling to look out for their fellow man.

http://libertarianviewpoint.com/blog/?p=2952

Scientology is in favor of order. It is further in favor of true third dynamics – groups which internally are co-reliant on each other and wherein the members support each others survival.

Libertarianism is individualistic and very “me first” or “only one.” It is also somewhat anarchic. Scientology, being in favor of order, is not in favor of anarchy or everyone for themselves. That said, I have known at least one Scientologist who ran for public office – as a Libertarian.

Where a sane state removes self-determinism, it is in those areas where allowing free rein is harmful. The concept behind not letting people smoke in restaurants is that second-hand smoke kills. Killing is, and should be, unlawful.

Libertarianism has no problem with the hyper-capitalist behaviors that brought the current crisis. Core to libertarian market beliefs is “caveat emptor” – let the buyer beware. A fully libertarian view would be that the economy should have been allowed to crater and people who can’t afford their notes should be put from their homes. Let not only the bad actors, but EVERYONE suffer the consequences of fraud, because “that’s life.” Then try and jail everyone you could find guilty of a crime in the mix, and government has done all it had a duty to do. This is not true third dynamic behavior. It is individualism at the expense of the greater good.

So as I understand Scientology and Libertarianism I do not see them as entirely compatible.

I know a number of Scientologists who disagree with me on this score. But in this instance, I think I have a more thorough understanding of the overarching principles at work than they do.

Of course, that the Church had such success with their booth suggests that maybe Libertarians can listen to reason and back away from those views if you give them a convincing enough argument.  That is where the free thinking comes into play.  Be it political or spiritual matters, it's best not to put all your trust in mainstream corporate media and instead to make your own decisions. That is the way you can find the institutions that are truly worthy of your trust.  

Me = Libertarian

Unwilling to look out for fellow man?

I asked completed strangers if they needed help because they were sitting on a building stoop and looked possibly homeless or hippie-ish

I gave $20 to a complete stranger after i asked him what was wrong with his car when his hood was up

I've taken hitchhikers, male and female, for free

I've offered and given ridesharing

That's nice and all but you are supporting a political philosophy that ensures homeless people will remain systemically in need of help instead of provided for and given treatment to get into an institution to help them make something of themselves.  The homeless don't need you to give them $5, they need homes.  Anyway, this is off topic.  This thread is about the interaction between the two groups and there is little doubt Scientologists care more about building an ordered community where folks help each other.   The relative difference that separates the two groups is the only relevant point. If you disagree with that, take it up with the Libertarian author I just linked, not me.  All I know is a lot of Randians I've met break out the word "parasites" a whole lot and that does not exactly signal a lot of care and respect.

[myrkul]

That's nice and all but you are supporting a political philosophy that ensures homeless people will remain systemically in need of help instead of provided for and given treatment to get into an institution to help them make something of themselves.

Says the communist.

[Severian]

an unconventional spiritual group

There's nothing spiritual about $cientology.

Yes, I'm intolerant, so save your breath. I'm intolerant of stupid people that will believe damn near anything.

[420]

I can't speak on Scientology as I am not researched.

But Libertarians believe men being able to open businesses and organizations (hint hint, charitable organizations?) freely, and keep the fruit of their labor
are much better off, more motivated to work for themself and in the end feel more compassion for each other man as each other man did not just vote to steal items away to be distributed unefficiently by beaurocrats, each $1 in salary to government workers or beaurocrats is a dollar that should have gone to someone in need at the least.

[Rarity]

I can't speak on Scientology as I am not researched.

But Libertarians believe men being able to open businesses and organizations (hint hint, charitable organizations?) freely, and keep the fruit of their labor
are much better off, more motivated to work for themself and in the end feel more compassion for each other man as each other man did not just vote to steal items away to be distributed unefficiently by beaurocrats, each $1 in salary to government workers or beaurocrats is a dollar that should have gone to someone in need at the least.

Charitable organizations have failed to provide for everyone even in the richest nation on Earth.  Obviously, they aren't the solution to the systemic problem.  But hey, you should try and explain how efficient the situation is to the next homeless vet you see freezing on a park bench in the Chicago or New York winter.  Explain why it is so important that he freezes so Mitt Romney doesn't have to have the fruits of his "labor" taxed even though he was born wealthier than 99% of the billions of people on planet Earth.

Government is the only solution to systemic homelessness.  If you turn away from the only actual solution, don't expect me to pat you on the back for individual acts of kindness while you condemn  all the rest to their fate.

There's nothing spiritual about $cientology.

Yes, I'm intolerant, so save your breath. I'm intolerant of stupid people that will believe damn near anything.

The beliefs of Scientology are no more or less strange than any other religion.  If you carry your bigotry over to all religions and the vast majority of the population of Earth that is fine, but the sign of a shallow, immature, and unengaged philosophy.  

[420]

Well as our standard of living shot up quick, shortly thereafter came government regulations and more departments, more spending.

You have no systematic solution to the problem. It's easy to denounce libertarianism, much harder to develop an argument that people believe to support it.

[myrkul]

Government is the only solution to cause of systemic homelessness.

Fixed.

[Bitcoin Oz]

I can't speak on Scientology as I am not researched.

But Libertarians believe men being able to open businesses and organizations (hint hint, charitable organizations?) freely, and keep the fruit of their labor
are much better off, more motivated to work for themself and in the end feel more compassion for each other man as each other man did not just vote to steal items away to be distributed unefficiently by beaurocrats, each $1 in salary to government workers or beaurocrats is a dollar that should have gone to someone in need at the least.

Charitable organizations have failed to provide for everyone even in the richest nation on Earth.  Obviously, they aren't the solution to the systemic problem.  But hey, you should try and explain how efficient the situation is to the next homeless vet you see freezing on a park bench in the Chicago or New York winter.  Explain why it is so important that he freezes so Mitt Romney doesn't have to have the fruits of his "labor" taxed even though he was born wealthier than 99% of the billions of people on planet Earth.

Government is the only solution to systemic homelessness.  If you turn away from the only actual solution, don't expect me to pat you on the back for individual acts of kindness while you condemn  all the rest to their fate.

There's nothing spiritual about $cientology.

Yes, I'm intolerant, so save your breath. I'm intolerant of stupid people that will believe damn near anything.

The beliefs of Scientology are no more or less strange than any other religion.  If you carry your bigotry over to all religions and the vast majority of the population of Earth that is fine, but the sign of a shallow and unengaged philosophy. 

Im sure the "church" doesnt hoard all of the money "voluntarily" donated to it either.

[bb113]

Government is the only solution to cause of systemic homelessness.

Fixed.

I think it is important to acknowledge that even if this is the case, immediate transition into a ancap or libertarian structured society may not be a wise decision when starting from as crappy a situation as has been created by our forefathers. The current situation is similar to the 1930s, when Hoover thought that people would help each other out and things like that but didn't understand the extent to which people had been made dependent on easy credit and centralized services to solve their problems.

[LoupGaroux]

The beliefs of Scientology are no more or less strange than any other religion.  If you carry your bigotry over to all religions and the vast majority of the population of Earth that is fine, but the sign of a shallow, immature, and unengaged philosophy.  

Fact #1: Scientology is NOT a religion. It is a cult devoted to brainwashing the weak, sucking them dry of every relationship, every crumb of value and every shred of dignity and to force them to become addicted to the cult. That is NOT a religion, that is criminal. It is a massive fraud put together by a third rate science fiction writer with delusions of god-hood, who figured since he couldn't hack the real world, he would just move into his own fantasy one, and sucker others into funding it. Thetans and going clear is the typical bullshit crafted to justify their line of folly. It's a cult, as evil and as sociopathic as The People Temple.

Fact #2: It is not bigotry to disagree with the dogma of a cult. It is simply a difference of opinion. I think that all Scientologists are wicked small people with an agenda that involves ritualistic rape, extortion, kidnapping, pedophilia, and tax fraud. No Scientologist can prove that isn't true.

[Rarity]

Well as our standard of living shot up quick, shortly thereafter came government regulations and more departments, more spending.

You have no systematic solution to the problem. It's easy to denounce libertarianism, much harder to develop an argument that people believe to support it.

Of course there's a solution.  You give homeless people shelter and food and medical treatment and job training.  It's not at all a difficult problem to solve, all you need is the will.  It's just doing what the churches and charities do but on a large enough scale to cover everyone who needs the help without tossing them back out on the street due to a lack of resources as commonly occurs.

Two major causes of homelessness are drug abuse and alcoholism. I didn't want to get back to that topic but you can't really discuss homelessness without them.  Those two problems cross economic boundaries and can bring down anyone.  Standard of living or regulations aren't the cause, other then the lack of effective regulations to ban the use of drugs and alcohol.

Nobody actually believes Libertarian arguments because we all know what they would lead to in practice, the near anarchy of violent dystopian states like Somalia.  Or the constantly scammed and insecure world of our current, pre government regulation, Bitcoin economy.  When you grow up and get out of your high school pot smoking libertarian phase (if you make it out without the drug abuse killing you) you are going to realize that, like most high school Libertarians do.  

[Rarity]

Fact #1: Scientology is NOT a religion. It is a cult devoted to brainwashing the weak, sucking them dry of every relationship, every crumb of value and every shred of dignity and to force them to become addicted to the cult. That is NOT a religion, that is criminal. It is a massive fraud put together by a third rate science fiction writer with delusions of god-hood, who figured since he couldn't hack the real world, he would just move into his own fantasy one, and sucker others into funding it. Thetans and going clear is the typical bullshit crafted to justify their line of folly. It's a cult, as evil and as sociopathic as The People Temple.

Fact #2: It is not bigotry to disagree with the dogma of a cult. It is simply a difference of opinion. I think that all Scientologists are wicked small people with an agenda that involves ritualistic rape, extortion, kidnapping, pedophilia, and tax fraud. No Scientologist can prove that isn't true.

Sounds like you have been brainwashed by a bunch of MSM media lies and distortions from people who have no understanding of the Church.  It's ridiculous how sheeplike you are in following what they tell you, that's the biggest cult in America right there.  

No organization is perfect, but if you are talking about a Church full of systemic rape and child abuse you are making the argument that Catholics are part of a cult, not Scientologists.

Religions are tax exempt in the US, that isn't fraud and you don't get to determine a group is not a religion just because you disagree with their dogma.  Everyone is free to make their own choices on religion, but when you make false accusations to denigrate a group or act without evidence you have passed over into bigotry.  I disagree with Muslim theology, but you don't hear me posting rants about them full of lies because I'm not a bigot about it.  

I believe I'm going to lock at this point because folks seem to be unable to discuss the actual topic, Libertarianism and Scientology, without devolving into hateful attacks.  If you want to post hate speech that is your right on these forums, but start your own thread for it.