Clear abuse of DefaultTrust by Vod [RESOLVED]

[CrazyJoker]

Who am I ?

I am running a Social Gambling Game called CrazyPonzi.com. Here is the thread - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=926237.0.


Ponzi ? So you are a Scammer...

No. I am tired of explaining the same to every new player. The explanation is given below in the PM I sent to Vod. Probably, I made a mistake by chosing the domain name, but the game is designed in a way, so that running away with the bankroll wont be economical to me.


What happened ?

Yesterday, I found Vod has left me a -ve trust. There was no PM or any other communication from his end. In the reference he provided the thread link of a game I am running for over months without any complaint of cheating. I sent him a PM, but did not receive any response, though it seems he was active after receiving the PM. So, I assume, he is avoiding me and does not want to reason his feedback. My PM content is given below...

Hi... I just checked that you left me a -ve feedback. I understand the kind of scam that takes place in the Investment Based Games section makes one think everyone is a scammer. Rather than blatantly claiming that I am NOT a SCAMMER, I'd like to point out to a few things...

1. I am running this thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=926237.0) since January 15, 2015 and before the current game, there were 2 games on CrazyPonzi.com. Everyone was paid as per game logic and there was no complaint against me.

2. Now let me explain the current game logic and why cheating is not economical to me...

The basic principle of CrazyPonzi.com is fundamentally different from its predecessors like WeeklyPonzi.com or NextPonzi.com. All those games were based on classic Ponzi principle, where old players are paid out of new player's investment. But, at CrazyPonzi.com new players may also get paid by old players. How ? Because every investment/bet, whatever you call it, will get expired within 120 hour. So, if one investment/bet get 140% of its value within 120 hour, it will be paid off. Otherwise, it will expire and add up to the bankroll to pay the next investment/bet. In this process, bankroll itself is self-adjusting and hence never goes up. On the other hand, operator gets paid a commission whenever someone gets paid. This is how operator makes more from commission than he could make by stealing the bankroll. This was not the case for WeeklyPonzi.com, NextPonzi.com or its similar variants that run today. Hence running away with the bankroll is simply not economical for the operator of CrazyPonzi.com.

p.s. You should note that this is NOT an investment program anyway. This is gambling. I like to call it Social Gambling.

3. The only other game like CrazyPonzi.com that exists today is Nine9.ninja - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=954695.0. You'll find this user have not cheated either instead of dealing with 400+ BTC.

So, may I request you to re-consider your feedback ? Please let me know if you want me to post the above for any public discussion...


Thanking You,
CrazyJoker

Why is it in Meta ? Trust is NOT moderated on BitcoinTalk...

I know. There are three other untrusted -ve feedbacks on me as well for the same reason, i.e. running CrazyPonzi.com, NOT scamming anyone. I did NOT create a thread for them, becasue they are NOT blessed by DefaultTrust. Vod is blessed by two people (dooglus & TomatoCage) on DefaultTrust and DefaultTrust is a moderated one. Hence I have created this thread in Meta.


So what action are you taking ?

I am not in a position to take any direct action. I tried to create an honest game in the wild west of Investment Based Games section. It took around one and a half month to code CrazyPonzi.com. 28+ BTC was received and returned, while 100+ players joined the game. Now, this irresponsible feedback from a person who does not have the slightest hint of what is going on is unexpected. I'll send this thread link to dooglus & TomatoCage and expect their input. I hope Vod will be rational and adjust his feedback accordingly.

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[Vod]

I am not in a position to take any direct action. I tried to create an honest game in the wild west of Investment Based Games section.

Question:  How does one create an honest ponzi?  Your intention is to steal as much as you can from as many people as you can.   

[dogie]

Ponzi ? So you are a Scammer...

No. I am tired of explaining the same to every new player. The explanation is given below in the PM I sent to Vod. Probably, I made a mistake by chosing the domain name, but the game is designed in a way, so that running away with the bankroll wont be economical to me.

If you have to explain that you're not a scam to your average customer, you should consider a rebrand.

[CrazyJoker]

I am not in a position to take any direct action. I tried to create an honest game in the wild west of Investment Based Games section.

Question:  How does one create an honest ponzi?  Your intention is to steal as much as you can from as many people as you can.   

Please read the PM or the thread above and you'll find how this game works. The Ponzi schemes you are referring always pay old investors from new investor's deposit. This is NOT the case here. New investors can be paid by old investors as every deposit gets 120 hour to expire. In legacy Ponzi games bankroll just goes up and at a certain point owner just take it and run away. This is NOT the case here. Bankroll goes up & down and it is never more than the commission that I make from winners.

[CrazyJoker]

Ponzi ? So you are a Scammer...

No. I am tired of explaining the same to every new player. The explanation is given below in the PM I sent to Vod. Probably, I made a mistake by chosing the domain name, but the game is designed in a way, so that running away with the bankroll wont be economical to me.

If you have to explain that you're not a scam to your average customer, you should consider a rebrand.

In fact, I was thinking about that after witnessing the interest of people. Changing the domain name keeping the game untouched is NOT a big problem. But, Vod is simply NOT interested to take any logic !!! I have already explained how the game operates in the first post, whereas he is asking the same Q in the second post !!!

[Zeroxal]

I am not in a position to take any direct action. I tried to create an honest game in the wild west of Investment Based Games section.

Question:  How does one create an honest ponzi?  Your intention is to steal as much as you can from as many people as you can.   

Please read the PM or the thread above and you'll find how this game works. The Ponzi schemes you are referring always pay old investors from new investor's deposit. This is NOT the case here. New investors can be paid by old investors as every deposit gets 120 hour to expire. In legacy Ponzi games bankroll just goes up and at a certain point owner just take it and run away. This is NOT the case here. Bankroll goes up & down and it is never more than the commission that I make from winners.

I assume everbody here knows how a ponzi works. There has been many issues with them in the past. The owners just escaped with the profit when they had enough. It isnt about the people that didnt and did get money out of it. It is just the new investors that invested wont be able to get the money because of the owner that shut the website down.
Yes, it actually pays you money, but that wont last for ever and it will be a scam the day or another as the owner doesnt want to manage it anymore

So creating a ponzi isnt a good idea because it is a 100% scam, like a time bomb that will explode after some time. Every ponzi runner gets neg trust, and Vod does it so that other people dont fall into the scam.

I suggest you to close the ponzi asap before big problems appear

[OrangeSeller]

No need to cry about the red trust, you won't use that account anymore after you scam your investor with the ponzi

[Vod]

Every ponzi runner gets neg trust, and Vod does it so that other people dont fall into the scam.

Exactly, I don't do it to piss people off, I do it to protect newbies who may believe the OP's words that his ponzi is different and he is not in a position to steal coins.

I didn't need to write your code to know how you would scam.  During a period of heavy deposits, a "hack" would occur that would stop all withdrawals.  You would disappear with as many coins as you could.   

I'd have more compassion for you if you weren't operating on a throw away account.

[Quickseller]

Every ponzi runner gets neg trust, and Vod does it so that other people dont fall into the scam.

Exactly, I don't do it to piss people off, I do it to protect newbies who may believe the OP's words that his ponzi is different and he is not in a position to steal coins.

I didn't need to write your code to know how you would scam.  During a period of heavy deposits, a "hack" would occur that would stop all withdrawals.  You would disappear with as many coins as you could.   

I'd have more compassion for you if you weren't operating on a throw away account.

Couldn't you say the same thing about any casino?

It looks like their thread is in games and rounds (and not the ponzi section).

I came across their thread a few times and didn't give them negative trust.

[CrazyJoker]

Every ponzi runner gets neg trust, and Vod does it so that other people dont fall into the scam.

Exactly, I don't do it to piss people off, I do it to protect newbies who may believe the OP's words that his ponzi is different and he is not in a position to steal coins.

I didn't need to write your code to know how you would scam.  During a period of heavy deposits, a "hack" would occur that would stop all withdrawals.  You would disappear with as many coins as you could.   

I'd have more compassion for you if you weren't operating on a throw away account.

Couldn't you say the same thing about any casino?

It looks like their thread is in games and rounds (and not the ponzi section).

I came across their thread a few times and didn't give them negative trust.

Our main thread was moved from Gambling to Investor Based Games section, while that section was created: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=926237.0

We have a Giveaway thread in Games and Rounds: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1039772.0

[Vod]

I came across their thread a few times and didn't give them negative trust.

Is that the new standard of trust now?  

I hadn't even dealt with his PM yet.  Now that he has stated I'm "clearly abusing" my position in DefaultTrust, that I'm irresponsible, unreasonable and illogical, I'm not making it my priority over sleep.  OP has no patience.  

I'll look at it again in my morning.  If the OP wants to be more realistic with his site, and clearly list the risks associated with his game (he doesn't even state you can lose coins!) then I can reconsider my trust.  

[MarbleBoss]

I am not in a position to take any direct action. I tried to create an honest game in the wild west of Investment Based Games section.

Question:  How does one create an honest ponzi?  Your intention is to steal as much as you can from as many people as you can.   

Where goes this logic for Nine9.ninja - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=954695.0 ?

[Quickseller]

I came across their thread a few times and didn't give them negative trust.

Is that the new standard of trust now?  

No. I am just pointing out that I previously looked into them and didn't think they would be a scam.

From the looks of it they chose their name poorly however I don't think they are the same as other ponzis as the rounds are scheduled to end at a certain time so you need to have enough people invested after you in order for you to not lose.

Although thinking about it a little bit, this does sound a little but like weekly ponzi which was run by scammer James Volpe aka TheGambler aka moreia so maybe it should be looked into to see if the OP,  is an alt of him. Otherwise they are really no different then any other Bitcoin casino but with a somewhat non traditional name.

[CrazyJoker]

I came across their thread a few times and didn't give them negative trust.

Is that the new standard of trust now?  

I hadn't even dealt with his PM yet.  Now that he has stated I'm "clearly abusing" my position in DefaultTrust, that I'm irresponsible, unreasonable and illogical, I'm not making it my priority over sleep.  OP has no patience.  

I'll look at it again in my morning.  If the OP wants to be more realistic with his site, and clearly list the risks associated with his game (he doesn't even state you can lose coins!) then I can reconsider my trust.  

I was not in the accusation mode while I sent you the PM. I just noted your post count after sending the PM. This was your last post then => https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1059939.msg11369539#msg11369539. When I saw, you made a LOT of posts after this, but did NOT reply to me, I created this post.

The site clearly mentions that it is A bitcoin gambling game. What else I can mention to make people aware that they can lose their coins ?  Still, if you have any suggestion... please do mention them. I have absolutely no problem in making people aware that they are gambling and the 140% return is NOT guaranteed.

[Vod]

I was not in the accusation mode while I sent you the PM. I just noted your post count after sending the PM. This was your last post then => https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1059939.msg11369539#msg11369539. When I saw, you made a LOT of posts after this, but did NOT reply to me, I created this post.

The site clearly mentions that it is A bitcoin gambling game. What else I can mention to make people aware that they can lose their coins ?

Sometimes when I am in the middle of something and the "new personal message" notification comes up, I ignore it to continue what I'm doing, and return to it later.

[shorena]

I am not in a position to take any direct action. I tried to create an honest game in the wild west of Investment Based Games section.

Question:  How does one create an honest ponzi?  Your intention is to steal as much as you can from as many people as you can.  

Please read the PM or the thread above and you'll find how this game works. The Ponzi schemes you are referring always pay old investors from new investor's deposit. This is NOT the case here. New investors can be paid by old investors as every deposit gets 120 hour to expire. In legacy Ponzi games bankroll just goes up and at a certain point owner just take it and run away. This is NOT the case here. Bankroll goes up & down and it is never more than the commission that I make from winners.

I did. All I see are your claims. Lets pick them apart, shall we? Maybe you can answer my questions.

The basic principle of CrazyPonzi.com is fundamentally different from its predecessors like WeeklyPonzi.com or NextPonzi.com. All those games were based on classic Ponzi principle, where old players are paid out of new player's investment. But, at CrazyPonzi.com new players may also get paid by old players. How ? Because every investment/bet, whatever you call it, will get expired within 120 hour. So, if one investment/bet get 140% of its value within 120 hour, it will be paid off. Otherwise, it will expire and add up to the bankroll to pay the next investment/bet.

Lets pause here for a second. The difference as I understand it is, while a regular ponzi starts a new round after X time and whatever is left goes to the operator in your case it goes to "the bankroll". I assume you as the operator control the bankroll. The only difference I see is that you removed rounds from the game. The fundamental concept is still the same.

In this process, bankroll itself is self-adjusting and hence never goes up. On the other hand, operator gets paid a commission whenever someone gets paid. This is how operator makes more from commission than he could make by stealing the bankroll. This was not the case for WeeklyPonzi.com, NextPonzi.com or its similar variants that run today. Hence running away with the bankroll is simply not economical for the operator of CrazyPonzi.com.

Running with the bankroll may be not, but what about faking participants? Firstly I find it troubling that you seem to have no blockchain evidence. Is there none? Is every entrance in the table, there because you say so?

Lets look at some examples from your site.

Code:

127 	kahnur	0.005		0.007		Expired	00:00:00
126 	Shikaku	0.0078876	0.01104264	Paid	00:00:00
125 	haha	0.0141876	0.01986264	Expired	00:00:00
124 	Schemer	0.1	        0.14		Expired	00:00:00
123 	FIALKA	0.01		0.014		Expired	00:00:00
122 	yazx	0.0026		0.00364		Expired	00:00:00
121 	mrfizzy	0.00126		0.001764	Paid	00:00:00

Why was #125 not paid from the bankroll provided by the expired "investments" from #122 #124. If the only indicator to pay out is another "investment" after me, the bankroll can certainly increase to any amount and your statement from above is wrong.

-snip-
Sometimes when I am in the middle of something and the "new personal message" notification comes up, I ignore it to continue what I'm doing, and return to it later.

Thats sooo rude of you Vod, why do you have other things to do with your life but the react to a PM?


Edit: typos, grammar

[CrazyJoker]

I was not in the accusation mode while I sent you the PM. I just noted your post count after sending the PM. This was your last post then => https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1059939.msg11369539#msg11369539. When I saw, you made a LOT of posts after this, but did NOT reply to me, I created this post.

The site clearly mentions that it is A bitcoin gambling game. What else I can mention to make people aware that they can lose their coins ?

Sometimes when I am in the middle of something and the "new personal message" notification comes up, I ignore it to continue what I'm doing, and return to it later.

Now, it is NOT possible for me to know, how you handle "new personal message". I saw you are posting elswhere for hours and NOT responding to me. So, I assumed you are avoiding me.

Please note that, I have updated the previous post. If you have any suggestion... please do mention them. I have absolutely no problem in making people aware that they are gambling and the 140% return is NOT guaranteed. I would like CrazyPonzi.com to be treated as a Gambling game, NOT an Investment Based Game, where every new player joins with a doubt that I have some hidden plan to run away with their fund.

[shorena]

I was not in the accusation mode while I sent you the PM. I just noted your post count after sending the PM. This was your last post then => https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1059939.msg11369539#msg11369539. When I saw, you made a LOT of posts after this, but did NOT reply to me, I created this post.

The site clearly mentions that it is A bitcoin gambling game. What else I can mention to make people aware that they can lose their coins ?

Sometimes when I am in the middle of something and the "new personal message" notification comes up, I ignore it to continue what I'm doing, and return to it later.

Now, it is NOT possible for me to know, how you handle "new personal message". I saw you are posting elswhere for hours and NOT responding to me. So, I assumed you are avoiding me.

Please note that, I have updated the previous post. If you have any suggestion... please do mention them. I have absolutely no problem in making people aware that they are gambling and the 140% return is NOT guaranteed. I would like CrazyPonzi.com to be treated as a Gambling game, NOT an Investment Based Game, where every new player joins with a doubt that I have some hidden plan to run away with their fund.

If you want it to be treated like a gambling game, do what other gambling games do. Make it provably fair.

[Vod]

If you want it to be threated like a gambling game, do what other gambling games do. Make it provably fair.

OP - I believe your path is laid out for you.  Good luck!

[CrazyJoker]

@shorena & @Vod I need to go out for now. Will be back and respond to both of you.