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Author Topic: Why do you want to change Bitcoin?  (Read 2200 times)
Frozenlock
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May 30, 2011, 12:09:43 AM
 #1

No, seriously, why?

This is one of the most elegant system I've ever saw. The more I learn about its inner working, the more I'm in awe.
Yet, I see threads like "Bitcoin will not work, we need to do Bitcoin 2.0."

Those aren't little tweaks, like the future transaction fees, but radical overall changes. Why? How much of Bitcoin do you really know? (Hint: if you know it for less than a week, no, you do not know it!)
This thing is complicated! Have you thought of what would happen if a country get disconnected? How the difficulty would manage to lessen the damage? Have you thought about why you should make a backup of your wallet.dat, but not use multiple instances of it? Why someone with 50% of the network hashing power would still be limited in his ability to steal? Why you can receive money even if you're not connected?

This system is truly a masterpiece.

Have you ever looked at the Internet Protocol (IP) and said "Hmmm, this thing need to be fixed."
How about USB? Have you ever noted that the typical USB socket is almost symmetrical (so I will always put my USB drive the wrong way)?

Why do you want to change Bitcoin so bad?
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bittrader
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May 30, 2011, 12:39:31 AM
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It seems to be a trait of many (most?) people that they think they're experts on subjects which they really don't understand at all.
rezin777
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May 30, 2011, 12:50:10 AM
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I don't understand these people either. They should simply start a block chain with the properties they desire and promote it. If it is truly better, as they suggest, people will drop Bitcoin like a bad habit to flock to the new block chain.

It's like a dude drives a ferrari for the first time and says, "Hey that's a great car, but I can't haul my junk to the recyclers with it."

Then he goes to a ferrari meet up and says, "Hey, don't you think you should modify your cars so they can haul junk to the recyclers?"

And these guys are looking at him like he's nuts. "If I wanted to haul junk around I would have bought a fucking truck!"

Then he goes on to say, "Oh... but you don't understand how useful it would be if you could just haul junk with your ferrari."

These guys still think he's nuts. "Well shit man, hauling junk is going to make my ferrari stinky and slow. I don't even want to haul junk!"

Then he's like, "Well, let's modify your ferrari to haul junk anyway."

And these guys are getting tired. "Dude, just go buy a ferrari and make it haul junk if you want, leave us alone."

Then he's like, "But I don't want to buy a ferrari, I want to change yours!"

And these guys give up and drive away.

Vladimir
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May 30, 2011, 12:57:57 AM
 #4

as Frozenlock and bittrader and rezin said.

I am in a mood to say things rather bluntly today though.

Every noob who comes here and in his first (or his first 100) post claims that the system is fatally flawed and offers us a salvation in form of his blessed expert suggestion on how to fix thing... looks like... Well... how should I put it...

Every such noob comes along as a freaking self-centred ignorant and arrogant idiot with an overinflated ego and IQ which is much less than he thinks it is.

This is not the best way to start in this community. People who consider doing any biz with you in the future will check your posts history, dear noobs, and will see you for who you are (in bold above) and make their decision based on this too.

I wish this thread could be locked and made sticky for noobs, but probably it would fail on political correctness front here.

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Frozenlock
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May 30, 2011, 01:03:22 AM
 #5

Quote
I wish this thread could be locked and made sticky for noobs, but probably it would fail on political correctness front here.
Well thanks for making it un-stickyable!  Wink
Vladimir
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May 30, 2011, 01:11:12 AM
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I wish this thread could be locked and made sticky for noobs, but probably it would fail on political correctness front here.
Well thanks for making it un-stickyable!  Wink

But if it was stickable, there would be no point to stick it! Isn't it a paradox?

We still can link noobs to this thread as a public service, though.

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Anders
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May 30, 2011, 01:23:57 AM
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Have you ever looked at the Internet Protocol (IP) and said "Hmmm, this thing need to be fixed."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPv6  Wink
bittrader
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May 30, 2011, 01:28:05 AM
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I happened to be reading a book where the author quoted Charles Darwin. The quote seems appropriate for this thread:

Quote
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge
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May 30, 2011, 01:30:12 AM
 #9

Have you ever looked at the Internet Protocol (IP) and said "Hmmm, this thing need to be fixed."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPv6  Wink

but m8, the noobs we are talking about do not suggest to make minimal bitcoin with 10 zeros after dot instead of 8 (I am working with you on the analogy here), they do suggest to have every hop in IP route to add 1kb of garbage to every packet.



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May 30, 2011, 01:43:10 AM
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Have you ever looked at the Internet Protocol (IP) and said "Hmmm, this thing need to be fixed."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPv6  Wink

but m8, the noobs we are talking about do not suggest to make minimal bitcoin with 10 zeros after dot instead of 8 (I am working with you on the analogy here), they do suggest to have every hop in IP route to add 1kb of garbage to every packet.


Actually the effective comparison to image the difference between IPv6 and IPv4 would be someone asking to up the transaction ceiling on blocks (sensible suggestion) or increase block resolution per hour (short sighted suggestion). The average single digit post noob's suggestion is more about complaining that the TCP layer or SSL should be scrapped cause they waste bandwidth and serve no purpose or that web sites are bad cause the early website builders will be monopolizing global traffic and capitalize on it unfairly.

btcarmory.com
Anders
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May 30, 2011, 02:32:41 AM
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Have you ever looked at the Internet Protocol (IP) and said "Hmmm, this thing need to be fixed."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPv6  Wink

but m8, the noobs we are talking about do not suggest to make minimal bitcoin with 10 zeros after dot instead of 8 (I am working with you on the analogy here), they do suggest to have every hop in IP route to add 1kb of garbage to every packet.


Ok, with such major changes it would be better to create a competing currency. If someone REALLY can make the Bitcoin system better, then they can create a new currency instead of demanding changes made to Bitcoin. The really cool thing about Bitcoin is that it is a distributed system without the need for some centralized owner to control it. Plus that bitcoins actually have real value in how they are created. A competing currency would have to have at least those qualities I think.
theymos
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May 30, 2011, 02:36:45 AM
 #12

"Elegant" is word that describes the core of Bitcoin well. Maybe a few things could have been done better, but the current system could conceivably work for hundreds of years (with minor tweaks along the way).

1NXYoJ5xU91Jp83XfVMHwwTUyZFK64BoAD
Mike Hearn
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May 30, 2011, 11:36:59 AM
 #13

I don't think we should talk ourselves into a corner where Bitcoin is "unquestionable". There are aspects of its design that might well prove problematic in future. The unprofessional state of the codebase is already causing problems today.

Discussions about how Bitcoin can be improved should be welcomed, even if some of the proposals have come up before or won't work for some reason.
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May 30, 2011, 02:01:28 PM
 #14

I don't think we should talk ourselves into a corner where Bitcoin is "unquestionable".

Well bitcoin is unquestionable, it is defined by maths.   Anyone is free to change it.  However that change will make it into something new; it won't be bitcoin any more.

However, I suspect, the first change that will be increasing the block size.  As that is only enforced by the miners.

One off NP-Hard.
TradersEdgeDice
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May 30, 2011, 02:21:57 PM
 #15

as Frozenlock and bittrader and rezin said.

I am in a mood to say things rather bluntly today though.

Every noob who comes here and in his first (or his first 100) post claims that the system is fatally flawed and offers us a salvation in form of his blessed expert suggestion on how to fix thing... looks like... Well... how should I put it...

Every such noob comes along as a freaking self-centred ignorant and arrogant idiot with an overinflated ego and IQ which is much less than he thinks it is.

This is not the best way to start in this community. People who consider doing any biz with you in the future will check your posts history, dear noobs, and will see you for who you are (in bold above) and make their decision based on this too.

I wish this thread could be locked and made sticky for noobs, but probably it would fail on political correctness front here.


Take it easy, Vlad.  Muscles don't grow without stress.  Not all criticism is bad and sometimes it can lead to pretty cool ideas:

https://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=10538.0;topicseen

I think the community really does need to worry about the centralizing effects of groupthink.

The majority of these critics are like people in traffic.  They're going to wherever they're going and that's all there is to it.  It's momentarily aggravating and then it's over.

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ene
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May 30, 2011, 06:52:24 PM
 #16

Take it easy, Vlad.  Muscles don't grow without stress.  Not all criticism is bad and sometimes it can lead to pretty cool ideas:

https://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=10538.0;topicseen

That's what you call a pretty good idea? That's an awful idea, and even if it were a good idea, it's only been online for a day or two, not enough for us to know for sure that it's a good idea, and if it's a good idea, why is everybody there arguing about it?
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