[SPLIT]Taxes on Bitcoin transactions

[nimda]

Some things are natural monopolies.  I think that most roads fit into this category

I think everyone should get a healthy understanding of the history of America's phone system. I recommend the book The Idea Factory. It's mainly about Bell Labs, but it also discusses the monopoly.
Bell was a government-sanctioned monopoly, free from antitrust laws, because the government loved the sound of "one unified system" of telephone operations.

As long as AT&T kept innovating, there wasn't much of a demand for another company. In fact, the transistor, perhaps the most important invention in the past 100 years, was invented at Bell Labs. But the antitrust regulators were always on the prowl, and when competition came in, the phone system improved further. If the "natural monopoly" of a phone system could be privatized, why not roads?

[1715118562]

1715118562

[kjj]

Meh.  I'm a pretty strong libertarian, but I don't think that everything should be privatized.  Certainly we are WAY too far in the other direction right now, so I love listening to hard-libertarians come up with ways to change things around, even when I think that some of those ideas are pretty well unworkable.

Some things are natural monopolies.  I think that most roads fit into this category, as do several other utilities, mostly the things that are physically attached to the land.  Some type of public governance seems to be required for those.

I'm not against rules, but I am vehemently against ruleRs, unlike you I prefer my autonomy and freedom and do not agree with being governed by anyone without my contractually arranged explicit consent. But to each his own, if you want to be a slave to a small gang of people, be my guest. 

LOL.  How did you get from anything that I said to slavery?

By the way, this is why libertarians are still a joke.  Are you really sure it was a good idea to pick a fight with your best friend?  Are you too young to remember the 70s and 80s? 

[FreeMoney]

Wow, I thought I was a strong libertarian... but this thread is showing me that Im weak... LOL

I would have thought taxing citizens to build roads was a no-brainer, guess I will have to reconsider that, or perhaps reconsider some of my libertarian views as well.

It is far from being a no-brainer (except maybe in the other direction). Subsidizing something that kills people (even people who don't drive, but pay so others can) pollutes, and cuts every city into blocks is awful.

It's like the most massive gift ever to an industry. If I invent something that will help everyone get around but just needs hundreds of billions of dollars of outside help it's a terrible idea. Really it needs more than that, they also have to force people to give up land for a lower price than they value it out. Easily trillions all totaled. Not to mention the lives, it's a 9/11 every month.

[arklan]

since we're WAY off the original topic anyway i'm gonna ask something I've been wondering about libertarian views. i get the road privatization thing, actually. ghetto's? well, they would have shit for roads just like they have shit for houses. *shrug*

but what about medical? the current system in the US (where i'm from) is jacked, i think we can all agree. medical insurance and all. one alternative, obviously, is the socialist route like they have in some countries like the UK and other places. what's the libertarian angle?

[hazek]

since we're WAY off the original topic anyway i'm gonna ask something I've been wondering about libertarian views. i get the road privatization thing, actually. ghetto's? well, they would have shit for roads just like they have shit for houses. *shrug*

but what about medical? the current system in the US (where i'm from) is jacked, i think we can all agree. medical insurance and all. one alternative, obviously, is the socialist route like they have in some countries like the UK and other places. what's the libertarian angle?

COMPETITION IN A MARKET REGULATED STRICTLY BY IT'S CONSUMERS (i.e. a free market), you know, kind of like what we have with Bitcoin exchanges today where if you haven't noticed rates are getting lower and lower all the time and more and more exchanges are coming in with better and better services.

[kangasbros]

since we're WAY off the original topic anyway i'm gonna ask something I've been wondering about libertarian views. i get the road privatization thing, actually. ghetto's? well, they would have shit for roads just like they have shit for houses. *shrug*

but what about medical? the current system in the US (where i'm from) is jacked, i think we can all agree. medical insurance and all. one alternative, obviously, is the socialist route like they have in some countries like the UK and other places. what's the libertarian angle?

COMPETITION IN A MARKET REGULATED STRICTLY BY IT'S CONSUMERS (i.e. a free market), you know, kind of like what we have with Bitcoin exchanges today where if you haven't noticed rates are getting lower and lower all the time and more and more exchanges are coming in with better and better services.

Yeah, the libertarian viewpoint is always very simple: just leave it to free markets.

The problem I see constantly is that libertarians compare something that free market is very good producing at (like bitcoin exchanges, or consumer goods in general) to something that free market hasn't succeeded producing in very efficient/consumer-friendly way, like health care. "Just let free market handle it", without going to any practicalities, because "invisible hand is always the best solution". This is very simplistic and annoying.

[hazek]

There's a free market in health care?   Where? How?

[kangasbros]

There's a free market in health care?   Where? How?

In Somalia, for example.

[Bitcoin Oz]

Why do you need roads when you can have flying cars ?

[bitcats]

There's a free market in health care?   Where? How?

In Somalia, for example.

In Somalia??
http://www.path.org/files/FGM-The-Facts.htm
"Female Genital Mutilation..., the prevalence varies from 98 percent in Somalia to 5 percent in Zaire."

http://www.desertflowerfoundation.org/en/

[asdf]

But what you are describing really sounds like a local government, in fact even if not in name.  I can't think of any obvious difference.

The only difference is that the trade is voluntary. It's a big difference.

[asdf]

Taxes i.e. letting a small group of people rob me? No thank you.

Kindly stop driving on our roads... Thanks

Sure, give me back my taxes.

[Steve]

Yeah, the libertarian viewpoint is always very simple: just leave it to free markets.

The problem I see constantly is that libertarians compare something that free market is very good producing at (like bitcoin exchanges, or consumer goods in general) to something that free market hasn't succeeded producing in very efficient/consumer-friendly way, like health care. "Just let free market handle it", without going to any practicalities, because "invisible hand is always the best solution". This is very simplistic and annoying.

The tendency of people to conflate issues and over think simple things is annoying.  Simple is simple.

[nevafuse]

Elwar, I think your public roads speech was really overcomplicating things. Next time, just say that roads are government subsidizing of a specific type of transportation, which makes it impossible for other transportation types to compete. Government subsidy of highways is why trains and other type of public transportation that people in other countries get for cheap, can't compete, and why our public transportation is so expensive and sucks so much. Ask them if they prefer two hours in traffic that costs them gas, maintenance fees, and nerves, or an hour in a very comfy and fast train that costs them something like $15 round trip (as you can do in most of Europe). If you want to blame something for the destruction of our great rail and trolley system, highway subsidies is it.

A friend just got back from 6 months in Europe & was very clear that flying is a lot cheaper than trains.  It also wouldn't surprise me if trains in Europe are heavily subsidized.  So using trains as a competing example probably isn't the best idea.  And finding a good example period is extremely difficult because almost all forms of transportation everywhere in the world are subsidized by the government.

[nimda]

Not again with Somalia
Somalia was a shithole. Now it's an anarchist shithole. It might be a better shithole than before, though.
If "go move to Somalia" is your argument against anarchy, "go move to 1800's Somalia" is my argument against statism.

[Elwar]

There's a free market in health care?   Where? How?

Look at the fringes of our current system that are outside of our socialized medicine.

Look at the price and prevalence of Lasik eye surgery. It is a surgery not covered by insurance and yet the price gets cheaper, the technology improves significantly and it is offered all over the place.

Imagine the same for every other medical treatment.

[unclescrooge]

Elwar, I think your public roads speech was really overcomplicating things. Next time, just say that roads are government subsidizing of a specific type of transportation, which makes it impossible for other transportation types to compete. Government subsidy of highways is why trains and other type of public transportation that people in other countries get for cheap, can't compete, and why our public transportation is so expensive and sucks so much. Ask them if they prefer two hours in traffic that costs them gas, maintenance fees, and nerves, or an hour in a very comfy and fast train that costs them something like $15 round trip (as you can do in most of Europe). If you want to blame something for the destruction of our great rail and trolley system, highway subsidies is it.

A friend just got back from 6 months in Europe & was very clear that flying is a lot cheaper than trains.  It also wouldn't surprise me if trains in Europe are heavily subsidized.  So using trains as a competing example probably isn't the best idea.  And finding a good example period is extremely difficult because almost all forms of transportation everywhere in the world are subsidized by the government.

Trains are indeed heavily subsidized (at least in France). And yet more expensive than flying.

[Rassah]

Elwar, I think your public roads speech was really overcomplicating things. Next time, just say that roads are government subsidizing of a specific type of transportation, which makes it impossible for other transportation types to compete. Government subsidy of highways is why trains and other type of public transportation that people in other countries get for cheap, can't compete, and why our public transportation is so expensive and sucks so much. Ask them if they prefer two hours in traffic that costs them gas, maintenance fees, and nerves, or an hour in a very comfy and fast train that costs them something like $15 round trip (as you can do in most of Europe). If you want to blame something for the destruction of our great rail and trolley system, highway subsidies is it.

A friend just got back from 6 months in Europe & was very clear that flying is a lot cheaper than trains.  It also wouldn't surprise me if trains in Europe are heavily subsidized.  So using trains as a competing example probably isn't the best idea.  And finding a good example period is extremely difficult because almost all forms of transportation everywhere in the world are subsidized by the government.

You may be right; I think the actual rails are subsidized and only the trains that run on them are privately owned, so maybe not a good example. As for being more expensive than flying, for long distance (5+ hour drive), maybe, but I remember a trip from Rome to Netuno Italy (about an hour) was ~$16 round trip, and from London to Cambridge (about two hours) was ~$30 round trip. Both trains were local, traveling at about 80 to 100mph, while here in east USA, our Acella Express (US version of high speed train) only has a top speed of about 120mph, and costs about three times as much, despite also being subsidized.
I don't know what the situation is like in Japan, so even though they are also well known for their trains, I didn't bother bringing them up.