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Author Topic: Gregory Maxwell threatens to sell his bitcoins and find other things to work on  (Read 7635 times)
SpanishSoldier
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May 31, 2015, 11:07:59 AM
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Ultimately, tis not mine to go convince people. If the Bitcoin community wants to go commit suicide, I'm confident that I can sell my most of my bitcoins before most of the public has realized things have gone wrong. ... I have to think this way to keep my sanity, I cannot personally save the world from everything that can possibly go wrong. And why else aren't there a series of blog posts? I'm not trying to sell you-- or anyone else-- on anything. It may just be that the world is simply not ready to handle a decentralized cryptocurrency. Work in this space stretches the bounds of what we're able to accomplish with software engineering, its not shock that it also streaches the bounds of what we can achieve with public education and political discourse. ... especially given the really modest amount of resources available.

We know from leaked emails that the Bitcoin XT fork has been planned for a year plus. The people promoting it have not been very active with Bitcoin Core in that time (or in Mike's case, ever) so I would be somewhat surprised if it went much of anywhere. So it doesn't generally concern me, but if nothing else what this even suggests is that it's very easy to convince a large portion of the Bitcoin users on Reddit to support a risky change to the fundamental rules of the system, even against substantial opposition from a large number of technical experts, against research evidence, and against the will of many long time users of Bitcoin-- and if that is so, a soft-fork that primarily only effects the people who choose to use it should be no big deal. Moreover, if that happens; it might well not just matter; if Bitcoin goes a centralizing route, I'll find other things to work on; there are too many important unsolved problems in the world to spend more of my life just building yet another centralized payments rail, no matter how personally profitable it might be..

Source: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/37vg8y/is_the_blockstream_company_the_reason_why_4_core/crqbd78


June 25, 2015 Update: Gregory Maxwell responded to this thread...

Egads, what a boggling thread. (I will not be sending a christmas card to the mean person that sent me this link! Smiley ).

Go read the context.  Someone was asking me why I'm not doing the some PR blitz to influence people's thinking.  My response was that I don't care to win people over, that if Bitcoin's survival depends on constantly making rescuing it with a political sales pitch and a mass market PR campaign then I think that would mean that its already a failure.  I don't actually believe it is a failure but I'm not frightened of it becoming one, though I'd think it would be a bit sad to have wasted many years chasing a windmill and for the world to lose this opportunity;  but that said, I can just leave if it goes the highly centralized route, and go work on something that still has a prospect of success-- there are just too many important things that need to be done.  I don't think there is anything "threatening" or anything about that.

I care a lot about defending, protecting, and nurturing the system, but not so much that I feel compelled to go around trying to reprogram people to get my way.  To even admit that doing so would be possible is an admission that the system cannot work.   So I'm happy to continue to just communicate frankly in the forums and means that I normally communicate in and see how the experiment pans out. Smiley
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Muhammed Zakir
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May 31, 2015, 11:14:29 AM
 #2

Another misleading title. Undecided

SpanishSoldier
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May 31, 2015, 11:17:26 AM
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Another misleading title. Undecided

Which part ? It is quoted from his comment as it is...
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May 31, 2015, 11:17:30 AM
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Nobody who publically threatens to sell all their bitcoins will ever sell of their bitcoins, something just doesn't add up in that equation.
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May 31, 2015, 11:20:51 AM
 #5

Nobody who publically threatens to sell all their bitcoins will ever sell of their bitcoins, something just doesn't add up in that equation.

That, I believe, is kinda true. Jed McCaleb threatened to sell off his Ripple holding, which he never sold.
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May 31, 2015, 11:23:57 AM
 #6

Nobody who publically threatens to sell all their bitcoins will ever sell of their bitcoins, something just doesn't add up in that equation.

That, I believe, is kinda true. Jed McCaleb threatened to sell off his Ripple holding, which he never sold.

Yup.  When you are serious about something like that and have truly lost all will you'd just silently disapear.  Its a call for a rally, perhaps signs we are in the anger stage.
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May 31, 2015, 11:30:39 AM
 #7

Another misleading title. Undecided

Which part ? It is quoted from his comment as it is...

You took two things which Maxwell told and made it one-like. This will make people think in a different way. Moreover, he didn't tell "I will sell my coins and will move on with other things", instead he told, "if Bitcoin goes a centralizing route, I will find other things to work on". Both are different.

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May 31, 2015, 11:34:05 AM
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Nobody who publically threatens to sell all their bitcoins will ever sell of their bitcoins, something just doesn't add up in that equation.

That, I believe, is kinda true. Jed McCaleb threatened to sell off his Ripple holding, which he never sold.

Yup.  When you are serious about something like that and have truly lost all will you'd just silently disapear.  Its a call for a rally, perhaps signs we are in the anger stage.

Do u mean a price rally ? In any case, I can see the outcome of this fork controversy is profit. There may be three outcome...

i. Both chains survive for some time -  Sell your coins on both chain. Double profit.

ii. Gavin wins - US merchants and new adoptors are with him. They'll start buying as Hearn & Gavin will now control the code.

iii. Gmaxwell wins - Old big holders are with him. Core remains. Gavin's out. All anti-US millionaires from China & Russia will start buying.

Moral of the story: Anyone who buys and hold till the fork happens, will walk out with profit.
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May 31, 2015, 11:42:55 AM
 #9

Another misleading title. Undecided

Which part ? It is quoted from his comment as it is...

You took two things which Maxwell told and made it one-like. This will make people think in a different way. Moreover, he didn't tell "I will sell my coins and will move on with other things", instead he told, "if Bitcoin goes a centralizing route, I will find other things to work on". Both are different.

If you read the full statement that he has made, it'd be clear to you that he considers the adoption of Bitcoin-XT as the centralized route.
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May 31, 2015, 11:47:27 AM
 #10

Another misleading title. Undecided

Which part ? It is quoted from his comment as it is...

You took two things which Maxwell told and made it one-like. This will make people think in a different way. Moreover, he didn't tell "I will sell my coins and will move on with other things", instead he told, "if Bitcoin goes a centralizing route, I will find other things to work on". Both are different.

If you read the full statement that he has made, it'd be clear to you that he considers the adoption of Bitcoin-XT as the centralized route.

Yes. Changing to something like "if Bitcoin-XT is adopted, Gregory Maxwell will find other things to work on" or something. The current title is misleading IMHO.

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May 31, 2015, 11:49:05 AM
 #11

"We know from leaked emails that the Bitcoin XT fork has been planned for a year plus. "

Gavin planned the backstabbing of the whole community for over a year!  He is a traitor! Only scammers and criminals will support his altcoin! Gavin just lost the last respect he had! GTFO GAVIN WE DON'T NEED OR WANT PEOPLE LIKE YOU! I am disgusted how he brings down the whole coin! Exile Gavin from Bitcoin NOW! Remaining Devs need to fork the Github and take away his control ASAP to save billions of investement from this crazy moron!
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May 31, 2015, 11:51:11 AM
 #12

Yes. Changing to something like "if Bitcoin-XT is adopted, Gregory Maxwell will find other things to work on" or something. The current title is misleading IMHO.
Have you not read his post? Are you having trouble understanding ti?
Quote
If the Bitcoin community wants to go commit suicide, I'm confident that I can sell my most of my bitcoins before most of the public has realized things have gone wrong. ...
Changing the title to anything else would be misleading. The title is correct, as Maxwell has exactly stated that he will sell out and find other things to work on if we follow the path of Bitcoin XT.
The situation is terrible right now.
Update: It might be partially misleading although changing it would also make it misleading, he did however state that he would see most of his Bitcoins and move on.

i. Both chains survive for some time -  Sell your coins on both chain. Double profit.

ii. Gavin wins - US merchants and new adoptors are with him. They'll start buying as Hearn & Gavin will now control the code.
iii. Gmaxwell wins - Old big holders are with him. Core remains. Gavin's out. All anti-US millionaires from China & Russia will start buying.
This is wrong. Two chains will never survive, although there will be a potential time period to sell coins (not necessarily though).
It is much more likely that the whole ecosystem will be abandoned rather than Gavin wining. Look at the drama now. Would you really stick with Gavin and Bitcoin XT which has weakened security?


There is also this. I agree that something has to be implemented to fix this as soon as possible. Implemented into the Core..
When the 1MB maxes out and confirmation times blow out, and the press articles appear savaging the "community" that failed, the ensuing PR disaster, and price collapse, a lot of full nodes will go dark - and then Greg Maxwell will see the route to centralization. He might say "oops I didn't expect that", but it will be too late.


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May 31, 2015, 12:00:18 PM
 #13

Another misleading title. Undecided

Which part ? It is quoted from his comment as it is...

You took two things which Maxwell told and made it one-like. This will make people think in a different way. Moreover, he didn't tell "I will sell my coins and will move on with other things", instead he told, "if Bitcoin goes a centralizing route, I will find other things to work on". Both are different.

If you read the full statement that he has made, it'd be clear to you that he considers the adoption of Bitcoin-XT as the centralized route.

When the 1MB maxes out and confirmation times blow out, and the press articles appear savaging the "community" that failed, the ensuing PR disaster, and price collapse, a lot of full nodes will go dark - and then Gregory Maxwell will see the route to centralization. He might say "oops I didn't expect that", but it will be too late.

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# Free market


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May 31, 2015, 12:05:18 PM
 #14

Another threatens thread, yuppie! Pleas guys, stop to use the word 'threatens' in the title.


He simple wants to sell some bitcoin, it is not a "threaten" .. example - I will say : if the price will not reach 250 dollars in the next 2 weeks I can sell most of my coins. He is also not obliged to work as volunteer for bitcoin, this should be clare from the beginning.. he is also free to leave or stay.
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May 31, 2015, 12:12:06 PM
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I'm unclear on how going the XT path would make it centralized.

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May 31, 2015, 12:13:44 PM
 #16

Another misleading title. Undecided

Which part ? It is quoted from his comment as it is...

You took two things which Maxwell told and made it one-like. This will make people think in a different way. Moreover, he didn't tell "I will sell my coins and will move on with other things", instead he told, "if Bitcoin goes a centralizing route, I will find other things to work on". Both are different.

If you read the full statement that he has made, it'd be clear to you that he considers the adoption of Bitcoin-XT as the centralized route.

When the 1MB maxes out and confirmation times blow out, and the press articles appear savaging the "community" that failed, the ensuing PR disaster, and price collapse, a lot of full nodes will go dark - and then Gregory Maxwell will see the route to centralization. He might say "oops I didn't expect that", but it will be too late.

It is not that GMaxwell and other core devs did not agree with the problem of 1 MB cap. But, they are proposing a different solution to handle this, i.e. use of www.lightning.network and sidechains, which blockstream is working on. Though, I am not sure, how far that work is done. But, increase of cap to 20MB only delays the issue for a few more years. This is not a permanent solution as Gavin agreed too. What GMaxwell is saying is, if we do not implement the permanent solution sooner using sidechains & lightning.network and delay it for a few years, then bitcoin might grow too big to implement a fork.
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# Free market


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May 31, 2015, 12:16:58 PM
 #17

I'm unclear on how going the XT path would make it centralized.

Because it will be needed more bandwidth, and a lot of people don't have access to it (node,etc...).
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May 31, 2015, 12:25:00 PM
 #18

I'm unclear on how going the XT path would make it centralized.

Because XT is in control of Hearn & Gavin and if it wins the mass adoption and can outshine QT, then they wont need to discuss or honor the opinion of other core devs anymore. It will simply go the routes merchants & regulatory bodies want. The current change they are proposing to win mass adoption is aparently harmless. But, the next changes might include good coin/bad coin segration and a few more that will then go unchalenged. Fungibility of coins will probably be challenged in the name of certain country's national security. There comes centralization.
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May 31, 2015, 12:31:47 PM
 #19

Changing the title to anything else would be misleading. The title is correct, as Maxwell has exactly stated that he will sell out and find other things to work on if we follow the path of Bitcoin XT.
I beg to differ. Gregory just "threatens" to find something other to work on. This is fine, it's his decision after all. He doesn't like the way the whole Bitcoin project is headed, so he'll just do something else.
He doesn't state that he will sell out, though. Rather, he believes that the proposed changes to Bitcoin might be perceived as suicidal for Bitcoin, which is why he would consider it a wise move to sell his Bitcoins before they depreciate.
At least that's the way I understand his words. Maybe I'm just nitpicking, but I find that difference important enough to be noted.

This is wrong. Two chains will never survive, although there will be a potential time period to sell coins (not necessarily though).
It is much more likely that the whole ecosystem will be abandoned rather than Gavin wining. Look at the drama now. Would you really stick with Gavin and Bitcoin XT which has weakened security?
Two chains might survive, but I too, doubt it. For a while, both might coexist, with the consequence of the value of Bitcoins in both networks together being roughly the same as the Bitcoins in one network now. For the exchange rate, this might mean a halving if both networks are of roughly equal size.
I believe it's much more likely that one of the chains will be significantly larger than the other from the beginning, probably something like 90/10 or even more. The larger one will most probably be valued more or less the same as before, while the other will depreciate rapidly, up to a point where it's no longer worthwhile to mine it or do anything meaningful with it.

So the question really is, which network will be larger?
As the old saying goes, just follow the money.
The larger network will be the one that's embraced by businesses like BitPay, large mining pools etc.
And I doubt that that's going to be the one without Gavin.

The "old" network might survive as something like a sect of the true faith of Satoshi, though. Which would make it a rather interesting social experiment Wink

There is also this. I agree that something has to be implemented to fix this as soon as possible. Implemented into the Core..
That's something most people can agree on, but they just can't agree upon the "how". Unfortunately, that's precisely the reason why Gavin has to take the steps he's taking right now.

Yeah, well... I'm gonna go build my own blockchain, with blackjack and hookers. In fact, forget the blockchain!
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May 31, 2015, 12:45:32 PM
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It is not that GMaxwell and other core devs did not agree with the problem of 1 MB cap. But, they are proposing a different solution to handle this, i.e. use of www.lightning.network and sidechains, which blockstream is working on. Though, I am not sure, how far that work is done. But, increase of cap to 20MB only delays the issue for a few more years. This is not a permanent solution as Gavin agreed too. What GMaxwell is saying is, if we do not implement the permanent solution sooner using sidechains & lightning.network and delay it for a few years, then bitcoin might grow too big to implement a fork.

They have said that sidechains are much more for experimental development (replacing the need for alt-coins), not for scaling.
Lightning Network is big and complex and will not be deployed any time soon, maybe in 3 years, or 2 if lucky.
However, the 1MB will be causing serious delays in tx confirmations within 1 year. So, an increase, even to 5MB or 10MB will buy the time needed for LN to be fully developed and deployed. Personally, I like what LN offers, I want to see it succeed as it will enhance Bitcoin. But I would rather have it enhance a healthy Bitcoin than one that is crippled and under a PR disaster cloud.

Why won't Core Dev buy the few years needed to bring LN and other off-chain solutions to the point where they are taking volume?

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