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ArpFlush (OP)
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May 13, 2015, 12:57:18 PM |
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Hi folks,
I just read an article that using apps on your smartphone takes 20 seconds more time then just use your bank card to pay in a store. I was wondering if there are any developers that are working on a hardware wallet with smartcard with exact the same size of a bank card that could be used in a ATM or terminal at the store. So no USB wallets.
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"Panic Selling is not an Investment Strategy"
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R2D221
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May 13, 2015, 01:17:02 PM |
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The only one I can think about is Coinkite. They have both a Bitcoin debit card, and its corresponding POS terminal to use it. No ATMs though.
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An economy based on endless growth is unsustainable.
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ArpFlush (OP)
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May 13, 2015, 01:22:56 PM |
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The only one I can think about is Coinkite. They have both a Bitcoin debit card, and its corresponding POS terminal to use it. No ATMs though.
Hm, yes, but it's not a bitcoin (hardware) wallet. |
"Panic Selling is not an Investment Strategy"
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JarvisTechnology
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May 13, 2015, 01:24:07 PM |
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Doesn't Xapo provide a bitcoin debit card?
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ArpFlush (OP)
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May 13, 2015, 01:31:02 PM |
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Doesn't Xapo provide a bitcoin debit card?
Maybe, but I'm not refering to debit cards. Just pure BTC hardware wallets shaped as a debit card. Like ledger wallet but this wallet has USB. |
"Panic Selling is not an Investment Strategy"
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R2D221
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May 13, 2015, 01:51:54 PM |
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The only one I can think about is Coinkite. They have both a Bitcoin debit card, and its corresponding POS terminal to use it. No ATMs though.
Hm, yes, but it's not a bitcoin (hardware) wallet. Yeah, you're right. Maybe we can propose them to create one? |
An economy based on endless growth is unsustainable.
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Amph
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May 13, 2015, 01:54:23 PM |
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Doesn't Xapo provide a bitcoin debit card?
Maybe, but I'm not refering to debit cards. Just pure BTC hardware wallets shaped as a debit card. Like ledger wallet but this wallet has USB. basically a debit card that could issue transactions? it would be cool if it would exist, but i don't think there is such a thing yet |
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NeuroticFish
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May 13, 2015, 02:07:46 PM |
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Hi folks,
I just read an article that using apps on your smartphone takes 20 seconds more time then just use your bank card to pay in a store. I was wondering if there are any developers that are working on a hardware wallet with smartcard with exact the same size of a bank card that could be used in a ATM or terminal at the store. So no USB wallets.
If you want to make a transfer / payment, you need your wallet's internet access, your private key and - for your safety - your password. Now, if you make it just like a bank card, normal stores will not accept it - they need old style money - and for the new way, I am not sure how you want it to work. The best solution I can think of would mean that the hardware wallet maker will also make some.. "tool" for merchants to contact your wallet and ask for transfer. It could be costly, but it could add more trust to the transaction. And after all, most of the time is spent waiting for the network to acknowledge the transactions, maybe even give one confirmation. And this cannot be improved imho. Just imagine that somebody else, having your private key, will initiate on your signal a double spend (yeah, it's not that easy, still, for the sake of theory...). If the merchant doesn't spend that time with you, it may get burnt. However, the idea may worth more thinking because for small / normal amounts a double spend may just not worth the hassle. |
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ArpFlush (OP)
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May 13, 2015, 02:32:47 PM |
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If you want to make a transfer / payment, you need your wallet's internet access, your private key and - for your safety - your password.
Now, if you make it just like a bank card, normal stores will not accept it - they need old style money - and for the new way, I am not sure how you want it to work. The best solution I can think of would mean that the hardware wallet maker will also make some.. "tool" for merchants to contact your wallet and ask for transfer. It could be costly, but it could add more trust to the transaction.
And after all, most of the time is spent waiting for the network to acknowledge the transactions, maybe even give one confirmation. And this cannot be improved imho.
Just imagine that somebody else, having your private key, will initiate on your signal a double spend (yeah, it's not that easy, still, for the sake of theory...). If the merchant doesn't spend that time with you, it may get burnt.
However, the idea may worth more thinking because for small / normal amounts a double spend may just not worth the hassle.
Some good points here. I suppose a dedicated BTC terminal would be necessary and yes, there's the confirmation problem but if someone finds a solution to that we don't need apps anymore to pay in bitcoin. There are too many apps for too many payment options. Think of all the banks with their own app, then paypal, all sorts of btc wallet apps. I think people need something "hardware". |
"Panic Selling is not an Investment Strategy"
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R2D221
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May 13, 2015, 02:43:05 PM |
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There's NOT the confirmation problem, at least not when you're buying a cup of coffee or the groceries.
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An economy based on endless growth is unsustainable.
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NeuroticFish
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May 13, 2015, 02:46:12 PM |
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Some good points here. I suppose a dedicated BTC terminal would be necessary and yes, there's the confirmation problem but if someone finds a solution to that we don't need apps anymore to pay in bitcoin.
There are too many apps for too many payment options. Think of all the banks with their own app, then paypal, all sorts of btc wallet apps. I think people need something "hardware".
Thank you. Maybe, just maybe, someday the block time will decrease. That will help a lot. Or, an idea that came out now would be that the company / companies that'll make this hardware wallet and the "reader" at merchants would do something more: offering some sort of insurance against theft / double spend. After the hardware wallet and the reader acknowledge that they'd started the transaction and sent it to the blockchain, all it's done. No waiting for something extra. But yeah, insurance and protection against hacks ("customization") of the hardware wallet ... quite big words yet. There's NOT the confirmation problem, at least not when you're buying a cup of coffee or the groceries.
Maybe the 5$ doesn't worth stealing, but if this is implemented, maybe you'll want to pay for your watch or your car with your wallet, you know... Also, if this is not a problem, what is the actual problem? I think that the merchant needs some acknowledge that the transaction happened and that takes time. Or just starting the software, reading the QR and typing the amount and pwd takes that much?! |
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RustyNomad
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May 13, 2015, 02:50:29 PM |
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Maybe something like Case - http://choosecase.comA hardware wallet with good security and you do not need a computer and or a phone. |
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R2D221
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May 13, 2015, 02:51:29 PM |
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I think a solution for this should be something very similar to what Coinkite is already doing. Just, instead of the POS connecting to their central servers and request a payment, make all the cryptography happen on the POS itself, and just propagate the signed transaction.
It might lead to centralization, but if done correctly, the POS protocol would be made open source, so that any company can develop their Bitcoin POS and cards, compatible with each other.
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An economy based on endless growth is unsustainable.
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Elwar
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May 13, 2015, 03:08:03 PM |
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I was thinking of this. I saw a cop talking about skimmers where someone can get your card info and then program a card with another device to have all of that information.
What if such a programming device was small enough to fit in your pocket and bluetooth enabled. When you want to pay for something you send bitcoins to a site that charges a card with that exact amount and then sends that card's data directly to your card device. You pull it out and pay for whatever. Then you put the card back in and it zeros out the card info.
Bonus if the device was card sized and fit into slots.
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First seastead company actually selling sea homes: Ocean Builders https://ocean.builders Of course we accept bitcoin. |
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R2D221
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May 13, 2015, 03:30:43 PM |
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There's NOT the confirmation problem, at least not when you're buying a cup of coffee or the groceries.
Maybe the 5$ doesn't worth stealing, but if this is implemented, maybe you'll want to pay for your watch or your car with your wallet, you know... Also, if this is not a problem, what is the actual problem? I think that the merchant needs some acknowledge that the transaction happened and that takes time. Or just starting the software, reading the QR and typing the amount and pwd takes that much?! If you're buying a car, the paperwork takes more than 10 minutes anyway. Also, if in my proposed solution, the POS itself broadcasts the transaction, then it can be safer to assume it is valid and just accept it. |
An economy based on endless growth is unsustainable.
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Ludi
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May 13, 2015, 03:38:48 PM |
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The only one I can think about is Coinkite. They have both a Bitcoin debit card, and its corresponding POS terminal to use it. No ATMs though.
Hm, yes, but it's not a bitcoin (hardware) wallet. So you want some sort of bitcoin debit card that spends funds directly from your hardware wallet? I'm not sure how this would work safely as it seems like a weak point for your hardware wallet. There are plenty of options for bitcoin debit cards though. I believe with bit-x you can spend funds directly from your bit-x account. |
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BitcoinNewsMagazine
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May 13, 2015, 03:53:25 PM |
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With Bit-X or Xapo you spend funds directly from your wallet bitcoin balance. www.choosecase.com seems closest to what you are looking for, costs $199 and shipping early summer. |
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NeuroticFish
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May 13, 2015, 06:39:34 PM |
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With Bit-X or Xapo you spend funds directly from your wallet bitcoin balance. www.choosecase.com seems closest to what you are looking for, costs $199 and shipping early summer. Yes, but that means conversion to fiat, which the OP wants to avoid. Bitcoin aims to be a currency after all. ...
If you're buying a car, the paperwork takes more than 10 minutes anyway. Also, if in my proposed solution, the POS itself broadcasts the transaction, then it can be safer to assume it is valid and just accept it.
You're right, but the same solution has to work in all the cases if you want wider adoption. Or at least that was what I was thinking. Now.. your idea has some flaws, for which a solution has to be found. If I understood right your post and Elwar's, especially after making the source code public, you will just make a nice present to a few smarter thieves. So there we have either a big centralization, either public source and rather easy means for theft. The idea needs improved... |
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