Is there any way for casinos to cheat the provably fair?

[XinXan]

I dont have enough knowledge about these kind of things and thats why i am asking it. Is there any way to cheat it? To make it look like the rolls were fair when they were actually being manipulated?

[LiQuidx]

I dont have enough knowledge about these kind of things and thats why i am asking it. Is there any way to cheat it? To make it look like the rolls were fair when they were actually being manipulated?

Hey there. If they provide the server seed before you make the roll and you also provide the client roll then no. You can see the scheme that is used to calculate the rolls and you have that info before you make the roll so you can verify it afterwards.

[arallmuus]

I dont have enough knowledge about these kind of things and thats why i am asking it. Is there any way to cheat it? To make it look like the rolls were fair when they were actually being manipulated?

Yes there is, Casino that dont show hashes beforehand could be manipulating the result. That is why it is important to show hashes beforehand but most people are not aware of this

Another thing will be skipping nonce. Basically with each bet of the hash the nonce increase, if a casino is skipping nonce than the site could alter the result of the game

i.e player betting at 49.5 % chance at 1 % edge dice sites

nonce 3 - rolls 67.23 ---- Player bet low -> lose
nonce 2 - rolls 47.61 ---- Player bet low -> win >>> the house skip this nonce and goes to nonce 3
nonce 1 - rolls 90.34 ---- Player bet low -> lose
nonce 0 - rolls 97.11 ---- Player bet low -> lose

The house could be skipping nonce and goes straight to nonce 3 making them could alter the result of the rolls

[XinXan]

I dont have enough knowledge about these kind of things and thats why i am asking it. Is there any way to cheat it? To make it look like the rolls were fair when they were actually being manipulated?

Yes there is, Casino that dont show hashes beforehand could be manipulating the result. That is why it is important to show hashes beforehand but most people are not aware of this

Another thing will be skipping nonce. Basically with each bet of the hash the nonce increase, if a casino is skipping nonce than the site could alter the result of the game

i.e player betting at 49.5 % chance at 1 % edge dice sites

nonce 3 - rolls 67.23 ---- Player bet low -> lose
nonce 2 - rolls 47.61 ---- Player bet low -> win >>> the house skip this nonce and goes to nonce 3
nonce 1 - rolls 90.34 ---- Player bet low -> lose
nonce 0 - rolls 97.11 ---- Player bet low -> lose

The house could be skipping nonce and goes straight to nonce 3 making them could alter the result of the rolls

Im a bit confused, whats the nonce exactly? This?


In security engineering, a nonce is an arbitrary number used only once in a cryptographic communication.

Like asigning a random number to each roll?

[Minnlo]

I dont have enough knowledge about these kind of things and thats why i am asking it. Is there any way to cheat it? To make it look like the rolls were fair when they were actually being manipulated?

Yes there is, Casino that dont show hashes beforehand could be manipulating the result. That is why it is important to show hashes beforehand but most people are not aware of this

Another thing will be skipping nonce. Basically with each bet of the hash the nonce increase, if a casino is skipping nonce than the site could alter the result of the game

i.e player betting at 49.5 % chance at 1 % edge dice sites

nonce 3 - rolls 67.23 ---- Player bet low -> lose
nonce 2 - rolls 47.61 ---- Player bet low -> win >>> the house skip this nonce and goes to nonce 3
nonce 1 - rolls 90.34 ---- Player bet low -> lose
nonce 0 - rolls 97.11 ---- Player bet low -> lose

The house could be skipping nonce and goes straight to nonce 3 making them could alter the result of the rolls

Im a bit confused, whats the nonce exactly? This?


In security engineering, a nonce is an arbitrary number used only once in a cryptographic communication.

Like asigning a random number to each roll?

Not a random number, but the nonce should go up by 1 after each bet, until the player decides to change his server seed and client seed.
The bet result will be generated with something like sha(server seed:client seed:nonce). This way, the player can keep using the same seeds for making as many bets as he wants. The house could skip nonce to cheat the players, but it will be noticeable if the player verify his bets, just like in the dicebitcoin incident.

[LiQuidx]

I dont have enough knowledge about these kind of things and thats why i am asking it. Is there any way to cheat it? To make it look like the rolls were fair when they were actually being manipulated?

Yes there is, Casino that dont show hashes beforehand could be manipulating the result. That is why it is important to show hashes beforehand but most people are not aware of this

Another thing will be skipping nonce. Basically with each bet of the hash the nonce increase, if a casino is skipping nonce than the site could alter the result of the game

i.e player betting at 49.5 % chance at 1 % edge dice sites

nonce 3 - rolls 67.23 ---- Player bet low -> lose
nonce 2 - rolls 47.61 ---- Player bet low -> win >>> the house skip this nonce and goes to nonce 3
nonce 1 - rolls 90.34 ---- Player bet low -> lose
nonce 0 - rolls 97.11 ---- Player bet low -> lose

The house could be skipping nonce and goes straight to nonce 3 making them could alter the result of the rolls

Im a bit confused, whats the nonce exactly? This?


In security engineering, a nonce is an arbitrary number used only once in a cryptographic communication.

Like asigning a random number to each roll?

Nonce is an increasing number that is added to the client seed you choose. So for example if your seed is ABCDEFGHIJKL the first roll will be ABCDEFGHIJKL0 the 2nd roll will be ABCDEFGHIJKL1 the 3rd ABCDEFGHIJKL2 and so on.

[cbase]

I dont have enough knowledge about these kind of things and thats why i am asking it. Is there any way to cheat it? To make it look like the rolls were fair when they were actually being manipulated?

Yes there is, Casino that dont show hashes beforehand could be manipulating the result. That is why it is important to show hashes beforehand but most people are not aware of this

Another thing will be skipping nonce. Basically with each bet of the hash the nonce increase, if a casino is skipping nonce than the site could alter the result of the game

i.e player betting at 49.5 % chance at 1 % edge dice sites

nonce 3 - rolls 67.23 ---- Player bet low -> lose
nonce 2 - rolls 47.61 ---- Player bet low -> win >>> the house skip this nonce and goes to nonce 3
nonce 1 - rolls 90.34 ---- Player bet low -> lose
nonce 0 - rolls 97.11 ---- Player bet low -> lose

The house could be skipping nonce and goes straight to nonce 3 making them could alter the result of the rolls

Im a bit confused, whats the nonce exactly? This?


In security engineering, a nonce is an arbitrary number used only once in a cryptographic communication.

Like asigning a random number to each roll?

Nonce is an increasing number that is added to the client seed you choose. So for example if your seed is ABCDEFGHIJKL the first roll will be ABCDEFGHIJKL0 the 2nd roll will be ABCDEFGHIJKL1 the 3rd ABCDEFGHIJKL2 and so on.

AFAIK nonce isnt added in the last characters of the   client seed, there is some calculations on that.

[XinXan]

I dont have enough knowledge about these kind of things and thats why i am asking it. Is there any way to cheat it? To make it look like the rolls were fair when they were actually being manipulated?

Yes there is, Casino that dont show hashes beforehand could be manipulating the result. That is why it is important to show hashes beforehand but most people are not aware of this

Another thing will be skipping nonce. Basically with each bet of the hash the nonce increase, if a casino is skipping nonce than the site could alter the result of the game

i.e player betting at 49.5 % chance at 1 % edge dice sites

nonce 3 - rolls 67.23 ---- Player bet low -> lose
nonce 2 - rolls 47.61 ---- Player bet low -> win >>> the house skip this nonce and goes to nonce 3
nonce 1 - rolls 90.34 ---- Player bet low -> lose
nonce 0 - rolls 97.11 ---- Player bet low -> lose

The house could be skipping nonce and goes straight to nonce 3 making them could alter the result of the rolls

Im a bit confused, whats the nonce exactly? This?


In security engineering, a nonce is an arbitrary number used only once in a cryptographic communication.

Like asigning a random number to each roll?

Not a random number, but the nonce should go up by 1 after each bet, until the player decides to change his server seed and client seed.
The bet result will be generated with something like sha(server seed:client seed:nonce). This way, the player can keep using the same seeds for making as many bets as he wants. The house could skip nonce to cheat the players, but it will be noticeable if the player verify his bets, just like in the dicebitcoin incident.

I see now. Then its not possible for them to cheat doing that because you would notice it fast enough right? But you have to verify each roll, you cant verify all your rolls at once right? Thats why you need to use the nonce for each roll verified?

[arallmuus]

I dont have enough knowledge about these kind of things and thats why i am asking it. Is there any way to cheat it? To make it look like the rolls were fair when they were actually being manipulated?

Yes there is, Casino that dont show hashes beforehand could be manipulating the result. That is why it is important to show hashes beforehand but most people are not aware of this

Another thing will be skipping nonce. Basically with each bet of the hash the nonce increase, if a casino is skipping nonce than the site could alter the result of the game

i.e player betting at 49.5 % chance at 1 % edge dice sites

nonce 3 - rolls 67.23 ---- Player bet low -> lose
nonce 2 - rolls 47.61 ---- Player bet low -> win >>> the house skip this nonce and goes to nonce 3
nonce 1 - rolls 90.34 ---- Player bet low -> lose
nonce 0 - rolls 97.11 ---- Player bet low -> lose

The house could be skipping nonce and goes straight to nonce 3 making them could alter the result of the rolls

Im a bit confused, whats the nonce exactly? This?


In security engineering, a nonce is an arbitrary number used only once in a cryptographic communication.

Like asigning a random number to each roll?

Not random number. To explain it simply nonce is nothing more or less a number to indicate your roll sequence

roll number 1
roll number 2
roll number 3
roll number 4

In nonce it will be nonce 0, nonce 1, nonce 2 and nonce 3. The nonce will keep on increasing as long as you are still rolling and it will goes back to nonce 0  if you change your hashes. If you wish to try on this, you can try it here http://dicesites.com/primedice/verifier

I see now. Then its not possible for them to cheat doing that because you would notice it fast enough right? But you have to verify each roll, you cant verify all your rolls at once right? Thats why you need to use the nonce for each roll verified?

Not impossible , they can still cheat but player will notice it right away if they verify their bet but most people tend to not verify their bet that is why this loophole could be used to cheat by the site

[LiQuidx]

I dont have enough knowledge about these kind of things and thats why i am asking it. Is there any way to cheat it? To make it look like the rolls were fair when they were actually being manipulated?

Yes there is, Casino that dont show hashes beforehand could be manipulating the result. That is why it is important to show hashes beforehand but most people are not aware of this

Another thing will be skipping nonce. Basically with each bet of the hash the nonce increase, if a casino is skipping nonce than the site could alter the result of the game

i.e player betting at 49.5 % chance at 1 % edge dice sites

nonce 3 - rolls 67.23 ---- Player bet low -> lose
nonce 2 - rolls 47.61 ---- Player bet low -> win >>> the house skip this nonce and goes to nonce 3
nonce 1 - rolls 90.34 ---- Player bet low -> lose
nonce 0 - rolls 97.11 ---- Player bet low -> lose

The house could be skipping nonce and goes straight to nonce 3 making them could alter the result of the rolls

Im a bit confused, whats the nonce exactly? This?


In security engineering, a nonce is an arbitrary number used only once in a cryptographic communication.

Like asigning a random number to each roll?

Not a random number, but the nonce should go up by 1 after each bet, until the player decides to change his server seed and client seed.
The bet result will be generated with something like sha(server seed:client seed:nonce). This way, the player can keep using the same seeds for making as many bets as he wants. The house could skip nonce to cheat the players, but it will be noticeable if the player verify his bets, just like in the dicebitcoin incident.

I see now. Then its not possible for them to cheat doing that because you would notice it fast enough right? But you have to verify each roll, you cant verify all your rolls at once right? Thats why you need to use the nonce for each roll verified?

Yes exactly. There are verifies that given some input will calculate all your rolls.
You can find the verifiers here for some sites.

[Shogen]

There were in fact some so-called provably fair sites in the past, that used server time or bet ID in place of the nonce.
As you can imagine, both the server time and bet ID can be easily manipulated by the admin to generate a losing bet.
I don't think such site still exist nowadays though.

[bitbaby]

Actually even if they were provably fair, many players won't even bother checking each rolls, especially if they're doing the auto rolls or bot rolls and it will take a lot of time verifying 1000s of rolls and that is where a site can skip nonce.

I wonder if there is an easy way of doing it like a  script where you can enter all the rolls data at once and get them all checked ? because doing it manually is almost impossible.

[LiQuidx]

Actually even if they were provably fair, many players won't even bother checking each rolls, especially if they're doing the auto rolls or bot rolls and it will take a lot of time verifying 1000s of rolls and that is where a site can skip nonce.

I wonder if there is an easy way of doing it like a  script where you can enter all the rolls data at once and get them all checked ? because doing it manually is almost impossible.

You can use the link i provided above to produce the rolls and then just copy and paste the results in an excel file where you will also paste the rolls from the site. Then compare the 2 columns if they are the same.

[XinXan]

I dont have enough knowledge about these kind of things and thats why i am asking it. Is there any way to cheat it? To make it look like the rolls were fair when they were actually being manipulated?

Yes there is, Casino that dont show hashes beforehand could be manipulating the result. That is why it is important to show hashes beforehand but most people are not aware of this

Another thing will be skipping nonce. Basically with each bet of the hash the nonce increase, if a casino is skipping nonce than the site could alter the result of the game

i.e player betting at 49.5 % chance at 1 % edge dice sites

nonce 3 - rolls 67.23 ---- Player bet low -> lose
nonce 2 - rolls 47.61 ---- Player bet low -> win >>> the house skip this nonce and goes to nonce 3
nonce 1 - rolls 90.34 ---- Player bet low -> lose
nonce 0 - rolls 97.11 ---- Player bet low -> lose

The house could be skipping nonce and goes straight to nonce 3 making them could alter the result of the rolls

Im a bit confused, whats the nonce exactly? This?


In security engineering, a nonce is an arbitrary number used only once in a cryptographic communication.

Like asigning a random number to each roll?

Not random number. To explain it simply nonce is nothing more or less a number to indicate your roll sequence

roll number 1
roll number 2
roll number 3
roll number 4

In nonce it will be nonce 0, nonce 1, nonce 2 and nonce 3. The nonce will keep on increasing as long as you are still rolling and it will goes back to nonce 0  if you change your hashes. If you wish to try on this, you can try it here http://dicesites.com/primedice/verifier

I see now. Then its not possible for them to cheat doing that because you would notice it fast enough right? But you have to verify each roll, you cant verify all your rolls at once right? Thats why you need to use the nonce for each roll verified?

Not impossible , they can still cheat but player will notice it right away if they verify their bet but most people tend to not verify their bet that is why this loophole could be used to cheat by the site

Could there be any way that when you try to verify it they would know and they would change the number, you have to copy the seed to verify it so maybe when you control + c they automatically change the nonce to something that would seem normal when they were cheating? I dont know if im expressing correctly.

pd: Im making all these questions because some casinos have managed to win quite a lot of money in a really short time wich makes it suspicious.

[LiQuidx]

I dont have enough knowledge about these kind of things and thats why i am asking it. Is there any way to cheat it? To make it look like the rolls were fair when they were actually being manipulated?

Yes there is, Casino that dont show hashes beforehand could be manipulating the result. That is why it is important to show hashes beforehand but most people are not aware of this

Another thing will be skipping nonce. Basically with each bet of the hash the nonce increase, if a casino is skipping nonce than the site could alter the result of the game

i.e player betting at 49.5 % chance at 1 % edge dice sites

nonce 3 - rolls 67.23 ---- Player bet low -> lose
nonce 2 - rolls 47.61 ---- Player bet low -> win >>> the house skip this nonce and goes to nonce 3
nonce 1 - rolls 90.34 ---- Player bet low -> lose
nonce 0 - rolls 97.11 ---- Player bet low -> lose

The house could be skipping nonce and goes straight to nonce 3 making them could alter the result of the rolls

Im a bit confused, whats the nonce exactly? This?


In security engineering, a nonce is an arbitrary number used only once in a cryptographic communication.

Like asigning a random number to each roll?

Not random number. To explain it simply nonce is nothing more or less a number to indicate your roll sequence

roll number 1
roll number 2
roll number 3
roll number 4

In nonce it will be nonce 0, nonce 1, nonce 2 and nonce 3. The nonce will keep on increasing as long as you are still rolling and it will goes back to nonce 0  if you change your hashes. If you wish to try on this, you can try it here http://dicesites.com/primedice/verifier

I see now. Then its not possible for them to cheat doing that because you would notice it fast enough right? But you have to verify each roll, you cant verify all your rolls at once right? Thats why you need to use the nonce for each roll verified?

Not impossible , they can still cheat but player will notice it right away if they verify their bet but most people tend to not verify their bet that is why this loophole could be used to cheat by the site

Could there be any way that when you try to verify it they would know and they would change the number, you have to copy the seed to verify it so maybe when you control + c they automatically change the nonce to something that would seem normal when they were cheating? I dont know if im expressing correctly.

pd: Im making all these questions because some casinos have managed to win quite a lot of money in a really short time wich makes it suspicious.

No the can't do that. Remember that when you play in a casino you ALWAYS play against the odds. So it's just matter of luck (and time). The more you play the more chances you have to lose.

[XinXan]

I dont have enough knowledge about these kind of things and thats why i am asking it. Is there any way to cheat it? To make it look like the rolls were fair when they were actually being manipulated?

Yes there is, Casino that dont show hashes beforehand could be manipulating the result. That is why it is important to show hashes beforehand but most people are not aware of this

Another thing will be skipping nonce. Basically with each bet of the hash the nonce increase, if a casino is skipping nonce than the site could alter the result of the game

i.e player betting at 49.5 % chance at 1 % edge dice sites

nonce 3 - rolls 67.23 ---- Player bet low -> lose
nonce 2 - rolls 47.61 ---- Player bet low -> win >>> the house skip this nonce and goes to nonce 3
nonce 1 - rolls 90.34 ---- Player bet low -> lose
nonce 0 - rolls 97.11 ---- Player bet low -> lose

The house could be skipping nonce and goes straight to nonce 3 making them could alter the result of the rolls

Im a bit confused, whats the nonce exactly? This?


In security engineering, a nonce is an arbitrary number used only once in a cryptographic communication.

Like asigning a random number to each roll?

Not random number. To explain it simply nonce is nothing more or less a number to indicate your roll sequence

roll number 1
roll number 2
roll number 3
roll number 4

In nonce it will be nonce 0, nonce 1, nonce 2 and nonce 3. The nonce will keep on increasing as long as you are still rolling and it will goes back to nonce 0  if you change your hashes. If you wish to try on this, you can try it here http://dicesites.com/primedice/verifier

I see now. Then its not possible for them to cheat doing that because you would notice it fast enough right? But you have to verify each roll, you cant verify all your rolls at once right? Thats why you need to use the nonce for each roll verified?

Not impossible , they can still cheat but player will notice it right away if they verify their bet but most people tend to not verify their bet that is why this loophole could be used to cheat by the site

Could there be any way that when you try to verify it they would know and they would change the number, you have to copy the seed to verify it so maybe when you control + c they automatically change the nonce to something that would seem normal when they were cheating? I dont know if im expressing correctly.

pd: Im making all these questions because some casinos have managed to win quite a lot of money in a really short time wich makes it suspicious.

No the can't do that. Remember that when you play in a casino you ALWAYS play against the odds. So it's just matter of luck (and time). The more you play the more chances you have to lose.

Yes you play against the odds but when the house edge is so small its suspicious they managed to win so much in such short amount of time. Im not going to say any names, apart from 999dice wich made 3.5k btc already with a 0.1% house edge in a really short time but i can say definitively that they are scam.

[LiQuidx]

I dont have enough knowledge about these kind of things and thats why i am asking it. Is there any way to cheat it? To make it look like the rolls were fair when they were actually being manipulated?

Yes there is, Casino that dont show hashes beforehand could be manipulating the result. That is why it is important to show hashes beforehand but most people are not aware of this

Another thing will be skipping nonce. Basically with each bet of the hash the nonce increase, if a casino is skipping nonce than the site could alter the result of the game

i.e player betting at 49.5 % chance at 1 % edge dice sites

nonce 3 - rolls 67.23 ---- Player bet low -> lose
nonce 2 - rolls 47.61 ---- Player bet low -> win >>> the house skip this nonce and goes to nonce 3
nonce 1 - rolls 90.34 ---- Player bet low -> lose
nonce 0 - rolls 97.11 ---- Player bet low -> lose

The house could be skipping nonce and goes straight to nonce 3 making them could alter the result of the rolls

Im a bit confused, whats the nonce exactly? This?


In security engineering, a nonce is an arbitrary number used only once in a cryptographic communication.

Like asigning a random number to each roll?

Not random number. To explain it simply nonce is nothing more or less a number to indicate your roll sequence

roll number 1
roll number 2
roll number 3
roll number 4

In nonce it will be nonce 0, nonce 1, nonce 2 and nonce 3. The nonce will keep on increasing as long as you are still rolling and it will goes back to nonce 0  if you change your hashes. If you wish to try on this, you can try it here http://dicesites.com/primedice/verifier

I see now. Then its not possible for them to cheat doing that because you would notice it fast enough right? But you have to verify each roll, you cant verify all your rolls at once right? Thats why you need to use the nonce for each roll verified?

Not impossible , they can still cheat but player will notice it right away if they verify their bet but most people tend to not verify their bet that is why this loophole could be used to cheat by the site

Could there be any way that when you try to verify it they would know and they would change the number, you have to copy the seed to verify it so maybe when you control + c they automatically change the nonce to something that would seem normal when they were cheating? I dont know if im expressing correctly.

pd: Im making all these questions because some casinos have managed to win quite a lot of money in a really short time wich makes it suspicious.

No the can't do that. Remember that when you play in a casino you ALWAYS play against the odds. So it's just matter of luck (and time). The more you play the more chances you have to lose.

Yes you play against the odds but when the house edge is so small its suspicious they managed to win so much in such short amount of time. Im not going to say any names, apart from 999dice wich made 3.5k btc already with a 0.1% house edge in a really short time but i can say definitively that they are scam.

There was a thread about 999dice because the hash is not reveled to you unless you press a button.. In that sense they can scam because they belong the category mentioned above (they don't show you the hash beforehand unless you press the button).

[shanem]

They have no reason to do that when casino can earn with their house edge.
It would destroy their reputation which is not a way anyone will run a business.

[keepinquiet]

It's absolutely possible. 999dice.com does it. I called them out on hiding the client seed until you tell the server you're using one - so until you did that, they could roll anything they wanted.

After they "changed" it, now it's shown on every roll - but - they change your client seed to something that is generated on their server, on EVERY roll.

Anyone want to change that seed every roll? No? Pain in the ass?

It's absolutely possible to cheat. 999dice is the pioneer of that shit.

[arallmuus]

Could there be any way that when you try to verify it they would know and they would change the number, you have to copy the seed to verify it so maybe when you control + c they automatically change the nonce to something that would seem normal when they were cheating? I dont know if im expressing correctly.

pd: Im making all these questions because some casinos have managed to win quite a lot of money in a really short time wich makes it suspicious.

They cant change it once the hash is shown then its all done there. Even if the hash is shown, most people dont verify their rolls, due tot that if the house is thinking of cheating then they would probably be skipping the nonce instead since people wont be noticing if a nonce is missing or not

P.S : casino is designed with edge which means they will get more instead of losing more

They have no reason to do that when casino can earn with their house edge.
It would destroy their reputation which is not a way anyone will run a business.

999dice does this and the site is still standing right now. Players are quite a bunch there and most of them doesnt care and keep on rolling blindly even though there are alot of evidences that prove the site is a scam site