Will AI end online poker?

[RodeoX]

I saw a thing in the news about a recent contest pitting computer AI against professional poker players. The people won, but just barely. Some of the payers were saying that they thought AI could get so good that it would end online poker. They argued that in the future bots will almost guarantee a win and humans would be at such a disadvantage that it would not be worth the gamble. Is that right? I don't know much about poker, but do you think this would happen?


Here it is in the L.A. Times
http://www.latimes.com/nation/great-reads/la-na-c1-claudico-poker-20150521-story.html#page=1

[WhatTheGox]

I saw a thing in the news about a recent contest pitting computer AI against professional poker players. The people won, but just barely. Some of the payers were saying that they thought AI could get so good that it would end online poker. They argued that in the future bots will almost guarantee a win and humans would be at such a disadvantage that it would not be worth the gamble. Is that right? I don't know much about poker, but do you think this would happen?


Here it is in the L.A. Times
http://www.latimes.com/nation/great-reads/la-na-c1-claudico-poker-20150521-story.html#page=1

I think computers can already beat players in fixed limit betting poker.  The problem is no limit betting is such a complex game.  Many bots have been built that can win in low stakes NL games online but none that win in tougher games afaik.  Its only a matter of time though and its pretty interesting to see what the millions of poker players will do when the games end.

A new game will become popular most likely.

[Rupert]

Yes it will happen. In chess it is already reality. The world champion only has a chance against a not so good AI that fits his style. He gets the source code 3 months before the event, so that he can analyse everything. And then he looses.

So what? Poker will get a game of nerds coding AIs against security expert Nerds who check if a player is AI or human.
I have some open source chess programs. Would like to get some open source poker AIs. I would like to open an Bitcoin/Altcoin casino, but not in Germany. I have to leave the country.

[RussianRaibow]

If u think logically, AI can calulate faster than human. That is why AI can beat human in chess. But, Poker is not all about calculation. It is also about luck. How come AI will beat human in luck. Luck is luck. Same for all... is not it ?

[lucasjkr]

Poker is not just numbers and odds, there's also a level of people reading and duplicity.

I could see computers crushing it at blackjack, but against a table of 9 others playing holdem, maybe I'm wrong, but I think they would struggle?

[arallmuus]

Is that right? I don't know much about poker, but do you think this would happen?

Here it is in the L.A. Times
http://www.latimes.com/nation/great-reads/la-na-c1-claudico-poker-20150521-story.html#page=1

Finally things are happening , Chess AI has proven up that they are better than human. I dont see any reason on why it is not happening in online poker as well.

this is good quote that is a strong point about why human will have a trouble beating this AI

"As a human, you always try to get in people's heads," said Bjorn Li, a 25-year-old from Hong Kong who played on the human team. "With this guy, you can't really do that, because he just plays according to his algorithms."

Indeed right, as a poker player, someone tend to see on the opponent's moves to determine if it is a bluff or not but with this AI it will impossible to do so.

If you are playing with profesional poker player for 10k hands , you will notice a similar strategy when the player is in some situation but if you are playing with AI , the strategy will be indeed different and if we are lucky to know this strategy then Im sure that it can change all over its strategy from scratch since it is a program

And this is a quote that support my point

Claudico was not programmed to play poker, per se. It was given the rules of poker. Then it spent months playing more hands against itself than humans have ever played, learning to navigate the dizzying number of possible game situations, a figure that exceeds the number of atoms in the universe

If the AI is so good to "program" his own program to play poker, I can see that this AI will be a tough opponent for professional poker player

[RodeoX]

Interesting stuff. Thanks for the responses. I can see how it is hard to instruct a computer what to do when playing a human mind.

[WhatTheGox]

If u think logically, AI can calulate faster than human. That is why AI can beat human in chess. But, Poker is not all about calculation. It is also about luck. How come AI will beat human in luck. Luck is luck. Same for all... is not it ?

Luck is no so much a big deal since over a short term either human or AI would win anyway.  AI would understand variance on a truly unique none tilting level and would play optimum poker on every decision - something that humans cant do.

[boopy265420]

The use of AI will finish the beauty of poker.There are lot of bots already being used in different games and If we watch by the point of site owners they are very good but some games like poker,chess are more interesting when these are played players vs players.Chess already has lost it attraction when it comes to play against bot/computer.This will be worst thing happening to poker if there will be use of AI ever.

[cparsley]

The problem that has been, and still will be for the AIs, at least in the short to intermediate term, is that poker, especially the no limit variety, is a game of incomplete information. Without that aforementioned incomplete information, an AI can't come to a 100% foolproof way of doing things, unlike a Chess AI can. However, it will be quite interesting to see where it goes from here as things advance.

[Xiaoxiao]

The use of AI will finish the beauty of poker.There are lot of bots already being used in different games and If we watch by the point of site owners they are very good but some games like poker,chess are more interesting when these are played players vs players.Chess already has lost it attraction when it comes to play against bot/computer.This will be worst thing happening to poker if there will be use of AI ever.

Won't happen in poker, because there is too much human psychology involved with poker.  Once an intelligent poker player knows he is up against a bot, the bot doesn't have much of a chance.

The worse thing that could happen is that seats can be filled with un sharp bots that don't spew as much as gamblers.  To be honest, I'd rather play against bots than a lot of today's well informed players.

[erwin45hacked]

I can see how it is hard to instruct a computer what to do when playing a human mind.

I think the computer is not instructed on what to do when playing poker against a human but the computer play again itself

Claudico was not programmed to play poker, per se. It was given the rules of poker. Then it spent months playing more hands against itself

This means that the computer has been playing alot of hands and have store in data for alot for it. With this a lot of data I think the computer will calculate the risk of raising his blinds or folding if someone raise his blinds

[cparsley]

Right, but that's taking in the calculation that every player the AI comes against will be as analytical as the bot is. We (anyone who's spent any time playing online) know, that definitely doesn't happen, so the AI would get puzzled, think the play is the new norm, and once again have bad algorhythms if its trying to learn off its play.

[twister]

Absolutely not, it may be able to beat normal level players that you meet on small poker rooms but when it comes to big boys, it can't. And as others mentioned it can't be compared to Chess.

Chess has set of rules/moves and based on those computers can build strategy and because it has super high computing power it can think of various outcomes of different moves 10-20 moves ahead, maybe more.

But Poker on the other hand no rules in regards to what cards will be dealt to players and what might get open as community cards, so it's a guess work and not based on exact facts and that's where a human brain has an advantage, it can bluff better than a computer.

[bitllionaire]

I read an article that it would be possible only if quantum computers arrives

[WhatTheGox]

The use of AI will finish the beauty of poker.There are lot of bots already being used in different games and If we watch by the point of site owners they are very good but some games like poker,chess are more interesting when these are played players vs players.Chess already has lost it attraction when it comes to play against bot/computer.This will be worst thing happening to poker if there will be use of AI ever.

Won't happen in poker, because there is too much human psychology involved with poker.  Once an intelligent poker player knows he is up against a bot, the bot doesn't have much of a chance.

It could well happen to perhaps a level where maybe the best poker players in the world can still beat the bots.  If that happens though it will still kill online poker as we know it.... because the games only run because of fish basically.

[cryptworld]

I think it is not possible,because if it has not happened in other games or systems it won't happen in poker

[iram91445]

I read an article that it would be possible only if quantum computers arrives

if its true then pheew, it will take a few years till everyone will start using quantum computers i think

[WhatTheGox]

I think it is not possible,because if it has not happened in other games or systems it won't happen in poker

Apparently backgammon used to be more popular decades ago and computing power killed off the games by solving how to play them.... its just something i've heard.

[Gervais]

Yes it will happen. In chess it is already reality. The world champion only has a chance against a not so good AI that fits his style. He gets the source code 3 months before the event, so that he can analyse everything. And then he looses.

So what? Poker will get a game of nerds coding AIs against security expert Nerds who check if a player is AI or human.
I have some open source chess programs. Would like to get some open source poker AIs. I would like to open an Bitcoin/Altcoin casino, but not in Germany. I have to leave the country.

Chess is a game of skill where ideally you need to plan moves in advance whereas poker is a game of chance down to the luck of the draw. The computer can't know what cards your opponents have either. I can't see how a computer would be any better than a human at it really.