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Author Topic: The mandatory fee is too big for microtransactions  (Read 2389 times)
hazek
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May 30, 2011, 04:51:17 PM
 #1

It's just too big. I have only 2.5 BTC in my possession and I read this article that I liked so I wanted to donate a small ammount of 0.03BTC which is around 25 cents USD and now because there's this stupid 0.01 mandatory fee I'm just not going to donate anything.

Freaking fix this.

My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right)

If however you enjoyed my post: 15j781DjuJeVsZgYbDVt2NZsGrWKRWFHpp
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JA37
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May 30, 2011, 04:59:13 PM
 #2

Isn't that fee only for anything smaller than 0.01?

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Thanks to the anonymous person who doubled my BTC wealth by sending 0.02 BTC to: 1BSGbFq4G8r3uckpdeQMhP55ScCJwbvNnG
codemojo
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May 30, 2011, 05:05:27 PM
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Seems the minimum fee is going to be lowered to 0.0005 BTC: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/218

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May 30, 2011, 05:05:38 PM
 #4

Depends on the client installed. usually anything below 0.01btc will get a min charge of 0.01 resulting in that tiny amount being wiped out.

The only way to avoidvthis is to use a central service that allows this.

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carbonpenguin
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May 30, 2011, 05:11:58 PM
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I've been able to send w/o fees in my 0.3.21 beta client. The trick I found is to enter "0.03", not ".03". It sent the former just fine, but the latter it declared to need a tx fee.
Dobrodav
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May 30, 2011, 05:18:27 PM
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? My transactions with 0.0005 fee  processed fine  just now.

We will  meet in not-so-distant future.
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hazek
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May 30, 2011, 05:21:30 PM
 #7

I have the 3.21-beta client, is there a newer version I should be using?

EDIT: Well guess not because I just redownloaded and reinstalled the official newest version from www.bitcoin.org and when I try to send 0.03 I get a popup saying "This transaction is over the size limit. You can still send it for a fee of 0.01, which goes to the nodes that process your transaction and helps to support the network. Do you want to pay the fee?" where it gives me a yes or no option and if I click no, it cancels the transaction.

My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right)

If however you enjoyed my post: 15j781DjuJeVsZgYbDVt2NZsGrWKRWFHpp
Dobrodav
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May 30, 2011, 05:35:16 PM
 #8

Due to some bug in GUI of client. I am never saw the field for fee. Its cut off. I am always set fee through bitcoin.conf. It`s not a big problem, so i am never report it.
EDIT: But i never sent really small transactions, my lowest is 0.1 btc. So maybe i am not much of help.

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markm
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May 30, 2011, 05:41:27 PM
 #9

This is why I came up with BitNickels to use for nickel and diming people and for tips and so on.

By trying to keep the value down around US$0.07 per BitNickel (about what an old U.S. nickel actually made of nickel was supposedly worth back when I came up with them) I hoped that whatever default fee the bitcoin software normally likes to collect would, when the software is used with BitNickels instead of Bitcoins, be a more reasonable fee level for microtransactions.

The idea is that they ought not be hoarded trying to increase their value, they ought to be spent so they can be re-used, since its possible 21 million nickels might actually be quite a small supply. (But if so, maybe time for BitDimes and BitPennies to be introduced?)

-MarkM-

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Gavin Andresen
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May 30, 2011, 06:51:54 PM
 #10

Bitcoin isn't suited for transactions worth less than about one US penny-- it wasn't designed or intended for lots of micro-transactions.

That said, building a micro-transaction system on top of bitcoin is certainly possibly (see witcoin or youtipit for some examples-- or see the way the Bitcoin Faucet is handling payments recently, bundling up lots of small transactions to send them without paying outrageous fees).

How often do you get the chance to work on a potentially world-changing project?
hazek
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May 30, 2011, 07:18:18 PM
 #11

Well isn't there a way to change this and be more micro-transactions oriented? Shouldn't we strive for a higher convenience?

I'll give you an example:
If I'm walking down a street and see a street musician and I like the music I'm far more likely to reach into my pocket and throw him a quarter or something then I am if I have to go 2 streets out of my way to find an ATM, then find someone to trade me some change and then find the musicians agent who is another 3 streets out of my way and collects his tips.

I understand the reason why those fees are there, but isn't there a way to change this system so that all I have to do is c/p someones address and throw them a quarter without paying more then a cent or two?

My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right)

If however you enjoyed my post: 15j781DjuJeVsZgYbDVt2NZsGrWKRWFHpp
Littleshop
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May 30, 2011, 07:49:50 PM
 #12

Seems the minimum fee is going to be lowered to 0.0005 BTC: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/218

That is a good number for micro-transactions for now.  That works out to be less then half a penny.  Compared to alternative financial systems that is an amazingly low number.  Remember, you could send .02 BTC for free which is about 16 cents.

MoonShadow
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May 30, 2011, 07:52:47 PM
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I understand the reason why those fees are there, but isn't there a way to change this system so that all I have to do is c/p someones address and throw them a quarter without paying more then a cent or two?

You can do that now.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
FooDSt4mP
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May 30, 2011, 08:04:16 PM
 #14

Seems the minimum fee is going to be lowered to 0.0005 BTC: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/218

This.  Install the release candidate for 0.3.22 if you can't wait for the release.

As we slide down the banister of life, this is just another splinter in our ass.
Ricochet
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May 30, 2011, 08:20:23 PM
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or see the way the Bitcoin Faucet is handling payments recently, bundling up lots of small transactions to send them without paying outrageous fees).

Please check your code for this.  I can't tell for certain, but I think it's sending people multiple payments.  My client is showing 3 receipts of 0.02 BTC last night instead of the single one I was expecting.  I used an old address though instead of a new one (the one in my sig in fact, if you want to search BlockExplorer for it), so I can't be certain that they came from the faucet.  
markm
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May 30, 2011, 09:28:30 PM
 #16

That new lower fee is what, 50,000 satoshis (the smallest unit / last decimal)?

It just makes sense that a heavyweight international reserve currency with massive security infrastructure, 24/7 watchdogs all over the world and so on is likely to work out more expensive than a throwaway to change jars tip jars buskers local liquor store alc-ies small-change currency suitable for penny-ante poker penny stock games and viewing internet porn one image at a time.

Do you really go to all the trouble of ATM to change-machine and back to busker instead of just dropping one of your smallest bills/notes? I thought usually one either has change or does not and if no oh well hit you next time I come by maybe if I have change then.

If Canadian Tire is actually on to something with its loyalty system, which it might not be since it doesn't seem to get copied a lot, you might end up with lots and lots of different change: three or four different types of air miles, a bunch of pepsicokepalmolivecolgate coupons, some nickels and dimes and pennies, various different colours of poker chips and game gold silver copper and platinum and so on ad nauseum.

A busker who will take those off your hands could be a weight off your mind and an excuse to tell the kids no more candy today see I just gave all my change to this nice busker.

The point of the $0.02 command in my IRC bots is so you might end up having BitNickel whether you want it or not, simply because someone who did adopt them chose to put some in your IRC nick's account using that command.

Coins for tips should be able to work fine that way for people who are themselves worth tipping and others might not feel much desire to tip anyone anyway.

-MarkM- (Assuming the busker doesn't simply make change for you themself, of course, which does sound simpler. Smiley)

P.S. New in town? Got any towncoin, Sir? Only five mikes each and the buskers are out today, You'll not want to stalk past them all without showing a little appreciation will you, Sir?

P.P.S. Oh not a problem, my travel agent told me about your town's towncoin and made sure I brought some. How many do buskers customarily get, anyway?

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marcus_of_augustus
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May 30, 2011, 10:14:26 PM
 #17


Toss him a namecoin or two ...

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