It's Happening .... The secrets of 21 inc revealed, and its what we hoped for.

[OBAViJEST]

In an effort to seem intelligent, your argument misses the point to begin with.

Props for turning a discussion into an argument; extra points for starting if off with an insult!

Which pretty much necessarily

...although I'd refrain from calling other people idiots from now on.

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[TheRealSteve]

Patent trolls are a scumbag thing that will disappear when we change our [...] laws

Let's hope so - at least in the U.S. there seems to be bipartisan support.  And yes, that was definitely an extreme end example

And at this point, I think any company that isn't a complete scam, like a ponzi or whatever is probably good for bitcoin, because it means that there are more use cases (or more choices). Even if it doesn't necessarily benefit all bitcoiners (or even a majority of them).

Oh yeah, in those terms, definitely a good thing - even speculation, to an extent, is a good thing as at least it keeps people interested

[futureofbitcoin]

Props for turning a discussion into an argument; extra points for starting if off with an insult!

Semantics aside of whether something is a discussion or argument, I'm sorry if that came off as an insult. I just find that in such discussions/arguments, people often get too deep into it, trying to "win", and eventually everyone loses sight of the big picture and it becomes completely derailed from the original topic. Happens to me too.

[fdylstyx]

Big thread, I actually read it all and the question that just kept coming at me is why don't they (whoever "they" may be) just work a deal with the electricity providers. A asiac chip in every meter. A slight raise in rates across the board will benefit both the mining and the electric companies.

The paying customers accept that some of the power they buy is a good thing. Even though they don't understand decentralization any better than they understand why some places experience brownouts and others never do but they do understand less banking fees and naturally want to get them even if it means another card in their wallet or an app on their phone.

fdyl

Edit: I forgot to mention the rebate that the customers would get each quarter. Each according to their average usage. Win, win, win.

[fdylstyx]

Big thread, I actually read it all and the question that just kept coming at me is why don't they (whoever "they" may be) just work a deal with the electricity providers. A asiac chip in every meter. A slight raise in rates across the board will benefit both the mining and the electric companies.

The paying customers accept that some of the power they buy is a good thing. Even though they don't understand decentralization any better than they understand why some places experience brownouts and others never do but they do understand less banking fees and naturally want to get them even if it means another card in their wallet or an app on their phone.

fdyl

Maybe they'll just throw out a ton of water powered turbines in the ocean that use the waves to generate power and have an air tight container for large miners that run ocean water through to cool themselves. In all reality they aren't going to do anything crazy amazing or out there without public knowledge, investors aren't going to throw down money on what ifs.

That seems more centralized, but a great idea just the same. Until some diver is paid to attach a few strategically placed charges. I thought the idea of decentralization was spreading the wealth as far and wide as possible.

[OBAViJEST]

Props for turning a discussion into an argument; extra points for starting if off with an insult!

Semantics aside of whether something is a discussion or argument, I'm sorry if that came off as an insult. I just find that in such discussions/arguments, people often get too deep into it, trying to "win", and eventually everyone loses sight of the big picture and it becomes completely derailed from the original topic. Happens to me too.

Hehe no worries man!  I just wanted to bring things back to baseline

Regarding what you've just said - that's an ability few people have, to 'take a step back' and look at the situation from a different angle...you have my respect!

Cheers

[Abdussamad]

If toasters and fridges start mining bitcoins then what do they need humans for? They can earn their own living and that'll be the start of the end of the human race!

[JorgeStolfi]

Big thread, I actually read it all and the question that just kept coming at me is why don't they (whoever "they" may be) just work a deal with the electricity providers. A asiac chip in every meter. A slight raise in rates across the board will benefit both the mining and the electric companies.

The paying customers accept that some of the power they buy is a good thing. Even though they don't understand decentralization any better than they understand why some places experience brownouts and others never do but they do understand less banking fees and naturally want to get them even if it means another card in their wallet or an app on their phone.

fdyl

Edit: I forgot to mention the rebate that the customers would get each quarter. Each according to their average usage. Win, win, win.

If the mining chips are profitable with normal home electricity prices, then the company will be better off building a mining farm with them in some location where the elecrticity is cheaper.

If the mining chips are not profitable -- meaning that the price of the bitcoins that they mine is less than the price of the electricity that they use -- and their electricty consumption is added to the customer's normal usage, then the customer would take a big loss, while the company and the utility will profit.  

So, any idea that means taking some extra electricity from the customer's feed is a non-stater.  Inserting the chips near the input meter, or at any random place on the home's wiring, would be a bad idea.  Adding the chips to any devices that use electricity to do something other than generate heat --such as battery rechargers, blenders, TVs, computers, microwave ovens, lamps -- will increase the device's consumption, so it is equally bad.

The only devices where the chips could be placed without scamming the consumer are those that resistively convert the electricity to heat.  But chips canot work if they get any hotter than ~70 C; so electric stoves, ovens, grills, teapots, and flatirons are also out.

It seems that only water and space heaters are left.  But someone went through the math, and concluded that the monetary advantage to the customer would be too small to make a difference.

[ebliever]

The only devices where the chips could be placed without scamming the consumer are those that resistively convert the electricity to heat.  But chips canot work if they get any hotter than ~70 C; so electric stoves, ovens, grills, teapots, and flatirons are also out.

My 290X's ran 24/7 for almost a year at 90-92 C, so chips can be designed to go higher. The past ~10 years has seen a major shift to lead-free solder in electronics manufacturing. The unleaded solders typically require a substantially higher soldering temperature, which means the components have to be rated for the higher temperature going through reflow. So if they designed it with heat in mind, I suspect they could take it to 105 C or higher in sustained operation. (105 C being a common test level for certain automotive applications, for example.)

[tyz]

In my eyes it is nothing sensational. I doubt that the venture capital will have any return on investment. It is just not practicable for many people.

[Cryddit]

Honestly electronics can be designed to work at very high temperatures; the problem with that, is that the ways we know how to do it will produce electronics that DON'T work until they reach some approximation of those temperatures.

So, yeah, if you wanted to build chips that operate at 200 degrees celsius you could do it.  But you'd have to get them up to at least boiling temperature before they'd start to work.

[jimmothy]

So The Register writes an article about an article from the Financial Times.

One of the opening lines from the FT is "All we do know is that the company, headed by Matthew Pauker, has raised more than $116m worth of venture funding"

There are no facts, no quotes from anyone from 21 or anyone who has a bleeding clue.

Their guesswork sounds like a pretty dumb idea. It's worth calling it a dumb idea if the people they're guessing about actually confirm it.

The jokester who made up this toaster thing is probably reading this thread and having a laugh.

There is absolutely no way 21 inc raised $116 million based on the idea of putting miners in appliances that people use ~5 minutes per day. No chance in hell.

I can't believe so many people actually believe this is their business plan.

[Shindo1988]

For the article:

The new firm's website lists 18 jobs that it is seeking to fill, ranging from an 'ASIC design engineer' to a business development executive for hardware, offering a glimpse into the startup's plans.

Did anybody consider that they might be trying to create the next generation ASIC?
It would make sense.

[Amph]

For the article:

The new firm's website lists 18 jobs that it is seeking to fill, ranging from an 'ASIC design engineer' to a business development executive for hardware, offering a glimpse into the startup's plans.

Did anybody consider that they might be trying to create the next generation ASIC?
It would make sense.

there is any proof that their asic chips that will go to plant  in our appliances will work with a better technology, let's say at 16nm productive process?

[BTC_Superman]

Hope for the best. Hope, this idea will turn into a good decision.

[RoadStress]

The jokester who made up this toaster thing is probably reading this thread and having a laugh.

There is absolutely no way 21 inc raised $116 million based on the idea of putting miners in appliances that people use ~5 minutes per day. No chance in hell.

I can't believe so many people actually believe this is their business plan.

But what if they put it inside routers for example and for start? Those devices run 24/7 and they always have an internet connection. Something like this could be the real decentralization of mining. If they can have something like 5-10W for bitcoin mining then people wouldn't mind the added cost of electricity. When this will happen I imagine all the big farms offering mining services to big companies for various reasons.

[inBitweTrust]

The jokester who made up this toaster thing is probably reading this thread and having a laugh.

There is absolutely no way 21 inc raised $116 million based on the idea of putting miners in appliances that people use ~5 minutes per day. No chance in hell.

I can't believe so many people actually believe this is their business plan.

But what if they put it inside routers for example and for start? Those devices run 24/7 and they always have an internet connection. Something like this could be the real decentralization of mining. If they can have something like 5-10W for bitcoin mining then people wouldn't mind the added cost of electricity. When this will happen I imagine all the big farms offering mining services to big companies for various reasons.

This is a good point. It isn't just about recycling heat but the added convenience of making mining slightly easier by integrating the unit within a router.... plug and play. From an engineering perspective an ASIC in a router is a horrible idea because it just adds to extra unneeded heat which needs to be properly vented, but engineering isn't the only consideration. If these units were free + 10 S.H. online or 5 dollars a piece retail than they would sell like crazy compared to 50 dollar routers. The danger would be in too many people ordering them as a router backup and not using them however so they would need to keep the potential profitability for the 25% BTC interesting.

Either way, I would have to be honest to the community and tell them the break even and projected ROI depending upon the electrical rates. It could turn out to either be a rent to own deal where the router is free but ends up costing more money over the course of 1 year or it could be a situation where the ASIC router is only wise to use if they live in a location of cheap electrical rates or they have free electricity (renewable energy and/or renters). The people discounting this business plan don't seem to grasp that both these options have a large market demand and will likely be successful as long as 21 can keep manufacturing costs down and the units difficult to hack.

This is really a genius idea.

[RoadStress]

This is a good point. It isn't just about recycling heat but the added convenience of making mining slightly easier by integrating the unit within a router.... plug and play. From an engineering perspective an ASIC in a router is a horrible idea because it just adds to extra unneeded heat which needs to be properly vented, but engineering isn't the only consideration. If these units were free + 10 S.H. online or 5 dollars a piece retail than they would sell like crazy compared to 50 dollar routers. The danger would be in too many people ordering them as a router backup and not using them however so they would need to keep the potential profitability for the 25% BTC interesting.

Either way, I would have to be honest to the community and tell them the break even and projected ROI depending upon the electrical rates. It could turn out to either be a rent to own deal where the router is free but ends up costing more money over the course of 1 year or it could be a situation where the ASIC router is only wise to use if they live in a location of cheap electrical rates or they have free electricity (renewable energy and/or renters). The people discounting this business plan don't seem to grasp that both these options have a large market demand and will likely be successful as long as 21 can keep manufacturing costs down and the units difficult to hack.

This is really a genius idea.

There is no ROI discussion here because the user will not want any ROI for those devices. If they can make it so that the total added cost is minimal (maybe <5$) the user will not care about the added 10W power consumption. That's like 1$/month at 0.10c/kWh. They only need to figure a way to market them and to convince people that their use of the ASIC routers matters. The main question is where all the mining power will go and how do you manage the huge network hashrate that will come.

I also think that these can be fit inside fridges. They already run 24/7 and they have no issue with heating since they can ditch it very easy in the back side. All that's needed is an extra LAN cable to go behind it. Putting them in toasters and such will not work because they aren't being that popular as routers and they aren't being used 24/7. Any other ideas about devices?

[inBitweTrust]

Any other ideas about devices?

So the variables that make it most suitable for commercial success-

1) Added convenience
2) Recycling/Re purposing waste heat
3) Inexpensive Item - that they can give away for free and thus becomes a long term "rental"
4) Always on devices that have access to the internet

Best candidates:

Free Routers - convenience and inexpensive device
Free Coffee/Tea warmers - recycle waste heat and inexpensive device

Good candidates:

Hot water heaters -  recycle waste heat but not sold or replaced often and more expensive
Pool/ spa water heaters -  recycle waste heat but not sold or replaced often and more expensive
Space heaters - recycle waste heat but not as efficient as other heating solutions and only useful to replace portable electric units
subsidized DVR IoT/Media Box - convenience of using internet and connected to TV for control, included HD could be marketed as full node too

So-So candidates:

Fruit/meat dehydrators -  recycle waste heat but more of a specialized or custom item


Anything like toasters, stoves, or cookers are ridiculous ideas as they need to be items that are constantly on to be worthwhile.

[JorgeStolfi]

There is no ROI discussion here because the user will not want any ROI for those devices. If they can make it so that the total added cost is minimal (maybe <5$) the user will not care about the added 10W power consumption. That's like 1$/month at 0.10c/kWh. They only need to figure a way to market them and to convince people that their use of the ASIC routers matters.

I am sure that most users would strongly object to spending 1$/month more for the benefit of some company out there.

Either the devices will be a net win for the users (including the hassle of keeping the device connected and collecting the payoff), or forget it. 

One advantage of an ASIC-enabled toaster (or of the Internet of Things in general) is that the cops will know precisely when you are sitting down for breakfast, on the day they come to get you.