KncMiner XBT: 285 BTC traded at 285.38$ !

[cardiff97]

Interestingly the number of notes outstanding seems to have gone DOWN in the last 2 days according to Bloomberg  

http://www.bloomberg.com/quote/COINXBT:SS
-
Total Assets (m SEK) (on 06/04/2015)
7.973

NAV (on 06/04/2015)
9.305

= 857k notes outstanding vs 878k on Monday as calculated  above by gotmilk_

That would imply that the net of all the trades this week is sells BACK TO KnC ...

Perhaps it simply means KNC added some additional Bitcoins to the ETN?

[phoenix1]

<snip>

Perhaps it simply means KNC added some additional Bitcoins to the ETN?

Not following your logic at all there  
The number of notes outstanding IS the number of BTC in the ETN (after adjusting for fees and the multipier)

[Nahil]

Not following your logic at all there  
The number of notes outstanding IS the number of BTC in the ETN (after adjusting for fees and the multipier)

Do you mean at the first few days, some one bought some ETN, after that until today, those ETN have been sold back to KncMiner?

It could be: 1: It was KncMiner itself bought up those ETN at the first place trying to make their ETN trading frequency looks better 2: Buyers bought their ETN deiced to cut losses because bitcoin is crashing 3: KncMiner moved in more bitcoins and created more notes outstanding

[phoenix1]

Not following your logic at all there  
The number of notes outstanding IS the number of BTC in the ETN (after adjusting for fees and the multipier)

Do you mean at the first few days, some one bought some ETN, after that until today, those ETN have been sold back to KncMiner?

It could be: 1: It was KncMiner itself bought up those ETN at the first place trying to make their ETN trading frequency looks better 2: Buyers bought their ETN deiced to cut losses because bitcoin is crashing 3: KncMiner moved in more bitcoins and created more notes outstanding

No. Not exactly.
If someone buys from KnC (more accurately XBT Provider), notes are created, number of notes oustanding increases.
If someone sells those notes to another broker, not representing KnC, number of notes outstanding remains the same.
If that broker is representing KnC the number of notes will decrease. KnC provide liquidity in this instrument, so this will happen at times if there is no other buyer or KnC actively seek to buy back notes (for example if they were trading well below NAV, they would be motivated to do this)
 
I am saying that the net of all trades this week was sales back to KnC

As for your suggestions ...
1) Yes that is possible, but I doubt they would sell them back to themselves again so soon, so I think this is unlikely. It's probably not legal either to manipulate the metrics in this way.
2) Hardly crashing, but yes, this is the most likely reason. Some people are simply trading/market-making these notes, not investing. If the selling is mopped up by KnC, notes outstanding decreases.
3) That makes no sense - the number of notes outstanding decreased. In any case, as it is an ETN, the number of notes outstanding represents the number held by investors/traders. KnC can't 'move in more bitcoins' and create more notes. Notes are created when people buy from KnC and not from the existing free-float held by other traders (ie the existing pool of notes outstanding) and they are then backed by BTC held by KnC. Make sense?

If the number of notes outstanding has decreased, I can see no other means how this can happen except by net selling back to KnC. If someone thinks this is incorrect please show me how.

[hprna]

day 1 history : 949 BTC (189783 shares) traded at 232.84$
day 2 history : 546 BTC (109376 shares) traded at 232.6$
day 3 history : 455 BTC (90988 shares) traded at 232.2$
day 4 history : 681 BTC (136233 shares) traded at 235.95$
day 5 history : 643 BTC (128618 shares) traded at 237.21$
day 6 history : 453 BTC (90759 shares) traded at 237.21$
day 7 history : 756 BTC (151238 shares) traded at 236.8$
day 8 history : 431 BTC (86275 shares) traded at 236.1$
day 9 history : 360 BTC (72006 shares) traded at 237.7$
day 10 history : 533 BTC (106617 shares) traded at 234.9$
day 11 history : 595 BTC (119031 shares) traded at 226.83$
day 12 history : 224 BTC (44950 shares) traded at 224.46$
day 13 history : 280 BTC (56022 shares) traded at 227.91$
day 14 history : 545 BTC (109117 shares) traded at 225.78$
day 15 history : 293 BTC (58629 shares) traded at 226.31$
day 16 history : 240 BTC (48075 shares) traded at 227.63$

[gotmilk_]

http://www.netfonds.se/quotes/ppaper.php?paper=BITCOIN-XBT.ST

90k in first 15min 

[Alley]

OP is starting to sound like a troll with the thread title. Knc is dying?  Riiight...

[hprna]

day 1 history : 949 BTC (189783 shares) traded at 232.84$
day 2 history : 546 BTC (109376 shares) traded at 232.6$
day 3 history : 455 BTC (90988 shares) traded at 232.2$
day 4 history : 681 BTC (136233 shares) traded at 235.95$
day 5 history : 643 BTC (128618 shares) traded at 237.21$
day 6 history : 453 BTC (90759 shares) traded at 237.21$
day 7 history : 756 BTC (151238 shares) traded at 236.8$
day 8 history : 431 BTC (86275 shares) traded at 236.1$
day 9 history : 360 BTC (72006 shares) traded at 237.7$
day 10 history : 533 BTC (106617 shares) traded at 234.9$
day 11 history : 595 BTC (119031 shares) traded at 226.83$
day 12 history : 224 BTC (44950 shares) traded at 224.46$
day 13 history : 280 BTC (56022 shares) traded at 227.91$
day 14 history : 545 BTC (109117 shares) traded at 225.78$
day 15 history : 293 BTC (58629 shares) traded at 226.31$
day 16 history : 240 BTC (48075 shares) traded at 227.63$
day 17 history : 705 BTC (141025 shares) traded at 230.32$

[mrhelpful]

In my eyes, KNC isnt dying, its more like KNC just wants to cash out, most of their coins it seems.

And hold some incase if it goes the other way. Or either if they are in debt after their mining operations.

[JorgeStolfi]

This chart claims that they have 6% of the total hashpower, so they must be mining ~215 BTC/day, 7 days per week; or ~300 BTC per workday. 

The average trade volume last week, converted to BTC, was ~390 BTC per work day.   But surely there was quite a bit of re-trading of the same notes.  When KnC issues more notes, which broker sells them? "NON"?

[phoenix1]

This chart claims that they have 6% of the total hashpower, so they must be mining ~215 BTC/day, 7 days per week; or ~300 BTC per workday. 

The average trade volume last week, converted to BTC, was ~390 BTC per work day.   But surely there was quite a bit of re-trading of the same notes.  When KnC issues more notes, which broker sells them? "NON"?

You can monitor the issuance of notes here and hence follow how much is trading and how much issuance ...

http://www.bloomberg.com/quote/COINXBT:SS

Number of notes = Total Assets/NAV

At the moment it is fairly stable at 856k = 4280 BTC - dipped last week and now back up again.
that would be an average of 250BTC per work day. A bit less than they are mining, but if this is 'new demand' rather than people who would have otherwise not bought, it pretty much eliminates any effect of them selling on exchange.

Two caveats - I am not 100% sure of the accuracy of the updating of the Bloomberg numbers as I have seen them increase by more than the trade volume on one trading day (this Monday), which in theory is not possible. As it was just the once, for now, I will let it pass, but keeping an eye on it nonetheless.
Also, it did not change at all yesterday despite the high trade volume, which seems surprising.

[hprna]

day 1 history : 949 BTC (189783 shares) traded at 232.84$
day 2 history : 546 BTC (109376 shares) traded at 232.6$
day 3 history : 455 BTC (90988 shares) traded at 232.2$
day 4 history : 681 BTC (136233 shares) traded at 235.95$
day 5 history : 643 BTC (128618 shares) traded at 237.21$
day 6 history : 453 BTC (90759 shares) traded at 237.21$
day 7 history : 756 BTC (151238 shares) traded at 236.8$
day 8 history : 431 BTC (86275 shares) traded at 236.1$
day 9 history : 360 BTC (72006 shares) traded at 237.7$
day 10 history : 533 BTC (106617 shares) traded at 234.9$
day 11 history : 595 BTC (119031 shares) traded at 226.83$
day 12 history : 224 BTC (44950 shares) traded at 224.46$
day 13 history : 280 BTC (56022 shares) traded at 227.91$
day 14 history : 545 BTC (109117 shares) traded at 225.78$
day 15 history : 293 BTC (58629 shares) traded at 226.31$
day 16 history : 240 BTC (48075 shares) traded at 227.63$
day 17 history : 705 BTC (141025 shares) traded at 230.32$
day 18 history : 615 BTC (123100 shares) traded at 230.2$

[techgeek]

I really dont understand why KNC held so many coins.

Then all of a sudden launch their own exchange, and have a selling spree..

[gotmilk_]

I really dont understand why KNC held so many coins.

Then all of a sudden launch their own exchange, and have a selling spree..

Many? XBT provider holds in notes 4332 btc...
KNC probably holds more, but it is also known that they were daily selling a big portion of new coins. They just find another way to sell and since XBT Provider is part of KNC they make extra money with fees, etc.

[luciann]

I really dont understand why KNC held so many coins.

Then all of a sudden launch their own exchange, and have a selling spree..

Many? XBT provider holds in notes 4332 btc...
KNC probably holds more, but it is also known that they were daily selling a big portion of new coins. They just find another way to sell and since XBT Provider is part of KNC they make extra money with fees, etc.

wait, I didnt even know XBT was part of KNC.

Just how many sites are involved with KNC? Also is XBT an exchange? dumb question, cause I had no idea as well.

[hprna]

day 1 history : 949 BTC (189783 shares) traded at 232.84$
day 2 history : 546 BTC (109376 shares) traded at 232.6$
day 3 history : 455 BTC (90988 shares) traded at 232.2$
day 4 history : 681 BTC (136233 shares) traded at 235.95$
day 5 history : 643 BTC (128618 shares) traded at 237.21$
day 6 history : 453 BTC (90759 shares) traded at 237.21$
day 7 history : 756 BTC (151238 shares) traded at 236.8$
day 8 history : 431 BTC (86275 shares) traded at 236.1$
day 9 history : 360 BTC (72006 shares) traded at 237.7$
day 10 history : 533 BTC (106617 shares) traded at 234.9$
day 11 history : 595 BTC (119031 shares) traded at 226.83$
day 12 history : 224 BTC (44950 shares) traded at 224.46$
day 13 history : 280 BTC (56022 shares) traded at 227.91$
day 14 history : 545 BTC (109117 shares) traded at 225.78$
day 15 history : 293 BTC (58629 shares) traded at 226.31$
day 16 history : 240 BTC (48075 shares) traded at 227.63$
day 17 history : 705 BTC (141025 shares) traded at 230.32$
day 18 history : 615 BTC (123100 shares) traded at 230.2$
day 19 history : 815 BTC (163000 shares) traded at 230.3$

[gotmilk_]

ATH in volume (211000 notes) before 13.00 CET.

[phoenix1]

ATH in volume (211000 notes) before 13.00 CET.

Will be interesing to see the Bloomberg info tomorrow ... as of yesterday we are showing only and increase of 70k notes outstanding  on the week (nd extra 350BTC), a  total of 863k (4315BTC)
So thats 4300 BTC of notes outstanding on a trading volume of approx 10,000 BTC

So it look like for the last 2 weeks there has been no net issuance.
I guess in a way, that means KnC are doing a good job of providing liquidity, but I am surprised with these increased volume numbers that we are not seeing an incremental increase in notes outstanding. The ratio of holding:trading is swinging more to trading already.

End of day edit : Volume today was an impressive 291,000 notes
                       Increase in notes outstanding was a not so impressive 29,000 notes.
                       Thats 10% new issuance and 90% churn ...

1st 20 days  - BTC traded  - approx 11,500
                  - Notes outstanding - approx 4,450 BTC

Honestly, I as said before, I expected more buy and hold, but it seems it is mainly attracting short term speculation, which is not really what KnC are after. They want buyers for their mined coins, not traders.
Its still early days, but we have seen virtually no change in the oustanding notes for the last 2 weeks of 4 

I guess this will change when a clear uptrend is in progress. Til then ... its a bit 'meh' IMO

[gotmilk_]

Yep... I expect bigger volume when btc starts moving. Right now btc is more boring than gold.
About the btc holdings... If they issue for 5k btc notes  every month, this means 60k btc per year

Btw. I get 4462 btc in outstanding shares... What am i missing?

[Kupsi]

Btw. I get 4462 btc in outstanding shares... What am i missing?

That's correct. Bloomberg is updated with todays numbers.