[2015-05-15] Xapo Moves to Switzerland Citing Customer Privacy Concerns

[Grand_Voyageur]

Xapo Moves to Switzerland Citing Customer Privacy Concerns

Xapo has officially relocated its corporate headquarters to Zurich, Switzerland, citing the country's long history of neutrality and stability.

The bitcoin services and security firm said the transition was put in motion three months ago at the request of customers, and that now, Xapo's operations in Palo Alto are in the process of being reduced. As part of the transition, Xapo will hire new finance and legal staff in the central European nation while still keeping a small US presence.

In interview, Xapo CEO Wences Casares sought to position the move as one that would appeal to customers who remain worried about oversight of their bitcoin holdings and transactions.

Full story: http://www.coindesk.com/xapo-switzerland-privacy-concerns/
Official Xapo Service Discussion thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=902526.0

[medUSA]

I have heard about Xapo has underground "vaults" and 24/7 armed guards and video surveillance to protect their coins. I have always thought it was a marketing move. Now that Xapo is moving it's California headquarters to Switzerland because customers requested it, I might start to believe Xapo actually holds A LOT of coins for other institutions. 

There are some customers that will bring more balances if we do this and there are some customers who have said we will work with you if you do this."

It's like a Swiss bank account, wealthy people like to keep it secretly tucked away out of sight and cannot be easily linked back to them. However, is this going to work? Last year, 3 or 4 Swiss banks including Credit Suisse and UBS were fined and forced to hand over names of Americans with secret bank accounts. Would this move from US to Switzerland make much difference?

[Chef Ramsay]

Good questions^. I had thought that these guys were positioned down in South America (Argentina?) but had their vault in some bunker in a Swedish mountain. Now, sounds like they were out of Cali and needing to bolt to Switzerland. They claim that they have the largest bitcoin holdings in the world and I'd like to know if that is true.

[bryant.coleman]

I am not sure whether Switzerland is the right place. In the recent past, the Swiss authorities have collaborated with their American counterparts, giving away bank account  details and other information. This has led to tax evasion charges being filed against thousands of individuals. How can anyone be sure that the same won't happen with Bitcoin accounts?

[Grand_Voyageur]

I have heard about Xapo has underground "vaults" and 24/7 armed guards and video surveillance to protect their coins. I have always thought it was a marketing move. Now that Xapo is moving it's California headquarters to Switzerland because customers requested it, I might start to believe Xapo actually holds A LOT of coins for other institutions. 

There are some customers that will bring more balances if we do this and there are some customers who have said we will work with you if you do this."

It's like a Swiss bank account, wealthy people like to keep it secretly tucked away out of sight and cannot be easily linked back to them. However, is this going to work? Last year, 3 or 4 Swiss banks including Credit Suisse and UBS were fined and forced to hand over names of Americans with secret bank accounts. Would this move from US to Switzerland make much difference?

Switzerland has scores of plus to be chosen as a safe BTC-storage dump due to country neutrality, internal stability and banking secrecy & privacy law (even if actually only a watered down version of the original one). Also in last decades, after the end of Cold War, Swiss Govt dismissed & sold scores of blast & fallout bunkers to private citizens and organisations, some were even turned into hotels, so you've also scores of suitable place to secure store the BTC Xapo customers entrusted into the company.

Good questions^. I had thought that these guys were positioned down in South America (Argentina?) but had their vault in some bunker in a Swedish mountain. Now, sounds like they were out of Cali and needing to bolt to Switzerland. They claim that they have the largest bitcoin holdings in the world and I'd like to know if that is true.

I am not sure whether Switzerland is the right place. In the recent past, the Swiss authorities have collaborated with their American counterparts, giving away bank account  details and other information. This has led to tax evasion charges being filed against thousands of individuals. How can anyone be sure that the same won't happen with Bitcoin accounts?

Switzerland probably still look safer & more friendly to Xapo's eyes. It took a lot of years to US authority partially have the data of US persons owning bank accounts on Swiss soil, I'm not sure a South American government and society stable enough to allow comparaison with the Swiss one could last any longer against US Govt pressure. By the while, fortune.com wrote a follow-on piece on the subject; here.

[shawshankinmate37927]

Unfortunately, I think it will become commonplace for American individuals and companies that want to use Bitcoin to locate elsewhere to escape the regulatory burdens.  The polticians and bankers here simply are not interested in the type of freedom and privacy that Bitcoin allows.  I think we'll see other jurisditions laying out the welcome mat for them in hopes of becoming a thriving center of financial services and activity in the future.

As others have already indicated, I'm not sure Switzerland will be one of those places based on their past capitulation to the demands of the USA.

[unamis76]

This is quite irrelevant, in my humble opinion. They're not more trustworthy by just changing their main offices... And Switzerland is not the safe haven it used to be. If people remember, banking data has been leaking out of there recently...

[Kprawn]

Like the Protonmail based in Switzerland.  ---> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ProtonMail

It seems as though they not bending the knee to the EU and the US {N$A} BUT it cannot be verified.

http://techcrunch.com/2014/06/23/protonmail-is-a-swiss-secure-mail-provider-that-wont-give-you-up-to-the-nsa/

" according to the Swiss Federal Act on the Surveillance of Postal and Telecommunications Traffic (SPTT), the company cannot be compelled to expose their system to any government authority. "

[bryant.coleman]

This is quite irrelevant, in my humble opinion. They're not more trustworthy by just changing their main offices... And Switzerland is not the safe haven it used to be. If people remember, banking data has been leaking out of there recently...

Some of the Swiss banks were stupid enough to use Filipino and Indian call centers for some of their operations. And that's where the leaks originated from. And some of the data were stolen by hackers, and later resold to third party individuals. But we should also remember that the Swiss also collaborated with the US authorities a few years ago, giving out the details on their own.

[medUSA]

Switzerland probably still look safer & more friendly to Xapo's eyes.
<snip>
By the while, fortune.com wrote a follow-on piece on the subject; here.

Thanks for the link. Now I understand the difference in level of privacy between US and Switzerland:

Switzerland’s Federal Act on Banks and Savings Banks (known as the Banking Law of 1934)... Under that law, it is a criminal act for banks to reveal an account holder’s identity.

By law, US banks are required to file reports for any transaction over $10,000, including the account holder’s name, account number, address, and Social Security number.

$10,000 is roughly about 40 btc, Xapo clients moving more than 40 btc could be reported to the government. So, even Switzerland had disclosed account holders with the US Gov before, it is still way better privacy in Switzerland than in US soil.

[bryant.coleman]

Switzerland probably still look safer & more friendly to Xapo's eyes. It took a lot of years to US authority partially have the data of US persons owning bank accounts on Swiss soil, I'm not sure a South American government and society stable enough to allow comparaison with the Swiss one could last any longer against US Govt pressure. By the while, fortune.com wrote a follow-on piece on the subject; here.

Hmm.. I think it is about choosing the lesser evil. The American citizens are running out of options to secure their wealth. Switzerland looks somewhat attractive. Still, I don't know whether the status quo will prevail in Switzerland for a considerable amount of time in the future. The bankers are tightening their claws everywhere.

[manicminer]

https://xapo.com/terms/

You and Xapo further agree: (a) to attempt informal resolution prior to any demand for arbitration; (b) that any arbitration will occur in New York, New York; (c) that arbitration will be conducted confidentially by a single arbitrator in accordance with the rules of JAMS; and (d) that the courts in New York, New York have exclusive jurisdiction over any appeals of an arbitration award and over any suit between the parties not subject to arbitration.

This move to Switzerland was kind of half-assed.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=902526.msg13019137#msg13019137

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=902526.msg13055722#msg13055722

Bad to non-existent customer service.

Also, no one cared to review them on premier review site http://bittrust.org/xapo

[BellaBitBit]

Interesting news.  I am wondering if this will spread through silicon valley.  Bitcoin and cryptos are unstoppable and it makes sense to keep forging ahead and get out of areas with regulations that impeded this process.

 It says they started this process three months ago, what..if anything does this have to do with Xapo CEO Wences Casares getting a board position at Paypal??