About Internet circumvention and censorship

[3kP0mR]

I posted a thread earlier on Internet circumvention in the Chinese section to help Chinese have better access to Internet including many bitcoin related websites. HorseRider asked me to remove that thread because he fears that Great Firewall of China will block this forum. So he rationalized his decision to self censor himself and asked me to do the same even though the external Gov. force is not present.







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Details:
Discussion thread is this: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=94865.20

His opinion

3kP0mR

You have post a Chinese post in the Chinese sub forum. Please delete it yourself. It's bad for the bitcoin movement in China. The GFW will detect that post, and then 98% people in China who don't know about dealing with GFW will not be able to visit and join this community. You are doing very bad things for the bitcoin.

I'm a anti-gfw fan myself. I know that the post you made there is not write by yourself. you just copy from some where else.

Please delete that post. you don't even want to use your the other frequently used ID, which is to protect your identity. I urge you to protect this bitcoin community forum as you protect yourself.

This post is totally irrelevant and bad for the bitcoin movement. the GFW will ban this forum if you keep posting things like this. You damage the bitcoin movement in China, you damage the long term fund raising ability for all the libertarians in China.

Just delete the Chinese anti-GFW post and do your job in English. protect the possibility for the average Chinese people to visit this forum.

3kP0mR

Please delete the OP. you don't even want to use your the other frequently used ID, which is to protect your identity. I urge you to protect this bitcoin community forum as you protect yourself.
...
Just delete the OP!

My reply

I've removed the content for now. However,I don't think it's a good idea to impose self censorship when you have the freedom to say the truth which is protected by Chinese Constitution. It's even worse than the case where one is forcefully silent by an external force.

I noticed that you use the word "protect" many a time, which practically means don't say any thing the Chinese Gov. doesn't like. It's pitiful that netizen can't post freely on Chinese forum. But even to do so when you are free of that restriction and continue to keep silent is the worst decision ever. You are not believing that one hand has four fingers and five fingers simultaneously right?

[1714861772]

1714861772

[1714861772]

1714861772

[1714861772]

1714861772

[HorseRider]

please do vote for no.

the op is very selfish. he cares nothing about bitcoin's future in China.

Satoshi wanted wikileak stay away from bitcoin, and me now want the op restrain his anti Chinese internet censorship activity in English.

your tone of voice is full of moral advantage, which is 100% illusion and bitchy. there are tons of website and blog you can post about the gfw, you are free. but this forum is to promote and grow the bitcoin community , you're really son of bitch to endanger the community into the radar of gfw by posting it here.

this forum is about bitcoin.  you can say anything you want if and only if not damage thw interest of this community. one of the most important interst of this forum is to let as many as possible Chinese join bitcoin community, and the selfish post contain the key words which are included in gfw's list . it will be very possible this forum will be banned from China if we don't stop this. we might will never be able to see as much as many detuch or russian users register on this forum.

the op is damaging other Chinese's freedom to get to here by his off topic post.

对于关注这个问题的中国人，我可以这样说，楼主就是一个跟cai ling差不多的烂人。到这里来关注bitcoin的，在这个阶段到这里来浏览的人，大多已经掌握了翻墙技术。而官方网的爬虫非常强大，出现这类关键字几乎立马被墙。楼主居然站在道德高地上开vote，你太自私了。

我号召所有关注bitcoin发展的中国人，如果有和管理员熟悉的，给不懂中文的管理员写信，讲清楚楼主的行为对于bitcoin在中国进行推广的危害。我的一个私人blog，只提到过一篇跳墙技术，后来就立刻被墙。用英文募资可以，不要到别的地方转技术贴过来。你在损害整个社区的福利，实现你自私的意气。在这里发那些帖子对于普及翻墙技术的作用太有限了，对于损害bitcoin的作用却是极大的。我他妈跳墙这么多年，也他妈不是靠你这种烂人的“帮助”。

[John (John K.)]

I posted a thread earlier on Internet circumvention in the Chinese section to help Chinese have better access to Internet including many bitcoin related websites. HorseRider asked me to remove that thread because he fears that Great Firewall of China will block this forum. So he rationalized his decision to self censor himself and asked me to do the same even though the external Gov. force is not present.







--------------------------------
Details:
Discussion thread is this: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=94865.20

His opinion

3kP0mR

You have post a Chinese post in the Chinese sub forum. Please delete it yourself. It's bad for the bitcoin movement in China. The GFW will detect that post, and then 98% people in China who don't know about dealing with GFW will not be able to visit and join this community. You are doing very bad things for the bitcoin.

I'm a anti-gfw fan myself. I know that the post you made there is not write by yourself. you just copy from some where else.

Please delete that post. you don't even want to use your the other frequently used ID, which is to protect your identity. I urge you to protect this bitcoin community forum as you protect yourself.

This post is totally irrelevant and bad for the bitcoin movement. the GFW will ban this forum if you keep posting things like this. You damage the bitcoin movement in China, you damage the long term fund raising ability for all the libertarians in China.

Just delete the Chinese anti-GFW post and do your job in English. protect the possibility for the average Chinese people to visit this forum.

3kP0mR

Please delete the OP. you don't even want to use your the other frequently used ID, which is to protect your identity. I urge you to protect this bitcoin community forum as you protect yourself.
...
Just delete the OP!

My reply

I've removed the content for now. However,I don't think it's a good idea to impose self censorship when you have the freedom to say the truth which is protected by Chinese Constitution. It's even worse than the case where one is forcefully silent by an external force.

I noticed that you use the word "protect" many a time, which practically means don't say any thing the Chinese Gov. doesn't like. It's pitiful that netizen can't post freely on Chinese forum. But even to do so when you are free of that restriction and continue to keep silent is the worst decision ever. You are not believing that one hand has four fingers and five fingers simultaneously right?

Please refrain from posting this here. The last thing we need here is getting added to the GFW list. I'm not based in China, but I do know the Chinese government's zeal for censorship - they either have a big pool of operators working 24/7 to add more websites to the list, or their automated system is amazing. Anyone who uses Bitcoin in China should have knowledge about circumventing the firewall already, so advertising this will do more harm then help.

[jl2012]

Anyone who uses Bitcoin in China should have knowledge about circumventing the firewall already, so advertising this will do more harm then help.

Totally agree. I hate the wall but there is no point to advertise anti-wall skills here.

[3kP0mR]

please do vote for no.

the op is very selfish. he cares nothing about bitcoin's future in China.

Satoshi wanted wikileak stay away from bitcoin, and me now want the op restrain his anti Chinese internet censorship activity in English.

your tone of voice is full of moral advantage, which is 100% illusion and bitchy. there are tons of website and blog you can post about the gfw, you are free. but this forum is to promote and grow the bitcoin community , you're really son of bitch to endanger the community into the radar of gfw by posting it here.

this forum is about bitcoin.  you can say anything you want if and only if not damage thw interest of this community. one of the most important interst of this forum is to let as many as possible Chinese join bitcoin community, and the selfish post contain the key words which are included in gfw's list . it will be very possible this forum will be banned from China if we don't stop this. we might will never be able to see as much as many detuch or russian users register on this forum.

the op is damaging other Chinese's freedom to get to here by his off topic post.

You have a interesting view about selfish and freedom.  "one of the most important interst of this forum is to let as many as possible Chinese join bitcoin community" That's true. However, when GFW feels this community or bitcoin is a thread to them, they could block all bitcoin related websites nevertheless. Without Internet circumvention tool, what  could Chinese do then?

PS: Personal insult will do nothing to strengthen your argument

[myrkul]

Satoshi wanted wikileak stay away from bitcoin

[citation needed][需要的引證]

[3kP0mR]

Please refrain from posting this here. The last thing we need here is getting added to the GFW list. I'm not based in China, but I do know the Chinese government's zeal for censorship - they either have a big pool of operators working 24/7 to add more websites to the list, or their automated system is amazing. Anyone who uses Bitcoin in China should have knowledge about circumventing the firewall already, so advertising this will do more harm then help.

The "protect" could apply to any website and doing so what rationalize imposing self-censorship in any and every website.

John's argument  much better a reason then merely impose self-censorship in order to "protect" the community. So I will stop posting here in Chinese. However, I will impose self-censorship on other none technically savvy website/forum.

[jl2012]

However, when GFW feels this community or bitcoin is a thread to them, they could block all bitcoin related websites nevertheless.

What you are doing will make GFW feels this community or bitcoin is a threat to them

Without Internet circumvention tool, what  could Chinese do then?

There are plenty of circumvention tools already.

[jl2012]

Satoshi wanted wikileak stay away from bitcoin

[citation needed][需要的引證]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1735.msg26999#msg26999

[3kP0mR]

There are plenty of circumvention tools already.

Yes. Except that most Chinese can't get them or don't even know they exist.

With his argument, we should delete all articles about it on wikipedia to "protect" wikipedia, which is of course absurd .

[3kP0mR]

Satoshi wanted wikileak stay away from bitcoin

[citation needed][需要的引證]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1735.msg26999#msg26999

Yet, wikileaks still accepts  Bitcoin even now and Bitcoin is no way gone or harmed.

[myrkul]

However, when GFW feels this community or bitcoin is a thread to them, they could block all bitcoin related websites nevertheless.

What you are doing will make GFW feels this community or bitcoin is a threat to them

Because it is. Sorry. Fact of life, oppressive governments don't like freedom. Especially economic freedom.

I make this appeal to WikiLeaks not to try to use Bitcoin.  Bitcoin is a small beta community in its infancy.  You would not stand to get more than pocket change, and the heat you would bring would likely destroy us at this stage.

That's two years ago. We're well past that stage now. Satoshi would no doubt rejoice at seeing that Wikileaks now accepts Bitcoin, and is thumbing their nose at the CC companies and governments alike.

[jl2012]

There are plenty of circumvention tools already.

Yes. Except that most Chinese can't get them or don't even know they exist.

With his argument, we should delete all articles about it on wikipedia to "protect" wikipedia, which is of course absurd .

Yes, but as you have agreed, Chinese bitcoin users here should know these tools.

By the way, bitcoin is a currency, a channel of payment, not an encyclopedia. If you want to advertise your tool in this forum, the best place to go is the off-topic section.

[myrkul]

By the way, bitcoin is a currency, a channel of payment, not an encyclopedia. If you want to advertise your tool in this forum, the best place to go is the off-topic section.

Actually, if it's a tool for Chinese users of Bitcoin, the best place is in the Chinese forum.

[jl2012]

However, when GFW feels this community or bitcoin is a thread to them, they could block all bitcoin related websites nevertheless.

What you are doing will make GFW feels this community or bitcoin is a threat to them

Because it is. Sorry. Fact of life, oppressive governments don't like freedom. Especially economic freedom.

I make this appeal to WikiLeaks not to try to use Bitcoin.  Bitcoin is a small beta community in its infancy.  You would not stand to get more than pocket change, and the heat you would bring would likely destroy us at this stage.

That's two years ago. We're well past that stage now. Satoshi would no doubt rejoice at seeing that Wikileaks now accepts Bitcoin, and is thumbing their nose at the CC companies and governments alike.

The number of internet users in China is larger than the total population in the US. The trading volume in btcchina.com, however, is <2% of mtgox. Bitcoin is China is still in its infancy. Please don't kill it with the heat of anti-firewall.

Yes, the oppressive government will eventually find bitcoin as a threat to them. However, we need more Chinese people learn it before it is firewall-ed. When the government really try to wall bitcoin, Chinese people will learn to circumvent it to protect their wealth.

[myrkul]

The number of internet users in China is larger than the total population in the US. The trading volume in btcchina.com, however, is <2% of mtgox. Bitcoin is China is still in its infancy. Please don't kill it with the heat of anti-firewall.

Yes, the oppressive government will eventually find bitcoin as a threat to them. However, we need more Chinese people learn it before it is firewall-ed. When the government really try to wall bitcoin, Chinese people will learn to circumvent it to protect their wealth.

You do know that Gox trades in more than USD, right? There's CNY and HKD activity on there, too. Besides, these two statements cancel each other out:

Please don't kill it with the heat of anti-firewall.

Chinese people will learn to circumvent it to protect their wealth.

The more Chinese Bitcoin users have a tool to circumvent it, the faster Bitcoin will spread after the wall comes down. It's in their best interest to get that tool to as many users as possible.

[jl2012]

The number of internet users in China is larger than the total population in the US. The trading volume in btcchina.com, however, is <2% of mtgox. Bitcoin is China is still in its infancy. Please don't kill it with the heat of anti-firewall.

Yes, the oppressive government will eventually find bitcoin as a threat to them. However, we need more Chinese people learn it before it is firewall-ed. When the government really try to wall bitcoin, Chinese people will learn to circumvent it to protect their wealth.

You do know that Gox trades in more than USD, right? There's CNY and HKD activity on there, too. Besides, these two statements cancel each other out:

Please don't kill it with the heat of anti-firewall.

Chinese people will learn to circumvent it to protect their wealth.

The more Chinese Bitcoin users have a tool to circumvent it, the faster Bitcoin will spread after the wall comes down. It's in their best interest to get that tool to as many users as possible.

I am not sure if you have ever experienced the Chinese firewall. If you just learn it from media, obviously you won't really know how it works.

The argument is, promoting anti-firewall here will alert the firewall and the wall will come A LOT EARLIER. The wall will (either automatically or manually) filter any sites with anti-firewall keywords.

[myrkul]

I am not sure if you have ever experienced the Chinese firewall. If you just learn it from media, obviously you won't really know how it works.

The argument is, promoting anti-firewall here will alert the firewall and the wall will come A LOT EARLIER. The wall will (either automatically or manually) filter any sites with anti-firewall keywords.

In other words, even this discussion might trigger it. You're screwed whatever you do.

[jl2012]

I am not sure if you have ever experienced the Chinese firewall. If you just learn it from media, obviously you won't really know how it works.

The argument is, promoting anti-firewall here will alert the firewall and the wall will come A LOT EARLIER. The wall will (either automatically or manually) filter any sites with anti-firewall keywords.

In other words, even this discussion might trigger it. You're screwed whatever you do.

As long as we use English, the risk is minimal.

[3kP0mR]

Yes, the oppressive government will eventually find bitcoin as a threat to them. However, we need more Chinese people learn it before it is firewall-ed.When the government really try to wall bitcoin, Chinese people will learn to circumvent it to protect their wealth.

How could they learn that, when you didn't even let me post information about it?