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 Author Topic: What are the chances of an address collision? and what happens when it does?  (Read 22380 times)
kokojie (OP)
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 What are the chances of an address collision? and what happens when it does? August 29, 2012, 05:22:22 PM

What are the chances of an address collision? when for example 1 billion people are using bitcoin and on average they generate 10 address per person.

also what exactly will happen when address collision occurs?

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 Re: What are the chances of an address collision? and what happens when it does? August 29, 2012, 05:24:02 PMLast edit: August 29, 2012, 05:37:04 PM by Vladimir

Chances are negligible. If collision occurs with a funded address, attacker you can transfer funds elsewhere.

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kokojie (OP)
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 Re: What are the chances of an address collision? and what happens when it does? August 29, 2012, 05:25:40 PM

Chance are negligible. If collision occurs with a funded address, attacker you can transfer funds elsewhere.

Chances are still negligible when 1 billion people are using it?  also can't I just run some kind of bots, that randomly generate addresses to see if
they have funds in them?

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enmaku
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 Re: What are the chances of an address collision? and what happens when it does? August 29, 2012, 05:26:37 PM

In your scenario, 1,000,000,000 people are using 10 addresses each for a total of 10,000,000,000 possible addresses
10,000,000,000 / 2^160 should yield the probability of a collision occurring
10,000,000,000 / 2^160 = 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000684

So the chances of a collision occurring in your scenario are approximately 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000684%

See why we don't consider collisions an issue?
enmaku
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 Re: What are the chances of an address collision? and what happens when it does? August 29, 2012, 05:28:45 PM

can't I just run some kind of bots, that randomly generate addresses to see if they have funds in them?

See this question on the StackExchange site for a rundown of why brute-forcing private keys (which is essentially what you're describing) is also a no-go.
maaku
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 Re: What are the chances of an address collision? and what happens when it does? August 29, 2012, 05:29:12 PM

Chance are negligible. If collision occurs with a funded address, attacker you can transfer funds elsewhere.

Chances are still negligible when 1 billion people are using it?  also can't I just run some kind of bots, that randomly generate addresses to see if
they have funds in them?

Yes, chances remain negligible. You could run your bot, but it'd be a waste of electricity. Chances are you'd wait the lifetime of the universe before finding a collision.

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kokojie (OP)
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 Re: What are the chances of an address collision? and what happens when it does? August 29, 2012, 05:30:44 PM

Chance are negligible. If collision occurs with a funded address, attacker you can transfer funds elsewhere.

Chances are still negligible when 1 billion people are using it?  also can't I just run some kind of bots, that randomly generate addresses to see if
they have funds in them?

Yes, chances remain negligible. You could run your bot, but it'd be a waste of electricity. Chances are you'd wait the lifetime of the universe before finding a collision.

But probability also says, I could have a success on my first run? isn't it?

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enmaku
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 Re: What are the chances of an address collision? and what happens when it does? August 29, 2012, 05:32:23 PM

Chance are negligible. If collision occurs with a funded address, attacker you can transfer funds elsewhere.

Chances are still negligible when 1 billion people are using it?  also can't I just run some kind of bots, that randomly generate addresses to see if
they have funds in them?

Yes, chances remain negligible. You could run your bot, but it'd be a waste of electricity. Chances are you'd wait the lifetime of the universe before finding a collision.

Not to mention that even if you could find addresses, if the block reward went to zero TODAY without a billion people using Bitcoin, even today's minute amounts of transaction fees would still be worth more per cpu/gpu/fpga cycle than if you'd spent that same cycle looking for populated addresses. Given that the same equipment you'd use in such an address search should, because of the similarity of the tasks, be capable of mining as well, it would be more profitable to use that equipment for mining purposes.
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 Re: What are the chances of an address collision? and what happens when it does? August 29, 2012, 05:33:34 PM

But probability also says, I could have a success on my first run? isn't it?
Yes.

In conclusion don't store everything on one address. (Also minimizes risk of a given generator being malignant.)

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hashman
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 Re: What are the chances of an address collision? and what happens when it does? August 29, 2012, 05:34:14 PM

Every time this questions pops up people start flooding the board with zeros.  Scientific notation people!

I grabbed this response from stackexchange, Thomas Pornin:

Quote

If we have a "perfect" hash function with output size n, and we have p messages to hash (individual message length is not important), then probability of collision is about p^2 / 2^(n+1) (this is an approximation which is valid for "small" p, i.e. substantially smaller than 2n/2). For instance, with SHA-256 (n=256) and one billion messages (p=109) then the probability is about 4.3*10-60.

A mass-murderer space rock happens about once every 30 million years on average. This leads to a probability of such an event occurring in the next second to about 10-15. That's 45 orders of magnitude more probable than the SHA-256 collision [in 1b messages]. Briefly stated, if you find SHA-256 collisions scary then your priorities are wrong.

DeathAndTaxes
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Gerald Davis

 Re: What are the chances of an address collision? and what happens when it does? August 29, 2012, 05:35:42 PM

The odds in colliding with a specific address is 1 in 2^160.

If there are a billion users and each have one million active addresses (1 quadrillion funded addresses in the blockchain) the odds in colliding with any address would be roughly 1 in 2^110 (1*10^33).

Vanitygen can produce 20 million keypairs per second.  Lets say you build a super ASIC on 12nm (4 generations ahead of current tech) process that could create, validate, and steal one trillion keypairs per second (1 TK/s). That would be about 50,000x more powerful than faster GPU today.  Lets also say you built a thousand of them and ran them continually with no downtime 24/7/365.   In 1 year you could brute force 3*10^28 possible addresses.

If there are 1 quadrillion funded addresses you would still have a ~1% chance of colliding with a random funded address in the next 1,000 years.

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Chance are negligible. If collision occurs with a funded address, attacker you can transfer funds elsewhere.
muyuu
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 Re: What are the chances of an address collision? and what happens when it does? August 29, 2012, 05:37:36 PM

But probability also says, I could have a success on my first run? isn't it?

It's a lot more likely that you're struck by lightning or a meteor. So get your priorities straight and worry about that.

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enmaku
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 Re: What are the chances of an address collision? and what happens when it does? August 29, 2012, 05:42:52 PM

Chance are negligible. If collision occurs with a funded address, attacker you can transfer funds elsewhere.

Chances are still negligible when 1 billion people are using it?  also can't I just run some kind of bots, that randomly generate addresses to see if
they have funds in them?

Yes, chances remain negligible. You could run your bot, but it'd be a waste of electricity. Chances are you'd wait the lifetime of the universe before finding a collision.

But probability also says, I could have a success on my first run? isn't it?

Sure, you could absolutely find a success on your first run, but let's apply probability to your scenario.

Let's say there are a billion people using 10 addresses each for 10 billion total addresses.

This means that each address you generate has a (1/2^160)*10,000,000,000 possibility of holding a balance, giving your first attempt a 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000684% chance of finding a collision on your first attempt.

You are correct in stating that with each try it will either happen or it won't, there is no in-between state, and you're correct in stating that it's possible. It's also bad news for the account holder that a collision would give you control of those funds.

Comparatively speaking, your odds of being struck by lightning in a given calendar year are about 1 in 280,000. The odds of winning my local lottery are about 1 in 176,000,000. So finding a collision on your first try is roughly equivalent to being hit by lightning 16,540,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times per second for an entire year or winning the lottery 830,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times.

If you find a collision I would stay indoors and play the lottery.
DeathAndTaxes
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Gerald Davis

 Re: What are the chances of an address collision? and what happens when it does? August 29, 2012, 05:44:45 PM

So finding a collision on your first try is roughly equivalent to being hit by lightning 16,540,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times per second for an entire year or winning the lottery 830,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times.

enmaku
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 Re: What are the chances of an address collision? and what happens when it does? August 29, 2012, 05:47:26 PM

Every time this questions pops up people start flooding the board with zeros.  Scientific notation people!

That's because most folks who don't already understand how big 2^160 is also don't understand how small 3e-38 is. The zeroes drive the point home.
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 Re: What are the chances of an address collision? and what happens when it does? August 29, 2012, 05:47:58 PM

You are, however, much better off generating collisions on various deterministic wallets like brainwallets etc... there are plenty of people out there who do not get it why some passwords/keys must be strong.

If lucky you will teach some punks a good lesson BTW.

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CoinDiver
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 Re: What are the chances of an address collision? and what happens when it does? August 29, 2012, 05:50:59 PM

approximately 3,720 to 1

http://mises.org/daily/3229
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 Re: What are the chances of an address collision? and what happens when it does? August 29, 2012, 05:52:13 PM

Generating the addresses is one thing....

What if checking the balance for each and every key takes just as long? It might take 10x as long.

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 Re: What are the chances of an address collision? and what happens when it does? August 29, 2012, 05:58:22 PM

An address collision would be a SHA256 collision

And if you find a SHA256 collision then bitcoin is the last of our problem

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 Re: What are the chances of an address collision? and what happens when it does? August 29, 2012, 06:04:03 PM

An address collision would be a SHA256 collision

And if you find a SHA256 collision then bitcoin is the last of our problem

Technically it would be a RIPEMD160(SHA256(SHA256())) collision. Not nitpicking, it's an important distinction given that the last step in that process yields 2^160 possible addresses instead of 2^256. 96 bits of keyspace ain't no joke son.
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