The pirate ponzi fiasco

[bigasic]

Why not give the pass thru's scammer tags? If it weren't for them, the loss wouldn't be nearly as high as it is.. Granted, they didn't control the scam, but I liken it to a bank robbery.. I consider the pass thru's the get-a-way drivers after a bank robbery.. They didn't actually steal the money, but they helped contribute to the theft.......a getaway driver would be just as guilty in a court of law as the ones inside with the guns that were actually stealing the money..

Just a thought..

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[repentance]

Why not give the pass thru's scammer tags? If it weren't for them, the loss wouldn't be nearly as high as it is.. Granted, they didn't control the scam, but I liken it to a bank robbery.. I consider the pass thru's the get-a-way drivers after a bank robbery.. They didn't actually steal the money, but they helped contribute to the theft.......a getaway driver would be just as guilty in a court of law as the ones inside with the guns that were actually stealing the money..

Just a thought..

So should you be able to sue your stockbroker if the stock you told him to buy on your behalf tanks when all of the information you needed to assess the risk of that stock has been freely available to you?

[JoelKatz]

So should you be able to sue your stockbroker if the stock you told him to buy on your behalf tanks when all of the information you needed to assess the risk of that stock has been freely available to you?

You're missing the point. The claim is not that PPT operators breached their agreement with their bondholders. The claim is that PPT operators knowingly paid pirate to make them the recipients of fraudulent transfers. (Those of them on record as saying they knew or suspected Pirate was running a Ponzi scheme.)

The liability is like that of a fence who buys property he suspects is likely stolen and then sells it to someone else who also suspects it's stolen. It's not like thieves say to their fences, "You know this property is stolen, right?" The fence just has to suspect it's likely stolen and not look to closely at the fact that the circumstances strongly suggest it's stolen.

If a "stockbroker" helps a woman find a hitman to kill her husband and brokers the deal, he's as guilty of the murder as the hitman is. Yes, even if he kept his deal with the woman by finding a reliable hitman and paying him.

[JoelKatz]

Anyway giving PPT operators scammers tags is like giving master card a scammers tag when someone buys lotto tickets with them...

Interesting how you compare a situation with no fraud involved to a situation involving massive fraud.

If a PPT operator knew it was a Ponzi scheme, then weren't they paying Pirate to run the Ponzi scheme and transfer some of the proceeds to them?

[JoelKatz]

Anyway giving PPT operators scammers tags is like giving master card a scammers tag when someone buys lotto tickets with them...

Interesting how you compare a situation with no fraud involved to a situation involving massive fraud.

If a PPT operator knew it was a Ponzi scheme, then weren't they paying Pirate to run the Ponzi scheme and transfer some of the proceeds to them?

You and Theymos assume it is a ponzi.

I said, "If a PPT operator knew it was a Ponzi scheme". If you're going to pretend to reply to me, please address the argument I actually made in the post you're purporting to reply to.

I do not, I have asked for evidence and you can give none. And proof? Oh lol!

You are like an evolution denier who, no matter how much evidence he is given, insists that he has none until he gets precisely the specific type of evidence he knows does not exist. The evidence is overwhelming, you just choose to stick your fingers in your ears.

For example, here's the SEC's list of signs of a Ponzi scheme. See what matches Pirate:

    High investment returns with little or no risk. Every investment carries some degree of risk, and investments yielding higher returns typically involve more risk. Be highly suspicious of any “guaranteed” investment opportunity.

    Overly consistent returns. Investments tend to go up and down over time, especially those seeking high returns. Be suspect of an investment that continues to generate regular, positive returns regardless of overall market conditions.

    Unregistered investments. Ponzi schemes typically involve investments that have not been registered with the SEC or with state regulators. Registration is important because it provides investors with access to key information about the company’s management, products, services, and finances.

    Unlicensed sellers. Federal and state securities laws require investment professionals and their firms to be licensed or registered. Most Ponzi schemes involve unlicensed individuals or unregistered firms.

    Secretive and/or complex strategies. Avoiding investments you don’t understand or for which you can’t get complete information is a good rule of thumb.

    Issues with paperwork. Ignore excuses regarding why you can’t review information about an investment in writing, and always read an investment’s prospectus or disclosure statement carefully before you invest. Also, account statement errors may be a sign that funds are not being invested as promised.

    Difficulty receiving payments. Be suspicious if you don’t receive a payment or have difficulty cashing out your investment. Keep in mind that Ponzi scheme promoters sometimes encourage participants to “roll over” promised payments by offering even higher investment returns.

http://www.sec.gov/answers/ponzi.htm#RedFlags

This is a 100% perfect match.

[BIGMERVE]

Don't ASSume!

[theymos]

You are going to make PMs public or give it to the police?

I will give them to the police if the police ask for them. Otherwise, I may post them publicly to help people find Pirate and obtain justice.

Pirates are hostis humani generis. I'm not going to preserve the privacy of someone who stole 500,000 BTC.

[BIGMERVE]

You are going to make PMs public or give it to the police?

I will give them to the police if the police ask for them. Otherwise, I may post them publicly to help people find Pirate and obtain justice.

Pirates are hostis humani generis. I'm not going to preserve the privacy of someone who stole 500,000 BTC.

There could be some other information in those messages that might indite other members. It would be like the wikileaks of bitcoin.

[theymos]

But you will violate the privacy of people who sent messages to him. 

I'm not going to publicly release the PMs until a few months from now, if ever. I'll create a topic about it then and we can have a public debate.

[Frankie]

You are going to make PMs public or give it to the police?

I will give them to the police if the police ask for them. Otherwise, I may post them publicly to help people find Pirate and obtain justice.

Pirates are hostis humani generis. I'm not going to preserve the privacy of someone who stole 500,000 BTC.

But you will violate the privacy of people who sent messages to him. 

Hmm.  I wonder if the shills were a little be more candid about being shills when talking with the ringleader?

theymos' position makes a lot a sense to me. Respond to official requests if there are any law enforcement investigations, and if there are not, and if we are on a desert island, and JoelKatz has put it, release the information in such a way to help the depositors recover (which may be a full public release, or something more selective).

[finkleshnorts]

PPT operators don't deserve scammer tags at all, in my opinion. They provided a service that useful to those who wished to gamble on a black box investment. If people really want to throw their money at a Ponzi scheme, they should by all means be enabled. And I think a Ponzi scheme is a horrible thing.

I don't blame gas station owners for lung cancer because they sell cigarettes. I don't blame the tobacco farmers. If you wanna smoke, you're going to pay for it later. We tried to tell you.

[Bitcoin Oz]

But you will violate the privacy of people who sent messages to him. 

I'm not going to publicly release the PMs until a few months from now, if ever. I'll create a topic about it then and we can have a public debate.

Honestly I would like to know now. I had no idea you would think it is okay to just send out PM's of not only people you think are guilty but also innocent people!

I'm honestly shocked and will no longer trust you to hold secret personal information

He could probably redact names but Im guessing if no payment comes from pirate in a month then a crime investigation will probably be happening. I would be shocked if its not by that point. Of course he cant release it during a criminal investigation either.

[finkleshnorts]

But you will violate the privacy of people who sent messages to him. 

I'm not going to publicly release the PMs until a few months from now, if ever. I'll create a topic about it then and we can have a public debate.

Honestly I would like to know now. I had no idea you would think it is okay to just send out PM's of not only people you think are guilty but also innocent people!

I'm honestly shocked and will no longer trust you to hold secret personal information

Good, you shouldn't trust anybody with secret personal information--because you don't have to. If you're really worried about the things you say on bitcointalk, or anywhere for that matter... there's an algorithm for that.

[theymos]

Honestly I would like to know now.

I haven't decided yet what I will do. I want to see public discussion about it. It might not be necessary to release his PMs, so there's no point in arguing about it now, though.

[theymos]

I noticed that some people communicated with Pirate using PGP-encrypted messages, which is smart.

[JoelKatz]

Fine, I will agree with you, "IF" they knew it was a ponzi.

However you do not even know it is a ponzi at this point. You like Theymos just assumed.

We all know it's a Ponzi. Some of us are honest about it and some are not. I understand that it's impossible to get a person to see something when his livelihood and reputation depends on him not seeing it. Perfect certainty is not required for knowledge.

[imsaguy]

I noticed that some people communicated with Pirate using PGP-encrypted messages, which is smart.

Ah, so you're already reading the pms.  Good to know.

[theymos]

Ah, so you're already reading the pms.  Good to know.  Who else are you snooping through?

I only scanned through them to make sure that the SQL query (to archive them) worked as I intended. The PGP message blocks stood out.

I only read others' PMs without their permission during scam investigations, and I've only read a user's entire inbox a few times.

[imsaguy]

I only read others' PMs without their permission during scam investigations, and I've only read a user's entire inbox a few times.

And if a user is adjudged innocent, are they still notified that you browsed through them?

[theymos]

And if a user is adjudged innocent, are they still notified that you browsed through them?

That's never happened.