[SPLIT]Taxes on Bitcoin transactions

[kjj]

Meh.  I'm a pretty strong libertarian, but I don't think that everything should be privatized.  Certainly we are WAY too far in the other direction right now, so I love listening to hard-libertarians come up with ways to change things around, even when I think that some of those ideas are pretty well unworkable.

Some things are natural monopolies.  I think that most roads fit into this category, as do several other utilities, mostly the things that are physically attached to the land.  Some type of public governance seems to be required for those.

[stevegee58]

True libertardians support privatization of everything, including the air you breathe. Everything else is socialism.

MUST.NOT.MAKE.JOKE.ABOUT.PEOPLE.WITH.BIG.NOSES.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH.

[Elwar]

I think that most roads fit into this category, as do several other utilities, mostly the things that are physically attached to the land. 

Where I live, no utility I use is publicly run. All private. Water, sewer, TV/Internet, electric. My garbage service is also private. I used to live somewhere that had a private fire department that was better than any other fire department in the state. My local fire company used to be private until the county passed a law to take all of the private companies over.

The reason it is so hard for people to imagine roads as private entities is because they have not experienced them themselves.

[Steve]

Who cares about roads?  The immorality of coercive taxation is reason enough get rid of it.  Would you have defended slavery because you thought it would be impossible for farm land to be harvested in its absence?  Society will not collapse in the absence of coercive taxation.  But, if you really must imagine how roads might get built (along with a whole bunch of other stuff), I'd suggest that crowd funding and assurance contracts are the most likely answer.  Until we can get past our collective hangup on coerced taxation, I don't really think we can consider ourselves to be a civilized society.  People a few hundred years from now will look back on this era as barbaric.  They'll think of the federal reserve system (and central banking in general) to have been pure folly (kind of like we view the pegging of the gold/silver ratio).

(and, for the record, I do pay all my taxes...my opinion voiced here should not be mis-construed to suggest that I don't)

[Domrada]

People a few hundred years from know will look back on this era as barbaric.  They'll think of the federal reserve system (and central banking in general) to have been pure folly (kind of like we view the pegging of the gold/silver ratio).

Indeed. Central banks will be deemed the cause of "the second Dark Age" in our descendant's history e-books.

[sunnankar]

Some things are natural monopolies.  I think that most roads fit into this category, as do several other utilities, mostly the things that are physically attached to the land.  Some type of public governance seems to be required for those.

Perhaps you should read Walter Block's The Privatization of Roads and Highways. If those who screwed up were held accountable instead of protected by sovereign immunity then only about 10,000 people would die on the roads and highways instead of the 50,000/year currently. Imagine the outrage if 50,000 died every year on airplanes.

[bitlizard]

Wow, I thought I was a strong libertarian... but this thread is showing me that Im weak... LOL

I would have thought taxing citizens to build roads was a no-brainer, guess I will have to reconsider that, or perhaps reconsider some of my libertarian views as well.

Once a person accepts libertarian ideas and philosophy there is a logical progression towards a more anarchistic or anarcho-capitalist perspective.

Some of us view bitcoin as demonstrative proof that a decentralized, voluntary and stateless currency is possible.

[kjj]

I think that most roads fit into this category, as do several other utilities, mostly the things that are physically attached to the land. 

Where I live, no utility I use is publicly run. All private. Water, sewer, TV/Internet, electric. My garbage service is also private. I used to live somewhere that had a private fire department that was better than any other fire department in the state. My local fire company used to be private until the county passed a law to take all of the private companies over.

The reason it is so hard for people to imagine roads as private entities is because they have not experienced them themselves.

And if you don't like those services, you can pick different ones?

[kangasbros]

Some of us view bitcoin as demonstrative proof that a decentralized, voluntary and stateless currency is possible.

Your political ideology did not invent Bitcoin, bitcoin is based on computer science and cryptography

[sunnankar]

Your political ideology did not invent Bitcoin, bitcoin is based on computer science and cryptography

There is a commonly accepted theorem in cryptography: Anything that can be done with a trusted authority can be done without.

[Elwar]

I think that most roads fit into this category, as do several other utilities, mostly the things that are physically attached to the land. 

Where I live, no utility I use is publicly run. All private. Water, sewer, TV/Internet, electric. My garbage service is also private. I used to live somewhere that had a private fire department that was better than any other fire department in the state. My local fire company used to be private until the county passed a law to take all of the private companies over.

The reason it is so hard for people to imagine roads as private entities is because they have not experienced them themselves.

And if you don't like those services, you can pick different ones?

I can choose another garbage company, and another TV/Internet company. When I lived in Texas I could choose between electric companies. Unfortunately here there is only one. My water and sewage companies are local co-ops. Run by committee chairmen voted by members(anyone who uses their service). I do not see why another water company could not come in and compete. This one has just been around for so long that there is not much demand for another one. I ran for water chair last year but lost by 4 votes. It is a very small company.

[Raize]

Kindly stop driving on our roads... Thanks

Sure, as soon as "the people" buy my ownership stake in them. I'd settle for 95% of what I've paid for them in state income and gas taxes, inflation-adjusted. Before you scoff, this would be several hundred dollars for this year alone. I don't mind paying for roads, but more on a local level. I'd even accept state if they only used eminent domain to LAY the roads and then sold them to private companies to maintain.

I really like the concept, I just don't see how it is possible to have competing "road companies".

Many didn't understand how there can be competing cell phone companies or ISPs, either. It's in their best interests to work together, and when one thinks there is an advantage to not doing so, they suffer lost customers because of it. It's the same reason why Network Neutrality has been violated, but not egregiously. We already packetshape bandwidth at every level from your home to the Internet, but we do so with the customer's best interests in mind already. I've never seen a Net Neutrality law that didn't also end up being bandwidth caps or a benefit for the RIAA and MPAA.

[bitlizard]

Some of us view bitcoin as demonstrative proof that a decentralized, voluntary and stateless currency is possible.

Your political ideology did not invent Bitcoin, bitcoin is based on computer science and cryptography

Your statement suggests that I have a 'political ideology' and that I am claiming it created bitcoin. wtf?

[kjj]

I think that most roads fit into this category, as do several other utilities, mostly the things that are physically attached to the land. 

Where I live, no utility I use is publicly run. All private. Water, sewer, TV/Internet, electric. My garbage service is also private. I used to live somewhere that had a private fire department that was better than any other fire department in the state. My local fire company used to be private until the county passed a law to take all of the private companies over.

The reason it is so hard for people to imagine roads as private entities is because they have not experienced them themselves.

And if you don't like those services, you can pick different ones?

I can choose another garbage company, and another TV/Internet company. When I lived in Texas I could choose between electric companies. Unfortunately here there is only one. My water and sewage companies are local co-ops. Run by committee chairmen voted by members(anyone who uses their service). I do not see why another water company could not come in and compete. This one has just been around for so long that there is not much demand for another one. I ran for water chair last year but lost by 4 votes. It is a very small company.

It would be interesting to see how the two sets of water mains and sewer systems would intertwine, and in which land.  At least with electric and communication, you have the option of one above ground, and one buried.

But what you are describing really sounds like a local government, in fact even if not in name.  I can't think of any obvious difference.

What do you think about radio?

[Elwar]

I think that most roads fit into this category, as do several other utilities, mostly the things that are physically attached to the land. 

Where I live, no utility I use is publicly run. All private. Water, sewer, TV/Internet, electric. My garbage service is also private. I used to live somewhere that had a private fire department that was better than any other fire department in the state. My local fire company used to be private until the county passed a law to take all of the private companies over.

The reason it is so hard for people to imagine roads as private entities is because they have not experienced them themselves.

And if you don't like those services, you can pick different ones?

I can choose another garbage company, and another TV/Internet company. When I lived in Texas I could choose between electric companies. Unfortunately here there is only one. My water and sewage companies are local co-ops. Run by committee chairmen voted by members(anyone who uses their service). I do not see why another water company could not come in and compete. This one has just been around for so long that there is not much demand for another one. I ran for water chair last year but lost by 4 votes. It is a very small company.

What do you think about radio?

Government monopoly on airwaves.

[Rassah]

Elwar, I think your public roads speech was really overcomplicating things. Next time, just say that roads are government subsidizing of a specific type of transportation, which makes it impossible for other transportation types to compete. Government subsidy of highways is why trains and other type of public transportation that people in other countries get for cheap, can't compete, and why our public transportation is so expensive and sucks so much. Ask them if they prefer two hours in traffic that costs them gas, maintenance fees, and nerves, or an hour in a very comfy and fast train that costs them something like $15 round trip (as you can do in most of Europe). If you want to blame something for the destruction of our great rail and trolley system, highway subsidies is it.

Kjj, stop thinking of competition as competing equal alternatives, and start thinking about substitutes. This is an error that a lot of people make when they first think about this.
My teacher asked in our business class, "You run the Coca Cola company, and are worried about competition. What are some of the competing products you have to watch out for?" The students named Pepsi, Royal cola, generic, and every other brand of cola out there, but the teacher kept pressing for more. It wasn't until he suggested, "What about milk? Or orange juice?" that we understood what he was getting at.

One alternative to water piped to your house is your own personal water well system. The alternative to electric wires from the power company is your generators. Right now we are limited in what we can get (gas, solar, wind), in large part because alternatives can't compete well yet, but if the price of electric, water, or gas rises even a bit, competing ideas will take off. After that, there could be even more different services we haven't even imagined yet (your own personal water tank with water delivered by truck? Japan is developing personal, fully contained, nuclear reactors the size of a shipping container that can be buried, and provide power for a small neighborhood for 20+ years)

[matthewh3]

So what happens to roads in ghettos who pays for them?  Or do you just put them all in jail and send the rest back to Mexico.  The US has the highest prison population per-capita of any nation by a long shot.  WTF is going on with your justice/education system?

[hazek]

Meh.  I'm a pretty strong libertarian, but I don't think that everything should be privatized.  Certainly we are WAY too far in the other direction right now, so I love listening to hard-libertarians come up with ways to change things around, even when I think that some of those ideas are pretty well unworkable.

Some things are natural monopolies.  I think that most roads fit into this category, as do several other utilities, mostly the things that are physically attached to the land.  Some type of public governance seems to be required for those.

I'm not against rules, but I am vehemently against ruleRs, unlike you I prefer my autonomy and freedom and do not agree with being governed by anyone without my contractually arranged explicit consent. But to each his own, if you want to be a slave to a small gang of people, be my guest. 

[hazek]

Elwar, I think your public roads speech was really overcomplicating things. Next time, just say that roads are government subsidizing of a specific type of transportation, which makes it impossible for other transportation types to compete. Government subsidy of highways is why trains and other type of public transportation that people in other countries get for cheap, can't compete, and why our public transportation is so expensive and sucks so much. Ask them if they prefer two hours in traffic that costs them gas, maintenance fees, and nerves, or an hour in a very comfy and fast train that costs them something like $15 round trip (as you can do in most of Europe). If you want to blame something for the destruction of our great rail and trolley system, highway subsidies is it.

Kjj, stop thinking of competition as competing equal alternatives, and start thinking about substitutes. This is an error that a lot of people make when they first think about this.
My teacher asked in our business class, "You run the Coca Cola company, and are worried amount competition. What are some of the competing products you have to watch out for?" The students named Pepsi, Royal cola, generic, and every other brand of cola out there, but the teacher kept pressing for more. It wasn't until he suggested, "What about milk? Or orange juice?" that we we understood what he was getting at.

One alternative to water piped to your house is your own personal water well system. The alternative to electric wires from the power company is your generators. Right now we are limited in what we can get (gas, solar, wind), in large part because alternatives can't compete well yet, but if the price of electric, water, or gas rises even a bit, competing ideas will take off. After that, there could be even more different services we haven't even imagined yet (your own personal water tank with water delivered by truck? Japan is developing personal, fully contained, nuclear reactors the size of a shipping container that can be buried, and provide power for a small neighborhood for 20+ years)

Excellent post.

[mobile4ever]

Where I live, no utility I use is publicly run. All private. Water, sewer, TV/Internet, electric. My garbage service is also private. I used to live somewhere that had a private fire department that was better than any other fire department in the state. My local fire company used to be private until the county passed a law to take all of the private companies over.

You reminded me of a Reagan quote:

“The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, “I’m from the government and I’m here to help.”

(Not a Reaganite BTW)