Decentralization of mining is returning ... thoughts on 21 inc secret plans?

[BitUsher]

How does everyone feel about free ASIC coffee makers and toasters that share some of the mining profits with the users?

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/05/06/bubblicious_bitcoin_bonkers_business_bods/

http://ftalphaville.ft.com/2015/04/30/2127543/meet-the-company-that-wants-to-put-a-bitcoin-miner-in-your-toaster/

What are the implications besides decentralizing mining more?

[Jamphone]

My two cents: These guesses are wrong. They're not spending $100 million dollars to turn your toaster into a money losing miner. It doesn't make sense.

Now, are they creating an "internet of things" capable toaster? That would make more sense. But that isn't a miner. That's a toaster that communicates with the bitcoin block chain.

[BitUsher]

My two cents: These guesses are wrong. They're not spending $100 million dollars to turn your toaster into a money losing miner. It doesn't make sense.

Now, are they creating an "internet of things" capable toaster? That would make more sense. But that isn't a miner. That's a toaster that communicates with the bitcoin block chain.

Cannot it be both? A IoT toaster needs to communicate with a network anyways.

In all honesty I think the toaster idea is a nonstarter(ASICs degassing and other problems ) and while the overview of 21 Inc plans is correct the products they mention are meant to mask or hide their yet to be revealed products which could be viable.

[s1gs3gv]

The electricity meter has to be the most ubiquitous powered gadget in the world with a network interface.

[notlist3d]

Personally I don't think it will happen large scale.  I think a dedicated miner is better then these "secret" miners.

Just most likely will not happen on integrating into regular items.

[NeuroticFish]

As I said here, this has a huge chance to actually bring even more centralization.
Do you really think that your toaster will have an ASIC powerful enough to ever find a block?

[philipma1957]

As I said here, this has a huge chance to actually bring even more centralization.
Do you really think that your toaster will have an ASIC powerful enough to ever find a block?

  I think it could make for a few big pools  which may be a problem ,but a toaster is not the item to do it with.

People in the USA have electric hot water heaters .  
A complete no brainer since the power is already being spent all year round.




People in the USA have electric baseboard radiator heat.
Once again a no brainer. Since the power is being spent.




People all over the world use spot electric  oil radiators another no brainer.

[NeuroticFish]

As I said here, this has a huge chance to actually bring even more centralization.
Do you really think that your toaster will have an ASIC powerful enough to ever find a block?

  I think it could make for a few big pools  which may be a problem ,but a toaster is not the item to do it with.

People in the USA have electric hot water heaters .  
People in the USA have electric baseboard radiator heat.
People all over the world use spot electric  oil radiators another no brainer.

Indeed, there are many ways that mining in household appliances is not that much energy stealing.
Indeed, the toaster is a rather poor example.
But the problem is that the only real way that these .. miners earn something is to mine in pools. And that's the best way 21 will also get its share.
Just then you can say bye-bye to decentralization.

[Biodom]

i think the main candidates for double use devices are:

1. electrical heaters (as philip had posted) with a limitation of seasonality
2. routers
3. cable boxes
4. TV streaming devices (such as Roku or Apple TV)

most people I know don't unplug their TV cable boxes even when they are not in use and obviously use some electricity.
same for routers, so clear choices for a dual use hashing device will be routers and cable/TV streaming boxes.
This way (routers and cable boxes) 21 would really only need to make deals with large cable companies (comcast, TW, cablevision), and not even bother with individuals.
They could kick 25% to consumers, 15-20% to large distributors and keep 55-60% to themselves.

[s1gs3gv]

The electricity meter is a much better candidate than any of these.

[Biodom]

The electricity meter is a much better candidate than any of these.

theoretically, maybe, but electricity meter that is using 0.5-1kw?

[s1gs3gv]

The electricity meter is a much better candidate than any of these.

theoretically, maybe, but electricity meter that is using 0.5-1kw?

Where do those numbers come from ?

How about 10 watts times 250 million households == 2500 megawatts of hashing power on a 14-16 nm device node, and
as infrastructure gets built out in the developing world, many many times more than this.

So, if KNC's chip design partner Alchip is getting .07w/ghs from 16nm 3d finfet technology:

http://ww3.sinaimg.cn/large/7c2c00e3jw1ervfedx421j20t412ttbd.jpg

I'm sure Qualcom can do better, lets say .05w/ghs. So, ten watts would be 200ghs per meter and 250 million electricity meters would be get you, umm … 50 ehs (exa-hashes/second). That is approximately 150 times the total hashpower of the existing network. Think about what it would do to difficulty and the effect it would have on existing mining businesses like KNC

Who gets power cheaper than the electrical utility companies ?

[Biodom]

The electricity meter is a much better candidate than any of these.

theoretically, maybe, but electricity meter that is using 0.5-1kw?

Where do those numbers come from ?

How about 10 watts times 250 million households == 2500 megawatts of hashing power on a 14-16 nm device node, and
as infrastructure gets built out in the developing world, many many times more than this.

So, if KNC's chip design partner Alchip is getting .07w/ghs from 16nm 3dFinFet technology:

http://ww3.sinaimg.cn/large/7c2c00e3jw1ervfedx421j20t412ttbd.jpg

I'm sure Qualcom can do better, lets say .05w/ghs. So, ten watts would be 200ghs per meter and 250 million electricity meters would be get you, umm … 50 ehs (exa-hashes/second). That is approximately 150 times the total hashpower of the existing network. Think about what it would do to difficulty and the effect it would have on existing mining businesses like KNC

and who gets power cheaper than the electrical utility companies ?

0.5-1kw is just a power range that I would have an interest in. 10w-frankly, i wouldn't care for myself.
cable box-33-55w
router 2-20W
electrical space heater 600w
refrigerator 57-160 w average

for numbers see http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/howmuch.html
on the right side of the page

Q: I wonder if 21 box can be positioned between a powerbox and appliances and once some major appliance kicks in (like dryer or A/c), the 21 box becomes active and draws the power as well. This way although more power will be used, it will be used at the same time as other appliances draw electricity. Alternatively, the box might get active only during the night when there is less consumption by A/C, oven, dryer and washing machine plus perhaps lower rates.

[notlist3d]

The electricity meter is a much better candidate than any of these.

theoretically, maybe, but electricity meter that is using 0.5-1kw?

It would depend on what they design but electric meter would allow lot's of electricity possibly.  I don't see it ever happening though.

I know my meter is a "smart" meter personally I miss the old metal spinner watching it whip around if i was using a lot of power.  For me watching a "-" fly across screen is not near as exciting.

[vdomeras]

A great opportunity for appliance makers, now that HDTV's  are all sold, time for lots of appliances with one year lifespans.

My C1s are heating water to around seventy degrees.  I'd love to send that water to warm my kitchen or bathroom floor in winter or to a preheating tank for my water heater year-round.

[Amph]

i still don't like that they retain the 75%, it have been fairer if it was 50% for them and 50% for us, i hope that at least those new appliances come with a cheaper price...

thinking about this, it could increase the purchase of those appliances(when they will be ready of course) if this news will spread enough

it would go go with 4k monitors, demand would rise more for sure

[alh]

I just can't make any of this discussion mesh with the realities I see from my electric company here in the US (MN in particular). They are working hard to get people to REDUCE their electric usage. I regularly am told that I can get a rebate from the electric company for every CFL or LED light bulb I buy. As I read things here, they are pushing every thing they can in order to avoid building another power plant and get it approved by their various regulatory bodies? How many power plants are required for that 2500 megawatts that was mentioned? Natural Gas or Coal, since Nuclear is essentially dead in the USA.

In general Bitcoin mining is the complete antithesis of what electric companies are doing these days.

[philipma1957]

I just can't make any of this discussion mesh with the realities I see from my electric company here in the US (MN in particular). They are working hard to get people to REDUCE their electric usage. I regularly am told that I can get a rebate from the electric company for every CFL or LED light bulb I buy. As I read things here, they are pushing every thing they can in order to avoid building another power plant and get it approved by their various regulatory bodies? How many power plants are required for that 2500 megawatts that was mentioned? Natural Gas or Coal, since Nuclear is essentially dead in the USA.

In general Bitcoin mining is the complete antithesis of what electric companies are doing these days.

generally agree.  It is why I think products burning the power already are what can be adapted.

All the heating items I mention already are burning power.

Oh here is one more a crock pot. 6-12 hours  run time  use a few chips to produce that heat and boom cook for free.

I will dig mine up to see how much power it pulls.

[RoadStress]

How about 10 watts times 250 million households == 2500 megawatts of hashing power on a 14-16 nm device node, and
as infrastructure gets built out in the developing world, many many times more than this.

So, if KNC's chip design partner Alchip is getting .07w/ghs from 16nm 3d finfet technology:

http://ww3.sinaimg.cn/large/7c2c00e3jw1ervfedx421j20t412ttbd.jpg

I'm sure Qualcom can do better, lets say .05w/ghs. So, ten watts would be 200ghs per meter and 250 million electricity meters would be get you, umm … 50 ehs (exa-hashes/second). That is approximately 150 times the total hashpower of the existing network. Think about what it would do to difficulty and the effect it would have on existing mining businesses like KNC

~10w per appliance is my bet too. Nothing to hurt the consumer financially and good enough to maintain a decent mining rate.

[notlist3d]

I just can't make any of this discussion mesh with the realities I see from my electric company here in the US (MN in particular). They are working hard to get people to REDUCE their electric usage. I regularly am told that I can get a rebate from the electric company for every CFL or LED light bulb I buy. As I read things here, they are pushing every thing they can in order to avoid building another power plant and get it approved by their various regulatory bodies? How many power plants are required for that 2500 megawatts that was mentioned? Natural Gas or Coal, since Nuclear is essentially dead in the USA.

In general Bitcoin mining is the complete antithesis of what electric companies are doing these days.

We also have to hit a point where BTC is at a higher adoption rate.   Chances are most items it is put in would be higher then one without a miner.   So we really need a point where majority of people know about crypto currency and want it before it would ever be put in a widespread made appliance.

If they did have water heater I just can imagine the sales person trying to explain BTC and a water heater that makes money.  Most people at this point I don't think are aware and would say they will take the cheaper one without the miner.

And the company that does this will be looking at bottom line.  They will look at a miner as sunk cost, unless there is a higher adoption rate and people seek out these appliances.