delete Investor-based games section

[SaltySpitoon]

Scam: (transitive) to swindle (someone) by means of a trick

No one here is being tricked. If you know what the word Ponzi means, and you invest in a site named Ponzi, is that not willingly investing and not being tricked? I agree that Gambling sites are the exact same thing, you just play them in different ways. Provably fair and such are just buzz words. It doesn't mean that the odds are fair, it just means that they give you the odds, and you agree to those odds before playing. Traditional casinos and such aren't a scam, but they aren't provably fair.

I don't see why people want to censor things rather than just allow people to use their own judgement. I agree that hidden ponzi schemes are a scam, but all of these just come right out and say they are ponzis, no false expectations, no tricks, not a scam. If someone puts money in and get burnt, what is the difference between then putting money into a dice game and losing? And before you say odds, just because Ponzis don't have published odds, doesn't mean that you can't calculate your own odds.

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[XinXan]

Scam: (transitive) to swindle (someone) by means of a trick

No one here is being tricked. If you know what the word Ponzi means, and you invest in a site named Ponzi, is that not willingly investing and not being tricked? I agree that Gambling sites are the exact same thing, you just play them in different ways. Provably fair and such are just buzz words. It doesn't mean that the odds are fair, it just means that they give you the odds, and you agree to those odds before playing. Traditional casinos and such aren't a scam, but they aren't provably fair.

I don't see why people want to censor things rather than just allow people to use their own judgement. I agree that hidden ponzi schemes are a scam, but all of these just come right out and say they are ponzis, no false expectations, no tricks, not a scam. If someone puts money in and get burnt, what is the difference between then putting money into a dice game and losing? And before you say odds, just because Ponzis don't have published odds, doesn't mean that you can't calculate your own odds.

So if i come here and say im going to launch a lottery, 0.01 each ticket, if you get lucky you might win 1 bitcoin but im not going to tell you the odds and it is not certain if anyone will win. Thats not a scam to you because i stated clearly how it works?

[dogie]

It doesnt matter if he hides it or not, scam: n. A fraudulent business scheme; a swindle.  Its the definition of a scam, doesnt matter what, are you going to write a new dictionary?

You don't need to write a new dictionary. They also fall under the definition of gambling whether you like it or not:

    1.
    play games of chance for money; bet.
 
    2.
    take risky action in the hope of a desired result.

   

This is also how I feel about casinos v HYIPs on bct. We are unable to vouch for any legitimacy for an online bitcoin based casino because there is no guarantee that its not just going to alt + F4 away with deposits after a while, which is exactly the same with a HYIP. Considering gambling vs scams IRL is entirely different because that 40 story casino isn't suddenly going to grow legs and try and walk away with your deposit.

Or I hope not. Although that would make a good Godzilla sequel plot.

[Keyser Soze]

So if i come here and say im going to launch a lottery, 0.01 each ticket, if you get lucky you might win 1 bitcoin but im not going to tell you the odds and it is not certain if anyone will win. Thats not a scam to you because i stated clearly how it works?

If you don't state the odds or how a winner is chosen, then you are not clearly stating how it works.

[doves]

-snip-
>The section is not named ponzis go here for a reason.
What's the reason?

They are games based on an "investment", a form of PvP gambling. A ponzi is not openly telling you that it is one, it will try to hide the fact that they do nothing but moving funds around until the very end. A ponzi is by definition a scam, but its based on secrecy. Same with the gift cards, you cant tell in advance which ones are carded and which not.

-snip-

-snip-

How do you know its "BADTHING" and not "FORM OF GAMBLING"?

Have we shifted the topic to discussing whether Ponzis are bad? Up until now I assumed that we're in agreement on that? If you wish, I could explain why ponzis are illegal in most of the civilized world.

No, I agree that a ponzi is bad. I would also not play the games in this section, but I will defend the right to play them for those that want to. If you cant see the difference between the game based on a ponzi principle and a straight ponzi I understand you, because I had problems understanding this concept at first as well.

This is a forum about Bitcoin, the revolutionary currency that's changing the world.
As someone has previously mentioned in this thread, ponzi schemes have been around long before Bitcoin, and Bitcoin has no more to do with them than does fiat.

Which begs the question: How is it that fiat financial forums don't have sections dedicated to gambling and ponzis, but we do? What, exactly, are we suggesting here?

Let me give you an analogy.
Let's say I run an investment firm, and a kid's selling crack to crackwhores on my stoop. When I ask him to move along, you appear & tell me that the kid's running a perfectly legitimate business: crackwhores need crack, and he fills that need. I respond by pointing out that, being an overly concerned with appearances shallow banker type, I feel that rockstahs scoring crack on my stoop may cast a somewhat downmarket tint on my otherwise upscale investment firm, and may play a part in the less-than-stellar coverage given my financial institution by the mainstream press.

I further point out that the kid's free to sell his wares anywhere but on my stoop, because I'm superficial enough to believe that appearances count.

Get it?

[XinXan]

So if i come here and say im going to launch a lottery, 0.01 each ticket, if you get lucky you might win 1 bitcoin but im not going to tell you the odds and it is not certain if anyone will win. Thats not a scam to you because i stated clearly how it works?

If you don't state the odds or how a winner is chosen, then you are not clearly stating how it works.

Well shit, isnt that how ponzies work?? Even when they state that you may not be paid or he may just run with your money, he never tells you when or the odds you have of winning or loosing, thats my point exactly..

[SaltySpitoon]

So if i come here and say im going to launch a lottery, 0.01 each ticket, if you get lucky you might win 1 bitcoin but im not going to tell you the odds and it is not certain if anyone will win. Thats not a scam to you because i stated clearly how it works?

Well, I don't think anyone would give you any money in that case. The same should be true of a ponzi that acts similar. If you actually read any ponzi schemes, they tend to have payout amounts, dates, etc. The odds are dynamic, not unknown.

In your situation, no I don't think its a scam, unless you intend on scamming in the first place. People are welcome to throw away their money if they want. Its their decision.

[Nowi]

Its good section. Ok not for people who do not want to risk any amount of bitcoins, but you can ignore them then. But protect newbies from that sections is good think.

[Keyser Soze]

If you don't state the odds or how a winner is chosen, then you are not clearly stating how it works.

Well shit, isnt that how ponzies work?? Even when they state that you may not be paid or he may just run with your money, he never tells you when or the odds you have of winning or loosing, thats my point exactly..

Not necessarily, there are some ponzi "games" that are upfront that they are a ponzi and clearly state the rules of the game. If the operator is honest and follows the rules of the game, then it is not a scam. The problem is that there is no way to make them provably fair and an honest ponzi game may look identical to a ponzi game where the operator is cheating against the players.

The investor-based games sub-section was created because the gambling section was flooded with these types of games. Without this section, they would just flood the main gambling section again.

[tidus1097]

If you don't state the odds or how a winner is chosen, then you are not clearly stating how it works.

Well shit, isnt that how ponzies work?? Even when they state that you may not be paid or he may just run with your money, he never tells you when or the odds you have of winning or loosing, thats my point exactly..

Not necessarily, there are some ponzi "games" that are upfront that they are a ponzi and clearly state the rules of the game. If the operator is honest and follows the rules of the game, then it is not a scam. The problem is that there is no way to make them provably fair and an honest ponzi game may look identical to a ponzi game where the operator is cheating against the players.

The investor-based games sub-section was created because the gambling section was flooded with these types of games. Without this section, they would just flood the main gambling section again.

At least its all contained to once place in the forum. If it wasn't for this, you forget how people would try to advertise a ponzi or a investor based game like btc-flow and those type of games. Generally gambling comes with a certain risk anyways and if you don't follow the general pro quo, Never gamble more than you can afford to lose, you will probably end up hating yourself in return. I look at it like this. With a casino you have a general base of rules that must be followed and met. With a ponzi, you have those as well, but you have to factor in whether the operator is legit or not. So that's a gamble in itself.

[RussianRaibow]

If you don't state the odds or how a winner is chosen, then you are not clearly stating how it works.

Well shit, isnt that how ponzies work?? Even when they state that you may not be paid or he may just run with your money, he never tells you when or the odds you have of winning or loosing, thats my point exactly..

Not necessarily, there are some ponzi "games" that are upfront that they are a ponzi and clearly state the rules of the game. If the operator is honest and follows the rules of the game, then it is not a scam. The problem is that there is no way to make them provably fair and an honest ponzi game may look identical to a ponzi game where the operator is cheating against the players.

The investor-based games sub-section was created because the gambling section was flooded with these types of games. Without this section, they would just flood the main gambling section again.

At least its all contained to once place in the forum. If it wasn't for this, you forget how people would try to advertise a ponzi or a investor based game like btc-flow and those type of games. Generally gambling comes with a certain risk anyways and if you don't follow the general pro quo, Never gamble more than you can afford to lose, you will probably end up hating yourself in return. I look at it like this. With a casino you have a general base of rules that must be followed and met. With a ponzi, you have those as well, but you have to factor in whether the operator is legit or not. So that's a gamble in itself.

+1

Very well summarized... especially the bold part.

[XinXan]

If you don't state the odds or how a winner is chosen, then you are not clearly stating how it works.

Well shit, isnt that how ponzies work?? Even when they state that you may not be paid or he may just run with your money, he never tells you when or the odds you have of winning or loosing, thats my point exactly..

Not necessarily, there are some ponzi "games" that are upfront that they are a ponzi and clearly state the rules of the game. If the operator is honest and follows the rules of the game, then it is not a scam. The problem is that there is no way to make them provably fair and an honest ponzi game may look identical to a ponzi game where the operator is cheating against the players.

The investor-based games sub-section was created because the gambling section was flooded with these types of games. Without this section, they would just flood the main gambling section again.

At least its all contained to once place in the forum. If it wasn't for this, you forget how people would try to advertise a ponzi or a investor based game like btc-flow and those type of games. Generally gambling comes with a certain risk anyways and if you don't follow the general pro quo, Never gamble more than you can afford to lose, you will probably end up hating yourself in return. I look at it like this. With a casino you have a general base of rules that must be followed and met. With a ponzi, you have those as well, but you have to factor in whether the operator is legit or not. So that's a gamble in itself.

+1

Very well summarized... especially the bold part.

Then again, and i have said this 4 times already, casinos tell you your odss, ponzies dont because there are no odds, you might just deposit 0.02 and if no one deposits 0.02 you lose and thats it end of the game. As someone said, lers make a section for each type of scam since scammers would go there to advertise their scam right?

[tss]

it's better to keep them to one section rather than allow it to spread all over the forum.. i dont visit that section but im glad it is there to categorize the scams to one place that i wont visit.

[shorena]

-snip-
Get it?

All I understood is that you are apparently unable to argue. Your parables makes no sense as they are none. You try to project your assumptions that the games are scams into them which render them useless. Repeating the same boring and tiresome dance is useless. Maybe our next discussion will make do without these.

[doves]

^
No, shorena, you're mistaken, I've never suggested that ponzis are scams.
The nice story about the crackdealer on my stoop describes a fair and decent crack dealer. The kid don't scam, the crackwhores really do give head, so they're providing a service.

My only objection is to all this fairness happening right on my stoop--crackwhores are not the desired demographic of my financial firm. It scares the customers away by allowing them to (unsoundly) assume that my investment firm is, in some way, related to selling rock to whores. "If you got nothing to do with crackwhores, why are they sucking the D, glass and otherwise, right in your lobby, why in the world did you set up a shop for them?" my clients ask me.

And there I stand, shorena, blushing. Unable to explain why I set up a section for promoting ponzis in my forum about Bitcoin (which has nothing to do with ponzis).

Finally, I'm not arguing with you, shorena. I'm just explaining the obvious: that having a gambling section on Bitcointalk is embarrassing enough, but having two gambling sections? Why, ffs?

-snip-
I don't see why people want to censor things rather than just allow people to use their own judgement.
-snip-

Unsure about OP, but I don't want to censor anything. On the contrary, there's nothing fair about ghettoizing fair ponzis. They have a right to compete with other fair gambling games, on a level playing field.

Edited for typos

[Muhammed Zakir]

-snip-
Fnally, I'm not arguing with you, shorena. I'm just explaining the obvious: that having a gambling section on Bitcointalk is embarrassing enough, but having two gambling sections? Why, ffs?
 -snip-

To filter ponzis/HYIPs and similar from gambling and it's discussion.

[doves]

^To what end? If ponzis are gambling, why subjugate them to a subforum? AFAIK, dice games don't have a special sub, neither does poker.

And I'm still at a loss re. legacy finance forums not having sections dedicated to promotion of ponzis, or ones selling warez. Could you opine on the matter?

-snip-
But seriously, people are way better off with their own forums. Then you don't have to deal with someone else's rules. We don't have the resources nor desire to cater to the Alt Coin ponzi communities. Bitcointalk offers a basic board for people to make their announcement, find their community members, and then migrate to a place where they can discuss uninterrupted by others.

[Muhammed Zakir]

^To what end? If ponzis are gambling, why subjugate them to a subforum? AFAIK, dice games don't have a special sub, neither does poker.

The Gambling board was cluttered with ponzi/HYIP threads. To avoid this, a new board was created. Search "ponzi" in Meta and you can see many threads suggesting to create new board. Number of dice games and/or poker threads aren't high as ponzis/HYIPs were/are.

And I'm still at a loss re. legacy finance forums not having sections dedicated to promotion of ponzis, or ones selling warez. Could you opine on the matter?

-snip-
But seriously, people are way better off with their own forums. Then you don't have to deal with someone else's rules. We don't have the resources nor desire to cater to the Alt Coin ponzi communities. Bitcointalk offers a basic board for people to make their announcement, find their community members, and then migrate to a place where they can discuss uninterrupted by others.

I am not an expert in this, so I can't comment. Two things I am sure are ponzis/HYIPs is illegal and theymos doesn't do anything silly. There must be some lawys which allows a dedicated board for ponzis/HYIPs in a forum.

[doves]

>I am not an expert in this, so I can't comment.

No, you're not an expert, Muhammed Zakir, which never stopped you from spamming before. Because your shit sig ad makes you a few satoshi each time you post.

If you didn't have mod dick in your mouth, all the time, you would have been banned a long time ago. But mod dick needs sucking, so you're still here.

I'll now politely ask you to stop posting in this thread. Thanks.

[Nextgen]

if Investor-based games section removed then they will start posting thread about their ponzi site everywhere in forum
its better to keep all the ponzi in one section the all over the forum