US government is still confiscating private gold

[Severian]

PHILADELPHIA—A federal judge ruled that the U.S. Mint may keep 10 rare gold coins seized from the heirs of a Philadelphia coin dealer who obtained them decades ago under uncertain circumstances.

U.S. District Judge Legrome D. Davis said in an Aug. 29 opinion that the 1933 "Double Eagle" coins—which have a face value of $20 apiece but are now worth millions of dollars—"remain the property of the United States" and "were not lawfully removed" from the U.S. Mint in Philadelphia...

online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390443589304577633552754096444.html

[myrkul]

PHILADELPHIA—A federal judge ruled that the U.S. Mint may keep 10 rare gold coins seized from the heirs of a Philadelphia coin dealer who obtained them decades ago under uncertain circumstances.

U.S. District Judge Legrome D. Davis said in an Aug. 29 opinion that the 1933 "Double Eagle" coins—which have a face value of $20 apiece but are now worth millions of dollars—"remain the property of the United States" and "were not lawfully removed" from the U.S. Mint in Philadelphia...

online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390443589304577633552754096444.html

It's not confiscation if you're reclaiming stolen property.

Not saying they wouldn't do it, just that this is not one of those instances.

[Severian]

It's not confiscation if you're reclaiming stolen property.

Not saying they wouldn't do it, just that this is not one of those instances.

The larger point is that the claim for either side wasn't proven clearly, yet the government seized it anyway.

[myrkul]

It's not confiscation if you're reclaiming stolen property.

Not saying they wouldn't do it, just that this is not one of those instances.

The larger point is that the claim for either side wasn't proven clearly, yet the government seized it anyway.

Well, someone says you stole something, you probably should be able to prove you didn't.

[Severian]

Well, someone says you stole something, you probably should be able to prove you didn't.

The family didn't believe it stolen. That's why they brought the coins to the attention of the Feds themselves.

The actual lessons of this story are to 1. never let the government know you're holding metals and 2. the government will always win on its own turf: the courts.

[myrkul]

Well, someone says you stole something, you probably should be able to prove you didn't.

The family didn't believe it stolen. That's why they brought the coins to the attention of the Feds themselves.

The actual lessons of this story are to 1. never let the government know you're holding metals and 2. the government will always win on its own turf: the courts.

Now those, I agree with.

[myrkul]

It's not confiscation if you're reclaiming stolen property.

Not saying they wouldn't do it, just that this is not one of those instances.

The larger point is that the claim for either side wasn't proven clearly, yet the government seized it anyway.

Well, someone says you stole something, you probably should be able to prove you didn't.

Innocent until presumed guilty?

Well, who would you believe?

"We can prove he stole them, but they went missing about the time he quit."

or

"I can't prove I didn't steal them, but I bought them about the time they say I stole them."

[Severian]

Innocent until presumed guilty?

Modern jurisprudence looks a little like the old Inquisition legal theory. : )

[Severian]

Well, who would you believe?

"We can prove he stole them, but they went missing about the time he quit."

or

"I can't prove I didn't steal them, but I bought them about the time they say I stole them."

It's just my own bias, but I never believe a government unless it can document things with irrefutable proof.

As all the parties involved in the original transaction are dead and the government couldn't prove its case beyond the shadow of a doubt, it seems like old fashioned theft-by-decree was committed on private parties by the State.

[fcmatt]

as a coin collector i know this story pretty well.

to create a title that is as inflammatory as the one you did shows that you are either
ignorant of the coin's history or just wanted to troll a bit to see who would bite.

the govt's case was basically that every one of these coins should have been melted
and never released from the mint.

the langborns did not make a good enough case on how Mr Switt came into possession of them.
Switt transferred them to the Langborns way back then. Switt was a jeweler.

Switt more then likely had a buddy in the alcoholic mint worker by the name of McCann. Or a bribe
to McCann to give older double eagles for the 33s.

Sooo in the end the govt won. They have been actively going after these 33s for decades.
Yes.. neither party had rock solid proof one way or another.. but a jury decided for the govt and
I am sure the Langborns will appeal.

[Severian]

as a coin collector i know this story pretty well.

I defer to your knowledge but I do have a question.

The mint cashier was legally allowed to disburse these coins until December, 1993, yes?

[fcmatt]

as a coin collector i know this story pretty well.

I defer to your knowledge but I do have a question.

The mint cashier was legally allowed to disburse these coins until December, 1993, yes?

March 4th to April 5th is one expert's opinion of the possible window for it to have taken place.
It is a very interesting time frame. I refer you to this article:

http://www.coinweek.com/featured-news/coin-rarities-related-topics-the-fate-of-ten-switt-langbord-1933-double-eagles-20-gold-coins/

Everyone is welcome to their own opinion on this subject as it appears there is nothing that
will sway everyone in one direction.

[Severian]

Everyone is welcome to their own opinion on this subject as it appears there is nothing that
will sway everyone in one direction.

Thanks for the link. I'll check it out.

This era fascinates me as I perceive it as the time when the Banking interests were consolidating their hold on the American economy. That the State is still taking
people's metal based on an authoritarian law from 1933 shows that much of that hold still continues today.

[fcmatt]

Everyone is welcome to their own opinion on this subject as it appears there is nothing that
will sway everyone in one direction.

Thanks for the link. I'll check it out.

This era fascinates me as I perceive it as the time when the Banking interests were consolidating their hold on the American economy. That the State is still taking
people's metal based on an authoritarian law from 1933 shows that much of that hold still continues today.

What is odd is that the govt has a thing for these 33s yet allow other coins that should have never
been released from the mint trade freely among the collecting community. Patterns, 1913 lib nickels,
1804 silver dollars, etc...

But even during that time frame they allowed collector gold coins to be retained by the owners of the time.
So that would be older gold coins from 17xx-18xx time frame as well as earlier non-US pieces.

But I disagree it was the laws from 1933 driving this. It is something they have been chasing since the
1940s easy when it comes to these 33s. They really really dislike them being out there. The rest they
seem not to care about.

With this decision the heavy hitters in the coin world now worry about owning some coins that could
potentially be reclaimed by the govt one day if they so desire.

[myrkul]

With this decision the heavy hitters in the coin world now worry about owning some coins that could
potentially be reclaimed by the govt one day if they so desire.

Sell 'em offshore and buy an ingot.

[fcmatt]

With this decision the heavy hitters in the coin world now worry about owning some coins that could
potentially be reclaimed by the govt one day if they so desire.

Sell 'em offshore and buy an ingot.

You might as well tell a collector to trade his prized coin for a beanie baby.... Unless of course the ingot is from san fran and the year and mark is 1853 or what have you :-)

[Severian]

But I disagree it was the laws from 1933 driving this. It is something they have been chasing since the
1940s easy when it comes to these 33s. They really really dislike them being out there. The rest they
seem not to care about.

The 1940's-onward chase of these coins is based on the laws that came out of the FDR era. There aren't any other orders to base their cases on.

With this decision the heavy hitters in the coin world now worry about owning some coins that could
potentially be reclaimed by the govt one day if they so desire.

Which brings us back to why we're on this board. : )

[fcmatt]

But I disagree it was the laws from 1933 driving this. It is something they have been chasing since the
1940s easy when it comes to these 33s. They really really dislike them being out there. The rest they
seem not to care about.

The 1940's-onward chase of these coins is based on the laws that came out of the FDR era. There aren't any other orders to base their cases on.

With this decision the heavy hitters in the coin world now worry about owning some coins that could
potentially be reclaimed by the govt one day if they so desire.

Which brings us back to why we're on this board. : )

I see what you meant by fdr now. I misunderstood. But keep in mind they are not chasing down 33 eagles.... Just double eagles which should not have been released according to the govt due to the timing of things. So a lack of records appears to be the core problem.. Not really the laws. 33 eagles have proof but not the doubles.

[Severian]

I see what you meant by fdr now. I misunderstood. But keep in mind they are not chasing down 33 eagles.... Just double eagles which should not have been released according to the govt due to the timing of things. So a lack of records appears to be the core problem.. Not really the laws. 33 eagles have proof but not the doubles.

The government claim isn't backed up by the history books. These were legal coins until December, 1933 when Treasury ordered Americans to turn in their gold in exchange for pretty green paper. It's not lack of records that's the problem. It's the government not being able to prove something but seizing contested property anyway.

And you're right, they do seem to have a weird fixation for these particular coins.

[myrkul]

With this decision the heavy hitters in the coin world now worry about owning some coins that could
potentially be reclaimed by the govt one day if they so desire.

Sell 'em offshore and buy an ingot.

You might as well tell a collector to trade his prized coin for a beanie baby.... Unless of course the ingot is from san fran and the year and mark is 1853 or what have you :-)

Sentimental value on a hunk of metal....

I guess I'll never understand some people. Excuse me while I dust my D&D minis.