delete Investor-based games section

[Xialla]

Hey there,

I just want to ask you, if you think that we need this section on this forum and what is purpose? Concentrate scammers and frauds to one place?

In last couple of days, I start observing the section daily and spend couple of hours here. ALL (and yes, I'm not aware using word ALL here) threads here had just one purpose and it is steal people bitcoin, lure them to invest BTC and vanish.

Even you can say, that it is problem of those guys, which decided to invest..it is just throwing really bad impression to whole bitcoin, just because those scammed people are also real people from real world and they have to exchange their earned money to BTC. And then they lost them..and you know what. They will just say "bitcoin is scam" instead of "somebody scammed me". I really think that negative effect of this subsection is much higher then positive one (if there is any)

So you think, that is fine to had this section here?

Bitcoin Forum > Economy > Marketplace > Gambling > Investor-based games

TY for reaction.

X.

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[Muhammed Zakir]

Scams aren't moderated.

Ponzis/HYIPs were cluttering Gambling and Games and Round boards. To avoid this, a new section is created. Everyone is aware that section is almost filled with scams.

[Outlander]

Deleting investor-based games will ruin other sections.

Ponzi was one of the oldest internet scam, born long long time ago before bicoin, there was no connection between bitcoin and ponzi scam.

[tmfp]

I've been following it too, it is a cesspit for sure but, as it concentrates the obvious scams in one place I think it helps introduce newbies to the concept of due diligence, maybe at the cost of a bit of dust.
Look at it as a training ground where kids can play with some sats and learn a bit about scams, then they can graduate to the main board and get ripped off properly by the professionals.

 

[NeuroticFish]

It was by special request from many users to put those boards together, exactly because they filled up (with crap) the whole Gaming board.
Also, this way you can easily set in your profile to not see that area anymore, which you just reminded me to do 

[hilariousandco]

In last couple of days, I start observing the section daily and spend couple of hours here.

Why are you spending a couple of hours there?

ALL (and yes, I'm not aware using word ALL here) threads here had just one purpose and it is steal people bitcoin, lure them to invest BTC and vanish.

You could argue all the sites in the Gambling section are there just to steal your money. People know what they're sending their money to and that's their choice whether they gamble on a dice site or a ponzi.

[Xialla]

because I just want to observe some new section of this board. It is not against moderators or staff, I just want to know, why we somehow enabled and now ignoring platform here, where are scammed people on daily basis..

[Xialla]

Also, this way you can easily set in your profile to not see that area anymore, which you just reminded me to do 

wow really this is possible? so what about hide this section for all new acc and had some warning message before enabling it..?

also..how to make in invisible?

[Muhammed Zakir]

Also, this way you can easily set in your profile to not see that area anymore, which you just reminded me to do 

wow really this is possible? so what about hide this section for all new acc and had some warning message before enabling it..?

No.

also..how to make in invisible?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=profile;sa=ignoreBoards

By doing so, you won't see posts made in this board by other users but you can visit it by clicking link(s).

[XinXan]

In last couple of days, I start observing the section daily and spend couple of hours here.

Why are you spending a couple of hours there?

ALL (and yes, I'm not aware using word ALL here) threads here had just one purpose and it is steal people bitcoin, lure them to invest BTC and vanish.

You could argue all the sites in the Gambling section are there just to steal your money. People know what they're sending their money to and that's their choice whether they gamble on a dice site or a ponzi.

Please stop comparing casinos with ponzies, even if a ponzi owner tells you exactly that he is going to scam you, that doesnt make it ok or equal to gambling, you have provably fair in casinos, you dont have anything when using ponzies

[hilariousandco]

Please stop comparing casinos with ponzies, even if a ponzi owner tells you exactly that he is going to scam you, that doesnt make it ok or equal to gambling, you have provably fair in casinos, you dont have anything when using ponzies

Why? Nobody is forcing you to gamble, nobody is forcing you to send money to a ponzi. You make the choice what to gamble your money. You might get scammed by a dice site too, and something being fair or provably fair doesn't stop something from being gambling or not but that's up to the person whether they agree to those odds which they do by participating in them.

[MarbleBoss]

In last couple of days, I start observing the section daily and spend couple of hours here. ALL (and yes, I'm not aware using word ALL here) threads here had just one purpose and it is steal people bitcoin, lure them to invest BTC and vanish.

I would vigorously oppose this statement. Yes, most of the games in this section are scam, but not ALL. Both Nine9.ninja & CrazyPonzi.com are absolutely different in nature than the others. Though Nine9.ninja is almost dead now as the owner did not add features to his game, CrazyPonzi.com is quite alive and evolving. Unlike Ponzi scams, in these games Bankroll is self adjusting and never grow to a level where owner may chose to run away with it. Hence they are running honestly for over months. The problem is that these games mostly get burried by the heaps of scam threads bumped by hundreds of shills.

[XinXan]

Please stop comparing casinos with ponzies, even if a ponzi owner tells you exactly that he is going to scam you, that doesnt make it ok or equal to gambling, you have provably fair in casinos, you dont have anything when using ponzies

Why? Nobody is forcing you to gamble, nobody is forcing you to send money to a ponzi. You make the choice what to gamble your money. You might get scammed by a dice site too, and something being fair or provably fair doesn't stop something from being gambling or not but that's up to the person whether they agree to those odds which they do by participating in them.

Because ponzi is the definition of scam, you can just search on wikipedia, it will tell you its a scam, if you search roulette or dice it doesnt say its a scam. Provably fair and odds, what are your odds on ponzies? Uncertain, no one knows, the owner could run any minute with your money.

Its like smoking, its bad and everyone knows it, yet people chose to do it, but that doesnt make it a good thing, it only makes them stupid

[erikalui]

I support this as the board can only lead to scams. I guess there was a warning attached to that section but now it has been removed. It read that trade/invest with caution or something similar. The section is clearly for money laundering and also the Gambling section should be removed.

[RussianRaibow]

Please stop comparing casinos with ponzies, even if a ponzi owner tells you exactly that he is going to scam you, that doesnt make it ok or equal to gambling, you have provably fair in casinos, you dont have anything when using ponzies

Why? Nobody is forcing you to gamble, nobody is forcing you to send money to a ponzi. You make the choice what to gamble your money. You might get scammed by a dice site too, and something being fair or provably fair doesn't stop something from being gambling or not but that's up to the person whether they agree to those odds which they do by participating in them.

Because ponzi is the definition of scam, you can just search on wikipedia, it will tell you its a scam, if you search roulette or dice it doesnt say its a scam. Provably fair and odds, what are your odds on ponzies? Uncertain, no one knows, the owner could run any minute with your money.

Its like smoking, its bad and everyone knows it, yet people chose to do it, but that doesnt make it a good thing, it only makes them stupid

In response to what you are saying, I'd just quote Dooglus...

I personally don't consider any kind of Ponzi to be scammy unless they are selling it as guaranteed profit. Most of them promise to return X% profit within Y time because the are great at trading / mining / whatever. If they make it clear that you only get paid if enough people join after you, then that turns it into a game where everyone knows the risks, and I don't see anything wrong with that.

My personal policy is that a Ponzi is a scam if it is deceptive, and not if it isn't.

[hilariousandco]

Because ponzi is the definition of scam, you can just search on wikipedia, it will tell you its a scam, if you search roulette or dice it doesnt say its a scam.

Scams are usually where a person gets duped into something without their knowledge and Ponzis are scams because in the real world their nature is hidden, but the ones in the gambling section here aren't so people know what they're doing when they send them money.

Provably fair and odds, what are your odds on ponzies? Uncertain, no one knows, the owner could run any minute with your money.

Its like smoking, its bad and everyone knows it, yet people chose to do it, but that doesnt make it a good thing, it only makes them stupid

Just because the odds are uncertain doesn't mean anything especially when people are willingly taking the uncertain odds, and like whether someone chooses to smoke or not that is their choice and you have absolutely no say on that.

[Blazed]

Because ponzi is the definition of scam, you can just search on wikipedia, it will tell you its a scam, if you search roulette or dice it doesnt say its a scam.

Scams are usually where a person gets duped into something without their knowledge and Ponzis are scams because in the real world their nature is hidden, but the ones in the gambling section here aren't so people know what they're doing when they send them money.

Provably fair and odds, what are your odds on ponzies? Uncertain, no one knows, the owner could run any minute with your money.

Its like smoking, its bad and everyone knows it, yet people chose to do it, but that doesnt make it a good thing, it only makes them stupid

Just because the odds are uncertain doesn't mean anything especially when people are willingly taking the uncertain odds, and like whether someone chooses to smoke or not that is their choice and you have absolutely no say on that.

I agree if something is clearly labeled as a HIYP/Ponzi then it is not a scam at all. If the creator tries to hide that fact then yes it is bad/scam.

[XinXan]

Because ponzi is the definition of scam, you can just search on wikipedia, it will tell you its a scam, if you search roulette or dice it doesnt say its a scam.

Scams are usually where a person gets duped into something without their knowledge and Ponzis are scams because in the real world their nature is hidden, but the ones in the gambling section here aren't so people know what they're doing when they send them money.

Provably fair and odds, what are your odds on ponzies? Uncertain, no one knows, the owner could run any minute with your money.

Its like smoking, its bad and everyone knows it, yet people chose to do it, but that doesnt make it a good thing, it only makes them stupid

Just because the odds are uncertain doesn't mean anything especially when people are willingly taking the uncertain odds, and like whether someone chooses to smoke or not that is their choice and you have absolutely no say on that.

I agree if something is clearly labeled as a HIYP/Ponzi then it is not a scam at all. If the creator tries to hide that fact then yes it is bad/scam.

It doesnt matter if he hides it or not, scam: n. A fraudulent business scheme; a swindle.  Its the definition of a scam, doesnt matter what, are you going to write a new dictionary?

[doves]

Ponzi was one of the oldest internet scam, born long long time ago before bicoin, there was no connection between bitcoin and ponzi scam.

Other than Bitcointalk.org having a special section for promoting those ponzis, that is
1. Buy a trusted senior account.
2. Start a ponzi on Bitcointalk.
3. ? ? ?
4. Wonder why Bitcoin gets horrible press.

[hilariousandco]

It doesnt matter if he hides it or not, scam: n. A fraudulent business scheme; a swindle.  Its the definition of a scam, doesnt matter what, are you going to write a new dictionary?

You don't need to write a new dictionary. They also fall under the definition of gambling whether you like it or not:

    1.
    play games of chance for money; bet.
 
    2.
    take risky action in the hope of a desired result.

   

[Xialla]

1. Buy a trusted senior account.
2. Start a ponzi on Bitcointalk.
3. ? ? ?
4. Wonder why Bitcoin gets horrible press.

and this is exactly, what I meant by OP...anyway, it is not on me to decide, just saying there is imho huge negative impact to bitcoin generated by this section.

[XinXan]

1. Buy a trusted senior account.
2. Start a ponzi on Bitcointalk.
3. ? ? ?
4. Wonder why Bitcoin gets horrible press.

and this is exactly, what I meant by OP...anyway, it is not on me to decide, just saying there is imho huge negative impact to bitcoin generated by this section.

The problem is not the section, is allowing these kind of trash on the forum at all, just fucking ban every thread that promotes a ponzi, easy as that, no need for a section for it, but probably mods are going to come and say "its too hard to moderate all ponzies" or "we dont have time to delete all ponzies" wich is bullshit, i doubt it takes that much time to totally delete each of those ponzi threads

[Muhammed Zakir]

1. Buy a trusted senior account.
2. Start a ponzi on Bitcointalk.
3. ? ? ?
4. Wonder why Bitcoin gets horrible press.

and this is exactly, what I meant by OP...anyway, it is not on me to decide, just saying there is imho huge negative impact to bitcoin generated by this section.

The problem is not the section, is allowing these kind of trash on the forum at all, just fucking ban every thread that promotes a ponzi, easy as that, no need for a section for it, but probably mods are going to come and say "its too hard to moderate all ponzies" or "we dont have time to delete all ponzies" wich is bullshit, i doubt it takes that much time to totally delete each of those ponzi threads

There are cloud mining providers which are actually ponzi but they claim they ain't. If we start moderating ponzis, we will see more of these and it will be hard to differentiate scam and legitimate. Now, at least we know those are ponzis. What will happen if those come under new names and in different boards?

[XinXan]

1. Buy a trusted senior account.
2. Start a ponzi on Bitcointalk.
3. ? ? ?
4. Wonder why Bitcoin gets horrible press.

and this is exactly, what I meant by OP...anyway, it is not on me to decide, just saying there is imho huge negative impact to bitcoin generated by this section.

The problem is not the section, is allowing these kind of trash on the forum at all, just fucking ban every thread that promotes a ponzi, easy as that, no need for a section for it, but probably mods are going to come and say "its too hard to moderate all ponzies" or "we dont have time to delete all ponzies" wich is bullshit, i doubt it takes that much time to totally delete each of those ponzi threads

There are cloud mining providers which are actually ponzi but they claim they ain't. If we start moderating ponzis, we will see more of these and it will be hard to differentiate scam and legitimate. Now, at least we know those are ponzis. What will happen if those come under new names and in different boards?

Damn you always find a way to make them stay unmoderated, dont you, with you im refering to everyone. First of all, if you wanto cloud mine you ahould be doing it only on already trusted sites, how else can they even come like?? I dnt get your point at all.

[hilariousandco]

The problem is not the section, is allowing these kind of trash on the forum at all, just fucking ban every thread that promotes a ponzi, easy as that, no need for a section for it, but probably mods are going to come and say "its too hard to moderate all ponzies" or "we dont have time to delete all ponzies" wich is bullshit, i doubt it takes that much time to totally delete each of those ponzi threads

There are cloud mining providers which are actually ponzi but they claim they ain't. If we start moderating ponzis, we will see more of these and it will be hard to differentiate scam and legitimate. Now, at least we know those are ponzis. What will happen if those come under new names and in different boards?

This is exactly it. It's not really about being difficult to moderate or mods not having the time etc but if we ban them then they will just come back and hide under the cover of being legitimate operations, thus duping more people into investing not knowing what they truly are. If you don't like ponzis just don't go in that section, but it's there for people who want to gamble/invest/throw their money away on them.

[Muhammed Zakir]

1. Buy a trusted senior account.
2. Start a ponzi on Bitcointalk.
3. ? ? ?
4. Wonder why Bitcoin gets horrible press.

and this is exactly, what I meant by OP...anyway, it is not on me to decide, just saying there is imho huge negative impact to bitcoin generated by this section.

The problem is not the section, is allowing these kind of trash on the forum at all, just fucking ban every thread that promotes a ponzi, easy as that, no need for a section for it, but probably mods are going to come and say "its too hard to moderate all ponzies" or "we dont have time to delete all ponzies" wich is bullshit, i doubt it takes that much time to totally delete each of those ponzi threads

There are cloud mining providers which are actually ponzi but they claim they ain't. If we start moderating ponzis, we will see more of these and it will be hard to differentiate scam and legitimate. Now, at least we know those are ponzis. What will happen if those come under new names and in different boards?

Damn you always find a way to make them stay unmoderated, dont you, with you im refering to everyone. First of all, if you wanto cloud mine you ahould be doing it only on already trusted sites, how else can they even come like?? I dnt get your point at all.

Keep your eyes open! https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=878387.0

If what you said is rephrased: First of all, if you wan to invest, you should be doing it only on already trusted sites, how else can they even come like??

[XinXan]

The problem is not the section, is allowing these kind of trash on the forum at all, just fucking ban every thread that promotes a ponzi, easy as that, no need for a section for it, but probably mods are going to come and say "its too hard to moderate all ponzies" or "we dont have time to delete all ponzies" wich is bullshit, i doubt it takes that much time to totally delete each of those ponzi threads

There are cloud mining providers which are actually ponzi but they claim they ain't. If we start moderating ponzis, we will see more of these and it will be hard to differentiate scam and legitimate. Now, at least we know those are ponzis. What will happen if those come under new names and in different boards?

This is exactly it. It's not really about being difficult to moderate or mods not having the time etc but if we ban them then they will just come back and hide under the cover of being legitimate operations, thus duping more people into investing not knowing what they truly are. If you don't like ponzis just don't go in that section, but it's there for people who want to gamble/invest/throw their money away on them.

So having a section called "investors based games" its a better idea? What do you think a newbie thinks when he sees something like that, clicks it and see only threads like "double your money" "350% back in 2 days" etc etc. some of them would probably fall for it without knowing what a ponzi is, if you want to mantain the section, call it "Ponzis and other games that are going to run away with your money someday"

[doves]

The problem is not the section, is allowing these kind of trash on the forum at all, just fucking ban every thread that promotes a ponzi, easy as that, no need for a section for it, but probably mods are going to come and say "its too hard to moderate all ponzies" or "we dont have time to delete all ponzies" wich is bullshit, i doubt it takes that much time to totally delete each of those ponzi threads

There are cloud mining providers which are actually ponzi but they claim they ain't. If we start moderating ponzis, we will see more of these and it will be hard to differentiate scam and legitimate. Now, at least we know those are ponzis. What will happen if those come under new names and in different boards?

This is exactly it. It's not really about being difficult to moderate or mods not having the time etc but if we ban them then they will just come back and hide under the cover of being legitimate operations, thus duping more people into investing not knowing what they truly are. If you don't like ponzis just don't go in that section, but it's there for people who want to gamble/invest/throw their money away on them.

Are you saying that since we have a section dedicated to promoting ponzis, this somehow prevents bad actors from presenting ponzis as legitimate business?
By that logic, we should start a catchall section called "scamming and fraud," so the crooks could post there, and the rest of the forum would become 1000% legit.
Am I missing something?

[shorena]

Hey there,

I just want to ask you, if you think that we need this section on this forum and what is purpose? Concentrate scammers and frauds to one place?

Yes we need it, its purpose is to distinguish the ponzi style games from other forms of gambling. It is possible that these games are indeed that, a game. They are not provably fair, or at least I have not seen a variant that is, but that does not mean the operator is scamming.

In last couple of days, I start observing the section daily and spend couple of hours here. ALL (and yes, I'm not aware using word ALL here) threads here had just one purpose and it is steal people bitcoin, lure them to invest BTC and vanish.

Even you can say, that it is problem of those guys, which decided to invest..it is just throwing really bad impression to whole bitcoin, just because those scammed people are also real people from real world and they have to exchange their earned money to BTC. And then they lost them..and you know what. They will just say "bitcoin is scam" instead of "somebody scammed me". I really think that negative effect of this subsection is much higher then positive one (if there is any)
-snip-

You dont get into that section by accident, it has a big red warning attached to it. If that is not helping, banning those kind of games is neither.

Also, this way you can easily set in your profile to not see that area anymore, which you just reminded me to do  

wow really this is possible? so what about hide this section for all new acc and had some warning message before enabling it..?

also..how to make in invisible?

Blatantly censoring a section is not a good solution. If newbie dont know the section exists they can not make a choice.

-snip-
Because ponzi is the definition of scam, you can just search on wikipedia, it will tell you its a scam, if you search roulette or dice it doesnt say its a scam. Provably fair and odds, what are your odds on ponzies? Uncertain, no one knows, the owner could run any minute with your money.

Its like smoking, its bad and everyone knows it, yet people chose to do it, but that doesnt make it a good thing, it only makes them stupid

There are many luck based games where you can tell the odds in advance. Not knowing the odds does not equal scam. Gambling is not inherently bad, neither is smoking, both are only bad if you have no control over it. If you smoke once in a blue moon you are not living unhealthy. If you gamble recreational with small controlled amount and you are aware of the risks involved you are not an idiot.

Besides one should be able to make a deliberate choice to ruin oneself, be that through gambling or through drugs. Prohibition is not going to change what people do it is at best hindering the flow of information.

1. Buy a trusted senior account.
2. Start a ponzi cloud mining on Bitcointalk.
3. ? ? ?
4. Wonder why Bitcoin gets horrible press.

Lets get rid of the service section while we are at it.

1. Buy a trusted senior account.
2. Start a ponzi credit card fraud on Bitcointalk.
3. ? ? ?
4. Wonder why Bitcoin gets horrible press.

digital goods gone

1. Buy a trusted senior account.
2. Start a ponzi scam coin on Bitcointalk.
3. ? ? ?
4. Wonder why Bitcoin gets horrible press.

blow away the alt coin section. All hail the nanny state.

-snip-
The problem is not the section, is allowing these kind of trash on the forum at all, just fucking ban every thread that promotes a ponzi, easy as that, no need for a section for it, but probably mods are going to come and say "its too hard to moderate all ponzies" or "we dont have time to delete all ponzies" wich is bullshit, i doubt it takes that much time to totally delete each of those ponzi threads

The staff does not get involved in these matters. It would allow misuse and would result in a false sense of security for the users. This cloud mining site must be legit, the staff did not delete it yet.

-snip-
Damn you always find a way to make them stay unmoderated, dont you, with you im refering to everyone. First of all, if you wanto cloud mine you ahould be doing it only on already trusted sites, how else can they even come like?? I dnt get your point at all.

Are you going to decide who is trustworthy and who is not? Without fail, in advance, for everything?

[doves]

-snip-

1. Buy a trusted senior account.
2. Start a ponzi credit card fraud on Bitcointalk.
3. ? ? ?
4. Wonder why Bitcoin gets horrible press.

digital goods gone
-snip-

No, you got that exactly backwards. I'm saying that starting a "Credit Card Fraud" section on Bitcointalk is a bad idea.

According to "let's have a ponzi section" logic, we *should* start a "credit card fraud" section.
That way, all the credit card fraud will be gone from digital goods.
Rinse & repeat for your other points.

If you don't understand why having a section of Bitcointalk dedicated specifically to credit card fraud may not be wise from PR perspective, I can expand on that.

[shorena]

-snip-

1. Buy a trusted senior account.
2. Start a ponzi credit card fraud on Bitcointalk.
3. ? ? ?
4. Wonder why Bitcoin gets horrible press.

digital goods gone
-snip-

No, you got that exactly backwards. I'm saying that starting a "Credit Card Fraud" section on Bitcointalk is a bad idea.

According to "let's have a ponzi section" logic, is start a "credit card fraud" section.
That way, all the credit card fraud will be gone from digital goods.
Rinse & repeat for your other points.

You did not get it apparently. The equivalent is a gift card section, because there are so many gift card sales in digital goods that it makes the section useless for anything else. Fun fact: This actually has been requested for domain names several times in the past. Now you have a section for gift cards, but you dont know which seller is legit and which is not. Same with the ponzi games(!) section. There is a seperate section because of the high amount of traffic regarding this kind of gambling.

How do you seperate those running a game from those running with your coin? You can claim that they all will run and I would believe you, but you have to prove it.

[XinXan]

Well shorena, someone has to decide whats right and whats wrong, you cant be 100% accurate, of course not but because you cant doesnt mean you should let every scammer do whatever they want, by your logic default trust should be eliminated aswell, since how do we know that people who is on default list is 100% correct always when they mark someone as a scammer or red trust them? Are you willing to delete default trust?

[Muhammed Zakir]

Well shorena, someone has to decide whats right and whats wrong, you cant be 100% accurate, of course not but because you cant doesnt mean you should let every scammer do whatever they want, by your logic default trust should be eliminated aswell, since how do we know that people who is on default list is 100% correct always when they mark someone as a scammer or red trust them? Are you willing to delete default trust?

People in default trust list aren't 100% accurate but they are more accurate than others.

[shorena]

Well shorena, someone has to decide whats right and whats wrong, you cant be 100% accurate, of course not but because you cant doesnt mean you should let every scammer do whatever they want, by your logic default trust should be eliminated aswell, since how do we know that people who is on default list is 100% correct always when they mark someone as a scammer or red trust them? Are you willing to delete default trust?

Im certainly willing to discuss default trust issue in a thread for that, yes. No reason to distract from the topic at hand.
I am not asking for anyone to be 100% correct, you are. You want the scams removed, but keep the legit games. I dont know how you can decide that. I want everyone to make their own decision. Maybe <insert dice gambling site here> is a scam, there is no way to know in advance.

-snip-
If you don't understand why having a section of Bitcointalk dedicated specifically to credit card fraud may not be wise from PR perspective, I can expand on that.

Edits might not get seen, its probably best if you post from your main or sit out the waiting period. The section is not named ponzis go here for a reason. If those operating these sites are legit, its a legit form of gambling. Other forms of gambling e.g. dice sites that allow crowd investments have the same trust issues and can not be considered provably fair to the investor either.

[doves]

-snip-

1. Buy a trusted senior account.
2. Start a ponzi credit card fraud on Bitcointalk.
3. ? ? ?
4. Wonder why Bitcoin gets horrible press.

digital goods gone
-snip-

No, you got that exactly backwards. I'm saying that starting a "Credit Card Fraud" section on Bitcointalk is a bad idea.

According to "let's have a ponzi section" logic, is start a "credit card fraud" section.
That way, all the credit card fraud will be gone from digital goods.
Rinse & repeat for your other points.

You did not get it apparently. The equivalent is a gift card section, because there are so many gift card sales in digital goods that it makes the section useless for anything else. Fun fact: This actually has been requested for domain names several times in the past. Now you have a section for gift cards, but you dont know which seller is legit and which is not. Same with the ponzi games(!) section. There is a seperate section because of the high amount of traffic regarding this kind of gambling.

How do you seperate those running a game from those running with your coin? You can claim that they all will run and I would believe you, but you have to prove it.

You've suggested that existance of credit card fraud would mean deletion of the digital goods section.
I've pointed out that no, it wouldn't. It would only mean that we must start a "Credit Card Fraud" section.

Existance of ponzi schemes did not mean the end of the end of the digital goods section. On the contrary, it brought about the *creation of ponzi section*.

See the parallels?

In other words, if BADTHING exists, we should accomodate it by starting a new subforum for it.

As far as separating the good ponzis from the bad ponzis? How about we ban the good and the bad, just like they do everywhere else in the world?

This is a Bitcoin forum, about Bitcoin. A privite forum, not obligated to become a platform for every fucking scam that was ousted from the rest of the world.

[XinXan]

Well shorena, someone has to decide whats right and whats wrong, you cant be 100% accurate, of course not but because you cant doesnt mean you should let every scammer do whatever they want, by your logic default trust should be eliminated aswell, since how do we know that people who is on default list is 100% correct always when they mark someone as a scammer or red trust them? Are you willing to delete default trust?

Im certainly willing to discuss default trust issue in a thread for that, yes. No reason to distract from the topic at hand.
I am not asking for anyone to be 100% correct, you are. You want the scams removed, but keep the legit games. I dont know how you can decide that. I want everyone to make their own decision. Maybe <insert dice gambling site here> is a scam, there is no way to know in advance.

-snip-
If you don't understand why having a section of Bitcointalk dedicated specifically to credit card fraud may not be wise from PR perspective, I can expand on that.

Edits might not get seen, its probably best if you post from your main or sit out the waiting period. The section is not named ponzis go here for a reason. If those operating these sites are legit, its a legit form of gambling. Other forms of gambling e.g. dice sites that allow crowd investments have the same trust issues and can not be considered provably fair to the investor either.

How can mods decide who is posting constructive stuff and who is not? Because recently i have seen a lot of people banned complaining here, this has to do with the topic because mods answer for investor based games not being deleted is that it wouldnt be possible to identify those scams that are disguised as games, in my opinion it would be possible

[shorena]

-snip-
See the parallels?

In other words, if BADTHING exists, we should accomodate it by starting a new subforum for it.

How do you know its "BADTHING" and not "FORM OF GAMBLING"?

-snip-
How can mods decide who is posting constructive stuff and who is not?

Its subjective, but I think BadBear can judge whether a post is contributing to the discussion. If you cant stay on topic it makes no sense to keep this discussion going.

Because recently i have seen a lot of people banned complaining here, this has to do with the topic because mods answer for investor based games not being deleted is that it wouldnt be possible to identify those scams that are disguised as games, in my opinion it would be possible

How? How would you have told in advance that dice.ninja, hashie, etc. pp. was going to scam? Keep in mind that you are not asking for a users opinion, but for a staff enforced rule. Thus everyone else would blame you for their loss if you make a single bad prediction.

[doves]

-snip-
If you don't understand why having a section of Bitcointalk dedicated specifically to credit card fraud may not be wise from PR perspective, I can expand on that.

Edits might not get seen, its probably best if you post from your main or sit out the waiting period. The section is not named ponzis go here for a reason. If those operating these sites are legit, its a legit form of gambling. Other forms of gambling e.g. dice sites that allow crowd investments have the same trust issues and can not be considered provably fair to the investor either.

> its probably best if you post from your main
Don't worry about it.

>The section is not named ponzis go here for a reason.
What's the reason?

-snip-
See the parallels?

In other words, if BADTHING exists, we should accomodate it by starting a new subforum for it.

How do you know its "BADTHING" and not "FORM OF GAMBLING"?

Have we shifted the topic to discussing whether Ponzis are bad? Up until now I assumed that we're in agreement on that? If you wish, I could explain why ponzis are illegal in most of the civilized world.

[shorena]

-snip-
>The section is not named ponzis go here for a reason.
What's the reason?

They are games based on an "investment", a form of PvP gambling. A ponzi is not openly telling you that it is one, it will try to hide the fact that they do nothing but moving funds around until the very end. A ponzi is by definition a scam, but its based on secrecy. Same with the gift cards, you cant tell in advance which ones are carded and which not.

-snip-

-snip-

How do you know its "BADTHING" and not "FORM OF GAMBLING"?

Have we shifted the topic to discussing whether Ponzis are bad? Up until now I assumed that we're in agreement on that? If you wish, I could explain why ponzis are illegal in most of the civilized world.

No, I agree that a ponzi is bad. I would also not play the games in this section, but I will defend the right to play them for those that want to. If you cant see the difference between the game based on a ponzi principle and a straight ponzi I understand you, because I had problems understanding this concept at first as well.

[Xialla]

shorena thanks for insight and I agree here:

1* we should not censorship some sections to newbies

2* is good, that we had all this shit on one place.

with this in my mind, actually makes more sense to leave as is, I'm just pissed to see guys daily loosing BTC here, that's all..

[SaltySpitoon]

Scam: (transitive) to swindle (someone) by means of a trick

No one here is being tricked. If you know what the word Ponzi means, and you invest in a site named Ponzi, is that not willingly investing and not being tricked? I agree that Gambling sites are the exact same thing, you just play them in different ways. Provably fair and such are just buzz words. It doesn't mean that the odds are fair, it just means that they give you the odds, and you agree to those odds before playing. Traditional casinos and such aren't a scam, but they aren't provably fair.

I don't see why people want to censor things rather than just allow people to use their own judgement. I agree that hidden ponzi schemes are a scam, but all of these just come right out and say they are ponzis, no false expectations, no tricks, not a scam. If someone puts money in and get burnt, what is the difference between then putting money into a dice game and losing? And before you say odds, just because Ponzis don't have published odds, doesn't mean that you can't calculate your own odds.

[XinXan]

Scam: (transitive) to swindle (someone) by means of a trick

No one here is being tricked. If you know what the word Ponzi means, and you invest in a site named Ponzi, is that not willingly investing and not being tricked? I agree that Gambling sites are the exact same thing, you just play them in different ways. Provably fair and such are just buzz words. It doesn't mean that the odds are fair, it just means that they give you the odds, and you agree to those odds before playing. Traditional casinos and such aren't a scam, but they aren't provably fair.

I don't see why people want to censor things rather than just allow people to use their own judgement. I agree that hidden ponzi schemes are a scam, but all of these just come right out and say they are ponzis, no false expectations, no tricks, not a scam. If someone puts money in and get burnt, what is the difference between then putting money into a dice game and losing? And before you say odds, just because Ponzis don't have published odds, doesn't mean that you can't calculate your own odds.

So if i come here and say im going to launch a lottery, 0.01 each ticket, if you get lucky you might win 1 bitcoin but im not going to tell you the odds and it is not certain if anyone will win. Thats not a scam to you because i stated clearly how it works?

[dogie]

It doesnt matter if he hides it or not, scam: n. A fraudulent business scheme; a swindle.  Its the definition of a scam, doesnt matter what, are you going to write a new dictionary?

You don't need to write a new dictionary. They also fall under the definition of gambling whether you like it or not:

    1.
    play games of chance for money; bet.
 
    2.
    take risky action in the hope of a desired result.

   

This is also how I feel about casinos v HYIPs on bct. We are unable to vouch for any legitimacy for an online bitcoin based casino because there is no guarantee that its not just going to alt + F4 away with deposits after a while, which is exactly the same with a HYIP. Considering gambling vs scams IRL is entirely different because that 40 story casino isn't suddenly going to grow legs and try and walk away with your deposit.

Or I hope not. Although that would make a good Godzilla sequel plot.

[Keyser Soze]

So if i come here and say im going to launch a lottery, 0.01 each ticket, if you get lucky you might win 1 bitcoin but im not going to tell you the odds and it is not certain if anyone will win. Thats not a scam to you because i stated clearly how it works?

If you don't state the odds or how a winner is chosen, then you are not clearly stating how it works.

[doves]

-snip-
>The section is not named ponzis go here for a reason.
What's the reason?

They are games based on an "investment", a form of PvP gambling. A ponzi is not openly telling you that it is one, it will try to hide the fact that they do nothing but moving funds around until the very end. A ponzi is by definition a scam, but its based on secrecy. Same with the gift cards, you cant tell in advance which ones are carded and which not.

-snip-

-snip-

How do you know its "BADTHING" and not "FORM OF GAMBLING"?

Have we shifted the topic to discussing whether Ponzis are bad? Up until now I assumed that we're in agreement on that? If you wish, I could explain why ponzis are illegal in most of the civilized world.

No, I agree that a ponzi is bad. I would also not play the games in this section, but I will defend the right to play them for those that want to. If you cant see the difference between the game based on a ponzi principle and a straight ponzi I understand you, because I had problems understanding this concept at first as well.

This is a forum about Bitcoin, the revolutionary currency that's changing the world.
As someone has previously mentioned in this thread, ponzi schemes have been around long before Bitcoin, and Bitcoin has no more to do with them than does fiat.

Which begs the question: How is it that fiat financial forums don't have sections dedicated to gambling and ponzis, but we do? What, exactly, are we suggesting here?

Let me give you an analogy.
Let's say I run an investment firm, and a kid's selling crack to crackwhores on my stoop. When I ask him to move along, you appear & tell me that the kid's running a perfectly legitimate business: crackwhores need crack, and he fills that need. I respond by pointing out that, being an overly concerned with appearances shallow banker type, I feel that rockstahs scoring crack on my stoop may cast a somewhat downmarket tint on my otherwise upscale investment firm, and may play a part in the less-than-stellar coverage given my financial institution by the mainstream press.

I further point out that the kid's free to sell his wares anywhere but on my stoop, because I'm superficial enough to believe that appearances count.

Get it?

[XinXan]

So if i come here and say im going to launch a lottery, 0.01 each ticket, if you get lucky you might win 1 bitcoin but im not going to tell you the odds and it is not certain if anyone will win. Thats not a scam to you because i stated clearly how it works?

If you don't state the odds or how a winner is chosen, then you are not clearly stating how it works.

Well shit, isnt that how ponzies work?? Even when they state that you may not be paid or he may just run with your money, he never tells you when or the odds you have of winning or loosing, thats my point exactly..

[SaltySpitoon]

So if i come here and say im going to launch a lottery, 0.01 each ticket, if you get lucky you might win 1 bitcoin but im not going to tell you the odds and it is not certain if anyone will win. Thats not a scam to you because i stated clearly how it works?

Well, I don't think anyone would give you any money in that case. The same should be true of a ponzi that acts similar. If you actually read any ponzi schemes, they tend to have payout amounts, dates, etc. The odds are dynamic, not unknown.

In your situation, no I don't think its a scam, unless you intend on scamming in the first place. People are welcome to throw away their money if they want. Its their decision.

[Nowi]

Its good section. Ok not for people who do not want to risk any amount of bitcoins, but you can ignore them then. But protect newbies from that sections is good think.

[Keyser Soze]

If you don't state the odds or how a winner is chosen, then you are not clearly stating how it works.

Well shit, isnt that how ponzies work?? Even when they state that you may not be paid or he may just run with your money, he never tells you when or the odds you have of winning or loosing, thats my point exactly..

Not necessarily, there are some ponzi "games" that are upfront that they are a ponzi and clearly state the rules of the game. If the operator is honest and follows the rules of the game, then it is not a scam. The problem is that there is no way to make them provably fair and an honest ponzi game may look identical to a ponzi game where the operator is cheating against the players.

The investor-based games sub-section was created because the gambling section was flooded with these types of games. Without this section, they would just flood the main gambling section again.

[tidus1097]

If you don't state the odds or how a winner is chosen, then you are not clearly stating how it works.

Well shit, isnt that how ponzies work?? Even when they state that you may not be paid or he may just run with your money, he never tells you when or the odds you have of winning or loosing, thats my point exactly..

Not necessarily, there are some ponzi "games" that are upfront that they are a ponzi and clearly state the rules of the game. If the operator is honest and follows the rules of the game, then it is not a scam. The problem is that there is no way to make them provably fair and an honest ponzi game may look identical to a ponzi game where the operator is cheating against the players.

The investor-based games sub-section was created because the gambling section was flooded with these types of games. Without this section, they would just flood the main gambling section again.

At least its all contained to once place in the forum. If it wasn't for this, you forget how people would try to advertise a ponzi or a investor based game like btc-flow and those type of games. Generally gambling comes with a certain risk anyways and if you don't follow the general pro quo, Never gamble more than you can afford to lose, you will probably end up hating yourself in return. I look at it like this. With a casino you have a general base of rules that must be followed and met. With a ponzi, you have those as well, but you have to factor in whether the operator is legit or not. So that's a gamble in itself.

[RussianRaibow]

If you don't state the odds or how a winner is chosen, then you are not clearly stating how it works.

Well shit, isnt that how ponzies work?? Even when they state that you may not be paid or he may just run with your money, he never tells you when or the odds you have of winning or loosing, thats my point exactly..

Not necessarily, there are some ponzi "games" that are upfront that they are a ponzi and clearly state the rules of the game. If the operator is honest and follows the rules of the game, then it is not a scam. The problem is that there is no way to make them provably fair and an honest ponzi game may look identical to a ponzi game where the operator is cheating against the players.

The investor-based games sub-section was created because the gambling section was flooded with these types of games. Without this section, they would just flood the main gambling section again.

At least its all contained to once place in the forum. If it wasn't for this, you forget how people would try to advertise a ponzi or a investor based game like btc-flow and those type of games. Generally gambling comes with a certain risk anyways and if you don't follow the general pro quo, Never gamble more than you can afford to lose, you will probably end up hating yourself in return. I look at it like this. With a casino you have a general base of rules that must be followed and met. With a ponzi, you have those as well, but you have to factor in whether the operator is legit or not. So that's a gamble in itself.

+1

Very well summarized... especially the bold part.

[XinXan]

If you don't state the odds or how a winner is chosen, then you are not clearly stating how it works.

Well shit, isnt that how ponzies work?? Even when they state that you may not be paid or he may just run with your money, he never tells you when or the odds you have of winning or loosing, thats my point exactly..

Not necessarily, there are some ponzi "games" that are upfront that they are a ponzi and clearly state the rules of the game. If the operator is honest and follows the rules of the game, then it is not a scam. The problem is that there is no way to make them provably fair and an honest ponzi game may look identical to a ponzi game where the operator is cheating against the players.

The investor-based games sub-section was created because the gambling section was flooded with these types of games. Without this section, they would just flood the main gambling section again.

At least its all contained to once place in the forum. If it wasn't for this, you forget how people would try to advertise a ponzi or a investor based game like btc-flow and those type of games. Generally gambling comes with a certain risk anyways and if you don't follow the general pro quo, Never gamble more than you can afford to lose, you will probably end up hating yourself in return. I look at it like this. With a casino you have a general base of rules that must be followed and met. With a ponzi, you have those as well, but you have to factor in whether the operator is legit or not. So that's a gamble in itself.

+1

Very well summarized... especially the bold part.

Then again, and i have said this 4 times already, casinos tell you your odss, ponzies dont because there are no odds, you might just deposit 0.02 and if no one deposits 0.02 you lose and thats it end of the game. As someone said, lers make a section for each type of scam since scammers would go there to advertise their scam right?

[tss]

it's better to keep them to one section rather than allow it to spread all over the forum.. i dont visit that section but im glad it is there to categorize the scams to one place that i wont visit.

[shorena]

-snip-
Get it?

All I understood is that you are apparently unable to argue. Your parables makes no sense as they are none. You try to project your assumptions that the games are scams into them which render them useless. Repeating the same boring and tiresome dance is useless. Maybe our next discussion will make do without these.

[doves]

^
No, shorena, you're mistaken, I've never suggested that ponzis are scams.
The nice story about the crackdealer on my stoop describes a fair and decent crack dealer. The kid don't scam, the crackwhores really do give head, so they're providing a service.

My only objection is to all this fairness happening right on my stoop--crackwhores are not the desired demographic of my financial firm. It scares the customers away by allowing them to (unsoundly) assume that my investment firm is, in some way, related to selling rock to whores. "If you got nothing to do with crackwhores, why are they sucking the D, glass and otherwise, right in your lobby, why in the world did you set up a shop for them?" my clients ask me.

And there I stand, shorena, blushing. Unable to explain why I set up a section for promoting ponzis in my forum about Bitcoin (which has nothing to do with ponzis).

Finally, I'm not arguing with you, shorena. I'm just explaining the obvious: that having a gambling section on Bitcointalk is embarrassing enough, but having two gambling sections? Why, ffs?

-snip-
I don't see why people want to censor things rather than just allow people to use their own judgement.
-snip-

Unsure about OP, but I don't want to censor anything. On the contrary, there's nothing fair about ghettoizing fair ponzis. They have a right to compete with other fair gambling games, on a level playing field.

Edited for typos

[Muhammed Zakir]

-snip-
Fnally, I'm not arguing with you, shorena. I'm just explaining the obvious: that having a gambling section on Bitcointalk is embarrassing enough, but having two gambling sections? Why, ffs?
 -snip-

To filter ponzis/HYIPs and similar from gambling and it's discussion.

[doves]

^To what end? If ponzis are gambling, why subjugate them to a subforum? AFAIK, dice games don't have a special sub, neither does poker.

And I'm still at a loss re. legacy finance forums not having sections dedicated to promotion of ponzis, or ones selling warez. Could you opine on the matter?

-snip-
But seriously, people are way better off with their own forums. Then you don't have to deal with someone else's rules. We don't have the resources nor desire to cater to the Alt Coin ponzi communities. Bitcointalk offers a basic board for people to make their announcement, find their community members, and then migrate to a place where they can discuss uninterrupted by others.

[Muhammed Zakir]

^To what end? If ponzis are gambling, why subjugate them to a subforum? AFAIK, dice games don't have a special sub, neither does poker.

The Gambling board was cluttered with ponzi/HYIP threads. To avoid this, a new board was created. Search "ponzi" in Meta and you can see many threads suggesting to create new board. Number of dice games and/or poker threads aren't high as ponzis/HYIPs were/are.

And I'm still at a loss re. legacy finance forums not having sections dedicated to promotion of ponzis, or ones selling warez. Could you opine on the matter?

-snip-
But seriously, people are way better off with their own forums. Then you don't have to deal with someone else's rules. We don't have the resources nor desire to cater to the Alt Coin ponzi communities. Bitcointalk offers a basic board for people to make their announcement, find their community members, and then migrate to a place where they can discuss uninterrupted by others.

I am not an expert in this, so I can't comment. Two things I am sure are ponzis/HYIPs is illegal and theymos doesn't do anything silly. There must be some lawys which allows a dedicated board for ponzis/HYIPs in a forum.

[doves]

>I am not an expert in this, so I can't comment.

No, you're not an expert, Muhammed Zakir, which never stopped you from spamming before. Because your shit sig ad makes you a few satoshi each time you post.

If you didn't have mod dick in your mouth, all the time, you would have been banned a long time ago. But mod dick needs sucking, so you're still here.

I'll now politely ask you to stop posting in this thread. Thanks.

[Nextgen]

if Investor-based games section removed then they will start posting thread about their ponzi site everywhere in forum
its better to keep all the ponzi in one section the all over the forum

[doves]

if Investor-based games section removed then they will start posting thread about their ponzi site everywhere in forum
its better to keep all the ponzi in one section the all over the forum

Just how helpless are we? I don't see drugs or CP being sold on this forum, why is that?
Going by your logic, we should create "CP" & "Drugs & Guns" sections, to keep the forum from being overrun.

[Keyser Soze]

Just how helpless are we? I don't see drugs or CP being sold on this forum, why is that?

I'd assume theymos wouldn't want the site shut down and/or face other legal issues.

Going by your logic, we should create "CP" & "Drugs & Guns" sections, to keep the forum from being overrun.

The gambling section was being overrun with ponzi-style games, there was a need to have them separated from more traditional gambling. Please point out where the forum is being overrun with CP, drugs and guns.

[doves]

>I'd assume theymos wouldn't want the site shut down and/or face other legal issues.
Perhaps, but AFAIK promoting unregistered securities & unlicensed online gambling is not strictly legal in US either, is it?

>Please point out where the forum is being overrun with CP, drugs and guns.
My point precisely. The forum is not being overrun by CP, drug & gun sales, without subforums being created for any of that. Because against forum policy.

Bitcointalk is not about providing a platform for degenerate gamblers, it's about discussion and promotion of Bitcoin. Having Bitcoin associated with ponzis is bad for Bitcoin. Promoting ponzis on Bitcointalk is bad for Bitcoin. This is prima facie shit, the fact that I need to explain this is, frankly, worrying.

This forum is not powerless at policing its policies. Millions of dollars were donated to Bitcointalk (not millions at the time of donation, but thanks to BTC price increase). If you feel that's not enough to pay for forum moderation, I guess I got nothing.

[erikalui]

>I'd assume theymos wouldn't want the site shut down and/or face other legal issues.
Perhaps, but AFAIK promoting unregistered securities & unlicensed online gambling is not strictly legal in US either, is it?

>Please point out where the forum is being overrun with CP, drugs and guns.
My point precisely. The forum is not being overrun by CP, drug & gun sales, without subforums being created for any of that. Because against forum policy.

Bitcointalk is not about providing a platform for degenerate gamblers, it's about discussion and promotion of Bitcoin. Having Bitcoin associated with ponzis is bad for Bitcoin. Promoting ponzis on Bitcointalk is bad for Bitcoin. This is prima facie shit, the fact that I need to explain this is, frankly, worrying.

This forum is not powerless at policing its policies. Millions of dollars were donated to Bitcointalk (not millions at the time of donation, but thanks to BTC price increase). If you feel that's not enough to pay for forum moderation, I guess I got nothing.

I agree with you. Bitcoin being associated with Gambling and Ponzis is bad for bitcoin as well as bitcoiners. I thought of suggesting these sections to be shut down but I knew that nobody would support me. Their reasons would be, people are sensible enough to know what is a ponzi or casino, the members would advertise through other means on the forum, they would message members to invest in ponzis, the forum doesn't take responsibility of any scams and so on. The discussion again comes to square one and for me since BCT is so far the most popular bitcoin forums, it's sad that it supports these sections which is simply for money laundering. Bitcoins being anonymous makes it a victim to these ponzi websites and casinos.

[Keyser Soze]

>I'd assume theymos wouldn't want the site shut down and/or face other legal issues.
Perhaps, but AFAIK promoting unregistered securities & unlicensed online gambling is not strictly legal in US either, is it?

>Please point out where the forum is being overrun with CP, drugs and guns.
My point precisely. The forum is not being overrun by CP, drug & gun sales, without subforums being created for any of that. Because against forum policy.

Bitcointalk is not about providing a platform for degenerate gamblers, it's about discussion and promotion of Bitcoin. Having Bitcoin associated with ponzis is bad for Bitcoin. Promoting ponzis on Bitcointalk is bad for Bitcoin. This is prima facie shit, the fact that I need to explain this is, frankly, worrying.

This forum is not powerless at policing its policies. Millions of dollars were donated to Bitcointalk (not millions at the time of donation, but thanks to BTC price increase). If you feel that's not enough to pay for forum moderation, I guess I got nothing.

Historically the site has taken the stance of moderating content as little as possible and really I do not see that changing. Obviously, they cannot allow some topics (such as CP) for legal reasons. Could the gambling and securities sections be a legal risk for the forum/theymos? Perhaps, but (given those sections existence) it is obviously something that is currently deemed acceptable.

As a side note, you can actually sell guns on this forum as long as you are doing it in a legal manner. For example, if you were in the US, you have to post that it is a FFL to FFL US only sale.

[doves]

>Historically the site has taken the stance of moderating content as little as possible and really I do not see that changing.


I guess I'm still not making myself clear: There's a difference between not moderating content & enabling/prompoting/fascilitating it.

Letting Neo-Nazis march down our street: Hands-off approach; freedoms.

Building a clubhouse for Neo-Nazis in our town hall & promoting it in our town newspaper? Fucked up, and makes our town look retarded.

Apologies, Mr. Godwin, but when obvious shit like "promoting ponzis makes Bitcoin look bad" needs to be explained, I'm running out of absurdities to reach for.