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Author Topic: An Honest Introduction to Money  (Read 6513 times)
BobK71 (OP)
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May 17, 2015, 02:02:17 AM
Last edit: May 17, 2015, 02:30:09 AM by BobK71
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I welcome any comments about this essay, including challenging ones.  To make it readable, I've had to make assertions, which may or may not seem justified or adequately explained.

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What Is Money?

Money is an agreed standard of value.  Any economy that has advanced beyond bartering must use money.

The acceptance of any money requires faith.  In the religious war among monies, partisans are eager to point out the faith-based nature of opponents' monies, while forgetting this basic fact.  The intrinsic values of monies rarely, if ever, justify their monetary values.

(National currencies naturally start with the most faith, but for this very reason, they are also the most abused over time.  Exactly how they will perform, thus, becomes fundamentally uncertain.  Ordinary citizens are basically gambling with their savings, no matter what they do.)

Money's Evolution

It seems, money really grows on trees.  I.E. wherever there are thinking humans, there is money.  Shells, tobacco, laundry detergent have all been used.  Gold and silver have emerged through the millennia as dominant forms of money in important parts of the world, due to their physical properties.

Modern Western money started as physical precious metals, evolved into paper which was supported by the various, progressively weaker versions of metallic standards, to fiat paper.  Central bank fiat policy also evolved from "inflation-targeting" to "dual-targeting."  (The other target is employment.)

Each step along the way, savers were expropriated by a combination of inflation, broken promises (e.g. central banks' undying commitment to gold at a fixed price,) and financial instability.  For some reason, at each step, the promises of the last step were always found to be impossible to keep, in the end.

Throughout this period, the state has grown more powerful, while financial crises always seem to recur.  Commonly accepted logic justifies the expanding role of governments and central banks as needed to contain crises, while forgetting that state-supported financial asset expansion has been the root cause of every crisis.  (The conventional logic never seems to be challenged by the economics profession.)

Money's Role in the Rule by Elites

The core modern social structure is a grand alliance between the political and financial elites.  Each group receives most of its power and wealth by issuing money and debt out of thin air, while confidence lasts.  While the political class contributes state power to prop up the values of the money and debt issued by both groups, the financial elite contribute innovative ideas by dreaming up new assets the public might believe in, if temporarily.

Bank assets provides extra demand for the money and debt issued by the state, and actually protect them from market forces, if bank assets crash.  It's for this service that banks receive a share of the benefits of state power, in the form of taxpayer-funded bailouts and loose regulation (given the guarantees of their debt by the state.)

The central bank is the institutional cornerstone this partnership.  Its real function is to keep the partnership alive by keeping both sides honest.  (I.E. "honest" only to each other under the terms of the partnership, for example, by refraining from issuing too much money or debt and endangering the system as a whole.)  If it never seems clear whether the central bank is public or private, this is basically why.

The chief device for extracting wealth from the rest of society is issuing money and debt, free of cost, while the public still trust in their values, to benefit members of the elites quite personally.  The consequences of inflation and financial instability are borne by the economy at large.

At this point I should mention an important point: the various gold standards have actually been another device for propping up the values of state and bank issued money and debt.  Compared to fiat money, they did slow down monetary expansion, but the basic nature of the system was no different.  (The central issue is that the state is involved in money, specifically in artificially propping up the money it issues.)  What this means is that modern monetary pollution didn't start with the demise of the gold standard, but with the founding of the Dutch and English central banks much earlier.

Why Hasn't Paper Money Imploded?

A big part of the story is the modern human capacity for economic growth, made clear by the Italian Renaissance (during which money was still precious metals.)  More and better products and services give value to money and debt, which are really just claims to real wealth.  (More and more, however, this scenario should be taken with a grain of salt.  As monetary pollution progresses, exponentially growing forces come from all hidden corners of the system to impede economic growth.  This point was basically made by John Maynard Keynes himself, before he became part of the establishment.)

Another fundamental support system for inflated money is the political and military power of the state that issues it.  It's no accident that the most inflated monies came from the Roman Empire, the 17th-century Dutch Empire, the British Empire, and later the USA.  These monies were inflated most because their issuers could.  One way or another, a strong state has the means to make peoples of the world "believe" in the value of their paper.  This can take the form of acquiring colonies which happen to desire to hold reserves in paper sterling, or allying with oil-rich dictatorships which happen to demand dollars for oil, and to store their national savings in dollars.  (More on these topics under "International Money.")

The failure of the decades-old, IMF issued Special Drawing Rights to gain traction as a global reserve currency is a counter-example of the above.  The SDR has no strong backing from any state, and doesn't clearly and directly benefit any state.  Unlike gold, bitcoin, etc., there's no natural limit to the supply of SDRs either.  Thus, there is no reason investors or central banks should have confidence in the SDR in its own right.

Finally, the ability of the imperial system to distribute the benefits of monetary issuance widely (if unevenly) give many people a vested interest in the survival of the system.  Every citizen of the imperial power (and its close allies) benefits from the over-valuation of currency.  The professional class in these countries, including economists, benefits even more.  These "benefits" come with the cost of inevitable long-term decline of the imperial and allied societies, as both people and institutions naturally grow weak when there is free wealth to bail out irresponsible behavior.  Ultimately, the "benefit" of money issuance acts like an addiction, and few affllicted countries or people have been able to escape from it.

One way or another, this process sustains and breeds a lack of awareness among the populations of democratic countries, which becomes the ultimate green light for monetary and financial manipulation.

International Money

This is where things get really interesting, but also morally problematic in a serious way.

Economists generally agree on a complex and recurring process called the "exorbitant privilege" of reserve currencies, a phrase coined by Valéry Giscard d'Estaing in the 1960s.  Simply put, it shifts most of the economic pain and financial instability caused by financial pollution from the core imperial countries to the rest of the world through a mix of capital flows and policymaking. If you always wondered why democracies tolerated this system, this could ultimately be the biggest reason.  (Just in 2013 we saw a powerful demonstration of one phase of this process.  Just by saying it might "taper" its money-printing program soon, the Federal Reserve stirred up a financial storm in developing countries via sudden capital flight and strengthened the dollar by doing nothing.)  In future I will try to explain this process in more detail.

Conceptually, "exorbitant privilege" is the same process by which top US politicians and banks appropriate power and wealth from the rest of the population, but transplanted to the international stage.  When you can issue paper that people believe has value, at least for now, you have a lot of power.

But here, we are dealing with real economic and social misery, caused by the inability of poor countries to use their price advantage to progress economically.  And this misery is imposed by the imperial system.  We can't condone terrorism, but we can see here a good part of how it might have developed, from an objective point of view.

(The elites in the developing world generally work with the system by doling out even worse financial pollution to their populations and benefiting from it -- and this is actually part of why "exorbitant privilege" works.  But there have been rare exceptions.  Early 19th century China trusted only physical silver and wouldn't accept any other money from its trade with Britain.  It simultaneously imposed trade barriers, in an attempt to insulate itself from economic instability originating from British financial pollution.  The result was an outflow of precious metals from Britain that must have endangered its leveraged monetary system.  The other result was the British-launched Opium War that eventually brought China to its knees.)

Many processes work to ensure that the imperial monetary power eventually declines.  You could say corrosion and decline comes from the very nature of the system.  The Dutch endured economic hardship when their debt-money bubble finally burst.  British economic pain would have been even worse in the mid-20th century if it had not been for the help from its hand-picked successor, the USA.  It's hard to see any bright long-term future for the USA.

History seems to show that, when there is global monetary hegemony, the "top dog" will be, at least initially, a genuinely strong and enlightened country with liberal economic values (where "liberal" is not as used in American politics.)  This is easy to understand: if you want global investors to trust the money and debt you issue, you have to refrain from obvious financial repression.  Crucially, this also means that, in a post-Rome world, the modern global empire must rely on both "hard" and "soft" power.  And financial pollution is a cancerously growing erosion of soft power.

This also, perhaps, sheds light on why it was the USA, and not Germany that took over from Britain.  It also means the next global hegemon, if there will be one, will probably not be China but India.  It seems, public life and political culture are a big part of the story.


The Role of Money in Economic Activity

There is no question that the world owes its high modern standard of living, in large part, to monetary inflation.  Whether this affluence implies either happiness or fairness is a different question.  (Note: we are not using "fairness" in the sense of equal results for people; we're using it to mean freedom from state intervention at the core of the system to transfer wealth between different groups.)

Monetary inflation, driven at the core by the skillful and powerful hand of the state, both requires and is nourished by constant real economic growth.  All the issued debt and money must be able to buy goods and services at decent prices, or trust in these assets would collapse.  But economic growth dictated by the needs of finance is fundamentally unnatural.  The results include the quick-buck mentality that drives environmental pollution and personal unhappiness.

A big and progressively self-defeating part of this story is inequality.  Financial market distortion that originates from state-sponsored monetary inflation create artificial winners and losers.  More and more economic activity goes to supplying the winners with life's luxuries.  When there is any wind of contraction, the winners pull back spending and throw too many people out of work.  In constant fear of this, the authorities must maintain monetary inflation to stimulate consumption and investment.  But these actions tend to worsen inequality (especially when combined with the "need" to avoid turning monetary inflation into consumer price inflation and exposing the system for all to see,) and the cycle continues.

(A more technical perspective is that capital is mis-priced across the system, ultimately, by state intervention.  The current system is thus the financial equivalent of the socialist economy, where the state, and not the infinitely nuanced price signals around the economy, determines supply and demand.  The problems caused by this market distortion are then used to justify further distortion and even repression, under the general assumption that the authorities have nothing but the good of society in mind.)

Ultimately, the economy can be said to be addicted to state-directed money and debt inflation.  The economics profession is correct to say that abandonment of this core system would cause a lot of immediate economic pain, at this juncture.

Is Modern Money Here to Stay Then?

We should first consider the fundamental condition of the modern system: money, debt, and various other financial assets, which are only claims to real wealth (goods and services,) vastly outstrip the amount of real wealth at current prices.  More tickets have been sold than there are seats in the house.  People have confidence in the values of these assets only because of the various deceptions practiced by the authorities, ranging from driving central banks of the world to hold them as national reserves, to allowing banks to use "innovative" risky assets to soak up the wealth.  (Though one of the latter backfired spectacularly in 2007/2008.)

Any system with deception at its core can't possibly be stable on a long-term basis.  In this case, sooner or later, simple property rights, which is a much older and tested human institution than modern money, will reassert itself.

More specifically, the system suffers from a number of key problems for sustainability.  The more paper wealth the system creates, the more wealth will want to find good homes where it can keep its value, if not grow.  But since the extra wealth is artificial and not driven by real economic growth, this can only destabilize and corrode the system further by driving asset bubbles and their eventual busts.  The system's response to all problems is, predictably, to create more paper claims.  And the cycle continues.

Another key destabilizing factor is the mutual reinforcement between inequality and instability, as mentioned above.  One way or another, the authorities must have inequality.  Inequality is currently the only way most money can stay saved and not drive up inflation and discredit itself.  But so much money in the hands of the few will cause asset bubbles and instability, not to mention political "problems."

Also, artificially high economic growth rates increase the educational levels and awareness of the citizenry.  The system needs this high growth to survive, and yet this very growth will threaten it via growing awareness.
 
In short, the system works towards its own end in multiple ways (as all inherently contradictory systems do.)  And the exponential nature of this system's factors of instability will move things faster nearer the end.  But history is full of unsustainable systems lasting for many lifetimes.  The very reason for manipulation is that it usually succeeds for a while.  Though the end result is not in doubt, its timing is.


What Money Should Be

Since even democracies have no effective way to monitor the sausage-making of money and other core financial assets, the public must demand that the state keep its hands off money completely, and let each money sink or swim in the free market.

Amazingly, this would be the only real change needed.  Other things will take care of themselves.  There will be no more endless arguments about bank regulation, for example, since banks will have to do what is necessary to survive.  (The Scottish free-banking system in the 18th century, luckily allowed by a political quirk of the country's union with England, is still one of history's few great examples of stable, effective and innovative banking.  Under this system, the per-capita GDP of Scotland went from half to equal to that of England.)

The purpose of the state is to uphold the values that have been agreed to by all members of society.  Anything extra is a form of oppression, mild or severe, by definition.  For better or worse, the only universal values we have developed so far are the sanctities of life and property.  We don't want to give guns to the state to arbitrate between savers and debtors, partly because we ourselves don't agree on how to do it, and partly because the biggest debtor of all can't really be expected to judge impartially.

I earnestly hope that democratic populations will eventually develop the maturity to demand simplicity in money, to understand that "complex" is not "better" -- it's dishonest.  This is not to give in to cynicism, or to think that simplicity is a virtue in all human systems.  (It's not.)  It's just that, with this system, the incentives to be dishonest have proved too great for mortal humans to resist.


The Future of Money

As an artificially complex system, the short-term future of money is fundamentally uncertain.  Though I don't like to indulge in predicting social and economic trends at the macro level (since, at heart, modern money is a political institution,) I'll survey a number of conceptually sound pathways we might follow, for better or worse, as some of the major possibilities.

We start with the simple observation that when there are many more tickets sold than seats available, something has to give, eventually.

Strangely, the big picture seems to be that only measures at one extreme or the other of the spectrum really make sense to the authorites.  A good analogy might be that modern money is a poker player who finds themselves with a weak hand in a big pot (which implies that other players probably have very good hands and won't fold easily.)  The player should either fold to cut their losses, or make a huge bet to try to scare the other players into folding.  Anything in the middle would guarantee defeat, and the stakes are high, no matter what happens.  (Note that the historical plumbing-like neutral function of money has been transformed into a poker game by the vested interests associated with state-managed money.)

So, one possibility is that the authorities decide to re-peg major paper currencies to gold, cryptocurrency, or other limited-supply commodity.  (In the case of cryptocurrency, there's a precondition that the world has grown to trust in its value and future.)  This is the well-trodden path of countless countries who end up having to peg their currencies to a strong Western one.  With a high enough peg rate, the issuers of currency will have enough financial stability to give themselves room to pursue fiscal and monetary stimulus more aggressively in order to achieve the growth, social stability and inflation they want.  So, inflation will come, and, fundamentally, this move would represent a repudiation of a large percentage of past debt (as well as of restoring paper currency's official status as debt) and a restart of the system.  But, of course, if the authorities are considering this move, they are not going to let the public know until the last minute.

Implicit in this move would be the acknowledgement of a certain failure.  For this reason, cryptocurrency might be a "better" candidate than gold, since there were much lower peg rates against gold in the past that central banks swore to defend.  If the populace still don't understand money, the authorities can claim that the pegging's purpose is to put money on a more advanced, electronic, foundation.  (It's possibly for this potential scenario that the US government has been generous enough to bitcoin that its value has risen so much in recent years.)

The other possibility is that the authorites defend the system by making financial repression overt, thus giving themselves much more power to stimulate the economy.  The key move would be making nominal interst rates negative.  Savers' money would be lost automatically, at a central-bank-determined rate, by staying in the bank, so they'd better spend or invest it, and stimulate the economy.  A crucial precondition would be the banning of cash by the major economies (since if bank interest is negative, people could defeat the system by having their money in cash.)  Thus, it's likely that the move would take two separate steps.  First cash would be banned, say, for anti-terrorism or anti-crime reasons.  When all major currencies were electronic-only, negative rates would be announced as a means for central banks to rescue and stimulate the economy.

In this scenario, precious metals and cryptocurrencies would probably be banned alongside cash, by claiming that they could be used as cash.

Needless to say, as in the equivalent poker play, there are various risks associated with this move, for the authorities (which we won't enumerate here,) assuming they could pull it off.  In addition, the elites themselves would have to ask, if nothing else, whether they really wanted their children and grandchildren to inherit a world where private property was radically redefined with highly unpredictably ultimate consequences.

One popular scenario among economists that IMO probably wouldn't survive is some kind of international reserve currency issued by some organization, perhaps modeled on the IMF's SDR.  The issuer of the reserve currency would draw confidence from neither the naturally limited supply of the money nor the power of a united sovereign state.  We only need to look at the euro to see this future unfold.  The euro is fundamentally destabilized first by the political wars between creditor and debtor member-nations, and then by the currency's issuer (the ECB) having to print money to "solve" all potential problems when politicians won't agree how to help out.  If this kind of problems arise among the relatively homogeneous European countries who pledge solidarity to each other, we can't hope to avoid them in the wider world.

Both the euro and any future fiat internationalized reserve currency suffer from the naivete that this kind of currencies will command confidence without the power of a strong and unified state to prop them up.

I would like to end on a hopeful note by citing the nowadays-little-known fact that China went from centuries of paper back to commodity money in the early Ming dynasty after experiencing inflation and severe financial repression to prop up the paper.  (This was not long after Marco Polo reported to Europe that paper money existed.)  Granted, a huge amount of silver was being discovered in South America, and some rich and powerful forces must have benefited from the change, it must also have involved some seeing of the light by the authorities.  If a country with centralized power, which was its own world, eventually acknowledged the natural laws of money, perhaps things will get better for us sooner rather than later.

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May 17, 2015, 02:24:53 AM
 #2

That was long  Cheesy

Money must be produced with similar value of its face value, otherwise it is just a IOU promise. However, since value is all subjective, the subjective measure of an IOU's value thus is based on the creditworthiness of the issuer

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May 17, 2015, 02:35:01 AM
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Earth has a heterarchical monetary authority: anyone may “mint” coins through an official channel (e.g., Writcoin[™]) and have these coins certified “Great Empire Coin (GEC)” by the Empire.

How does the G.E. coin relate to your monetary theories?

Escape the plutocrats’ zanpakutō, Flower in the Mirror, Moon on the Water: brave “the ascent which is rough and steep” (Plato).
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May 17, 2015, 06:09:58 AM
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How does bitcoin fit into the standard definition and traditional role of money? how might it change money? Are you going to have subsequent commentary that extend beyond this introduction? Have you linked this up with any of the other money supply and currency use discussions going on in this forum?

It would be nice to get a healthy, educated debate going on the key challenges facing bitcoin and "money".

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May 17, 2015, 04:03:30 PM
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Hi Bob, this is a surprisingly good analysis.  Thanks for posting it!  Now go write some academic papers Tongue

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May 17, 2015, 05:45:04 PM
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Earth has a heterarchical monetary authority: anyone may “mint” coins through an official channel (e.g., Writcoin[™]) and have these coins certified “Great Empire Coin (GEC)” by the Empire.

How does the G.E. coin relate to your monetary theories?

Not sure how G.E. works, but I would love to have a system where anyone can issue money and the markets decide which monies survive.  The basic problem we have is that state power is involved in artificially propping up monies.  The more the state props it up, the more fragile it gets over time, and life becomes a gamble.  (And surprise, surprise, the average person always seems to lose.)

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May 17, 2015, 05:54:23 PM
 #7

That was long  Cheesy

Money must be produced with similar value of its face value, otherwise it is just a IOU promise. However, since value is all subjective, the subjective measure of an IOU's value thus is based on the creditworthiness of the issuer

There's no need for an issuer.  China did fine between 1550 and 1850 with ingots of silver.  In fact, the more money is free of issuer, the better.  If there is to be an issuer, let the markets judge their creditworthiness, free of state intervention.

Money's intrinsic value rarely, if ever, comes close to its monetary value (and this includes gold and silver.)  And this has worked fine for millennia.

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May 17, 2015, 06:01:31 PM
 #8

How does bitcoin fit into the standard definition and traditional role of money? how might it change money? Are you going to have subsequent commentary that extend beyond this introduction? Have you linked this up with any of the other money supply and currency use discussions going on in this forum?

It would be nice to get a healthy, educated debate going on the key challenges facing bitcoin and "money".

IMO bitcoin is really a new gold or silver.  And these things don't come often in human civilization.  I'm not sure which "standard and traditional definition" you mean.  Is it the millennia-old system of money, or the centuries-old system of what I call modern money?

I will definitely talk more...  In fact I would say almost half of this essay has probably been covered in one way or another by my other posts in this forum.  I tend mostly to reply to others' comments.  Only twice, I believe, I have started new threads.

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May 17, 2015, 06:09:32 PM
 #9

Hi Bob, this is a surprisingly good analysis.  Thanks for posting it!  Now go write some academic papers Tongue

Thank you!  Academic papers would be tough.  I am trying to become good at clearly explaining something that is convoluted by nature (thanks to the elites' muddying the waters!) but I might have some way to go.

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May 17, 2015, 07:06:50 PM
 #10

Money is debt. Society can't shed debt without collapsing the money supply. Debt slaves borrow their money supply from debt slave masters.
The Gates Foundation is one of the biggest debt slave operations on the planet.
Whatever monetary wealth they hold onto is UNPAYABLE DEBT SOME OTHER GROUPS OF PEOPLE HAVE SLAVE AWAY AND PAY PERPETUAL INTEREST.
There is no way to pay back that debt because the money required is being held onto by the Gates Foundation.
The Matrix is child's play - real life is many times more Machiavellian.

Thank you, I think you hit one of the core issues.

Unfortunately, money is debt in modern times.  Most modern money is created by the banking system through "fractional reserve" banking.  So almost all money starts out as debt.  But debt becomes real money pretty quickly.  Say, a company borrows from the bank to operate.  As it pays out salaries, the employees fully own the money they receive.  But, since this money started out as debt, someone is still waiting to be repaid that same money that went into salaries.

So, if there's not enough economic growth (or at least demand, however artificial,) the whole system collapses.  The day when creditors as a whole decide there won't be enough growth to repay debt (for whatever reason, temporary or permanent), will be the day of the collapse of the money supply.  And most of these "creditors" are just depositors.  In fact, at 0% interest, why should anyone put money in the bank, if it were not for security?  Deposit insurance can never have enough funds to survive a systemic meltdown -- its design is always based on isolated bank insolvencies -- how else could it be cheap enough to entice people to put money in banks?  And the system (as usual) is deliberately vague as to whether deposits will be bailed out when deposit insurance itself is broke.

For all I know, we could be getting close to that point.  The authorities would certainly never broadcast the fact if we are.  Realistically, though, I believe the system will always bail out deposits and public debt, at least nominally.  These have been so much like real money that the social and political effects of a default would be intolerable.

For the above reasons, you can see why the modern system will always prop up the value of debt artificially, punishing savers and rewarding debtors (but as you point out, debt is by nature punishing, so, surprise, surprise, ordinary people are punished no matter what they do.)  Debt and faith in debt is what keeps the world running.  This is not a system a sane architect would design.  The only reason it survives is that the elites receive a huge benefit from it, and we don't know any better.

BTW, there is no inherent problem with debt.  Credit (we use this term when we want to put debt in a good light!) is essential to real economic growth.  The key question is whether the state (and, as a result, its banking allies) gets involved in manipulating the price of credit.

The Italian Renaissance was an example of state-free credit.  Contrary to what modern commentators would have you believe, great innovation and progress is possible under this system.  In this world, people lend out what they can afford to lose, and fully understand and accept the consequences of default.  Only truly viable projects get funded, as determined by the market, and as a result there is far less instability and misery due to debt default.

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May 17, 2015, 08:11:01 PM
 #11

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The purpose of the state is to uphold the values that have been agreed to by all members of society.

1) This is impossible since 100% will never agree on even basic values.

2) A majority or super-majority is an alternative, but...

3) as history will demonstrate the majority is often wrong.

4) Right and wrong are not determined by the majority, morality is absolute. What is right can be right even if everyone thinks it is wrong.

Although some people will disagree with me on this, I will still say it: murder is wrong is not an opinion but a fact. We can disagree about what constitutes murder, but every reasonable human being *must* accept that murder is wrong in order to participate in a credible discussion of ethics. This fact should reveal that ethics are absolute rather than a societal consensus. After all, in some societies human sacrifice or mass murder has been acceptable, but those actions are still objectively wrong.


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May 18, 2015, 02:22:27 AM
 #12

Not sure how G.E. works, but I would love to have a system where anyone can issue money and the markets decide which monies survive.

The G.E. government certifies coins as "Great Empire Coin (GEC)" through a network that allows one to spend more coins than they hold. This is the G.E. government's equivalent of empowering a central bank to purchase more bonds than the bank's preexisting cash holdings would permit.

Escape the plutocrats’ zanpakutō, Flower in the Mirror, Moon on the Water: brave “the ascent which is rough and steep” (Plato).
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May 18, 2015, 01:59:29 PM
 #13

Quote
The purpose of the state is to uphold the values that have been agreed to by all members of society.

1) This is impossible since 100% will never agree on even basic values.

2) A majority or super-majority is an alternative, but...

3) as history will demonstrate the majority is often wrong.

4) Right and wrong are not determined by the majority, morality is absolute. What is right can be right even if everyone thinks it is wrong.

Although some people will disagree with me on this, I will still say it: murder is wrong is not an opinion but a fact. We can disagree about what constitutes murder, but every reasonable human being *must* accept that murder is wrong in order to participate in a credible discussion of ethics. This fact should reveal that ethics are absolute rather than a societal consensus. After all, in some societies human sacrifice or mass murder has been acceptable, but those actions are still objectively wrong.



A philosophical discussion is probably beyond the scope I originally planned, but I would just say that we do need some state to uphold some kind of universal values, in practice.  Without that, it would be the law of the jungle, or the law of organized gangs.

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May 18, 2015, 04:52:07 PM
 #14

Not sure how G.E. works, but I would love to have a system where anyone can issue money and the markets decide which monies survive.

The G.E. government certifies coins as "Great Empire Coin (GEC)" through a network that allows one to spend more coins than they hold. This is the G.E. government's equivalent of empowering a central bank to purchase more bonds than the bank's preexisting cash holdings would permit.

What system is in place to prevent individuals from issuing/spending more money than they earn (in the past or future?)

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May 18, 2015, 05:13:06 PM
Last edit: May 18, 2015, 05:35:50 PM by BobK71
 #15

In a world where the things we need and use go bad, sharing comes naturally. The hoarder ends up sitting alone atop a pile of stale bread, rusty tools, and spoiled fruit, and no one wants to help him, for he has helped no one. Money today, however, is not like bread, fruit, or indeed any natural object. It is the lone exception to nature’s law of return, the law of life, death, and rebirth, which says that all things ultimately return to their source. Money does not decay over time, but in its abstraction from physicality, it remains changeless or even grows with time, exponentially, thanks to the power of interest.

The purpose of monetary society is to allow individuals the flexibility to earn and consume at different times, and to adjudicate the relative value of each good, service and consumption.  It also makes division of labor possible.  Money is one of the great inventions of humankind.

The vast majority of savers are not hoarders who refused to help others over their lives.  They are ordinary people trying to be able to consume when they become old or sick.  In any case, sharing what you have is a noble impulse that is fundamentally difficult to codify into a system, so it should probably stay as such.

And savers taking advantage of borrowers are not the predominant outcome of debt.  Inflation and default probably happen more often than loans repaid fully with higher-than-justified interest rates.

To be totally honest, you can't be 100% sure, but usually someone making a sweeping philosophical statement about money such as this has the ulterior motive of supporting the financial repression by the elites that makes the modern monetary system possible, that benefits them so much.  And their next device for repression will be negative interest rates, if they get their way.

For this reason, I have become wary of such statements, as I've read so many of them.  When all's said and done, money really shouldn't be considered that different from the simple and mundane object we all understand it to be.  If it really is more complicated, then something is wrong, since the elites will take advantage of the lack of understanding of the rest.  This last part is unfortunately all too true today.  There's nothing that will benefit the average person more, fundamentally, than fixing this anomaly.

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May 18, 2015, 08:27:56 PM
Last edit: May 18, 2015, 08:55:10 PM by username18333
 #16

What system is in place to prevent individuals from issuing/spending more money than they earn (in the past or future?)

Quote from: Judges 17:6, 21:25 (Darby)
In those days there was no king in Israel; every man did what was right in his own eyes.

Escape the plutocrats’ zanpakutō, Flower in the Mirror, Moon on the Water: brave “the ascent which is rough and steep” (Plato).
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May 18, 2015, 08:34:35 PM
 #17

To be totally honest, you can't be 100% sure, but usually someone making a sweeping philosophical statement about money such as this has the ulterior motive of supporting the financial repression by the elites that makes the modern monetary system possible, that benefits them so much.  And their next device for repression will be negative interest rates, if they get their way.

Quote from: Leviticus 25:35-38 (Darby)
And if thy brother grow poor, and he be fallen into decay beside thee, then thou shalt relieve him, [be he] stranger or sojourner, that he may live beside thee. Thou shalt take no usury nor increase of him; and thou shalt fear thy God; that thy brother may live beside thee. Thy money shalt thou not give him upon usury, nor lend him thy victuals for increase. I am Jehovah your God, who brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, to give you the land of Canaan, to be your God.
Quote from: Deuteronomy 23:19-20 (Darby)
Thou shalt take no interest of thy brother, interest of money, interest of victuals, interest of anything that can be lent upon interest: of a foreigner thou mayest take interest, but of thy brother thou shalt not take interest; that Jehovah thy God may bless thee in all the business of thy hand in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

Escape the plutocrats’ zanpakutō, Flower in the Mirror, Moon on the Water: brave “the ascent which is rough and steep” (Plato).
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May 19, 2015, 03:12:20 AM
 #18

Money is debt. Society can't shed debt without collapsing the money supply. Debt slaves borrow their money supply from debt slave masters.
The Gates Foundation is one of the biggest debt slave operations on the planet.
Whatever monetary wealth they hold onto is UNPAYABLE DEBT SOME OTHER GROUPS OF PEOPLE HAVE SLAVE AWAY AND PAY PERPETUAL INTEREST.
There is no way to pay back that debt because the money required is being held onto by the Gates Foundation.
The Matrix is child's play - real life is many times more Machiavellian.

Interest is not a big issue. Now when the interest rate can be negative, all the debt slave talk will be questioned. In a negative interest environment, you only need to return less money than you borrowed, and there will be more and more money left in the circulation, and debt will shrink

So, as long as banks control the money creation, they could adjust the game rules as wish: Positive interest, negative interest, more money, less money... anything can be done when you command the money creation

The real issue lies in money creation, e.g. if those money are created at a cost to its face value. If it much cheaper, then there are some kind of slavery. And another problem is people using fiat money as unit of value, it is people's trust of fiat money give the money creator right to rob them

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May 19, 2015, 03:30:08 AM
Last edit: May 19, 2015, 08:48:10 PM by username18333
 #19

it is people's trust of fiat money give the money creator right to rob them

If “people” (johnyj) should each, individually, prove a “money creator” (johnyj), need these concern themselves with the “right to rob” (johnyj)?

Escape the plutocrats’ zanpakutō, Flower in the Mirror, Moon on the Water: brave “the ascent which is rough and steep” (Plato).
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May 19, 2015, 04:44:43 AM
 #20

A philosophical discussion is probably beyond the scope I originally planned, but I would just say that we do need some state to uphold some kind of universal values, in practice.  Without that, it would be the law of the jungle, or the law of organized gangs.

The law of organized gangs is just another name for states, right.
The state is the violence monopolist.  If a gang has enough power in a territory to be unchallenged, then it is the state.
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