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Author Topic: theft/scamming way more profitable (and riskless) than legal businness  (Read 5605 times)
muyuu
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September 10, 2012, 03:07:22 PM
 #21

I think the risk of getting murdered however small cannot be compared to the risk of losing an initial monetary investment.

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September 10, 2012, 03:29:42 PM
 #22

I disagree - theft (even if you disguise it as a breakin at your service) just puts a blackmark on your reputation and thus limits future legit income.

So apart from the obvious ethics issues (which I hope I don't need to spell out), theft is actually not that profitable.

this is not right.

at this stage in the game, a big theft gets you a decent % of the total bitcoin.

just hold onto it, and you'll have more money than anyone in 10 years.
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September 10, 2012, 03:43:44 PM
 #23

Can't somebody with great insight start an inspiring thread; "What would Statoshi say to:"

All currencies are based on trust, so what attract people to Bitcoin in the first place, besides personal gain? Let's make a list of all it's unique qualities not possible with other monetary systems. That would be an encouraging read in times like this.  There is no need to promote an alternative idea if it not clear why this is different.

That would help with the moodiness.


 
 
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moocow1452
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September 10, 2012, 03:51:59 PM
 #24

If this is true, educate Bitcoin users. The huge majority of these scams and thefts involved people voluntarily handing over their Bitcoins.

Don't give cash to random internet identities. It's that simple.

Ridiculous.

Point, people are lazy and want to spend money to make money, using Bitcoin as a test bed currency, since it's not fluid enough to be able to pay for your next meal, but still of value. That's an impulse control problem rather than outright malice, since there isn't a consequence to a falsified trade outside of having to leave town and coming back with a new name, there is a scamming subculture in Bitcoin, and people like to pay for concepts rather than tangible goods, and do get pissed when goods don't deliver. Can we fix even that preception, before our goodwill runs out without gutting Bitcoin's anonymity?

^ The way it was spun to me, Bitcoin was based on not having to trust any one person, that it held wealth because we all agreed on it, no matter what anyone thought. Is Bitcoin built to trust no one, or trust everyone, since we're not doing a good job at either right now.
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September 10, 2012, 05:27:08 PM
 #25

what a shame...

as a friend and me decided to offer a new bitcoin service: should we steal the coins?

seems to be more profitable: and i am not able to see any risks.

(btw: no we won't do that. we'll just make sure its impossible to steal us a huge amount. but damn morality... if you would shut up i'll be rich!)

There are risks, and it's only a matter of time before someone serves jailtime for a bitcoin related crime.
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September 10, 2012, 05:54:09 PM
 #26

what a shame...

as a friend and me decided to offer a new bitcoin service: should we steal the coins?

seems to be more profitable: and i am not able to see any risks.

(btw: no we won't do that. we'll just make sure its impossible to steal us a huge amount. but damn morality... if you would shut up i'll be rich!)

There are risks, and it's only a matter of time before someone serves jailtime for a bitcoin related crime.

There's already people serving time for USD-related crimes.
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September 10, 2012, 06:01:41 PM
 #27

There are risks, and it's only a matter of time before someone serves jailtime for a bitcoin related crime.

There's already people serving time for USD-related crimes.

I have two questions:

1) Since BTC is decentralized and apparently subject to no law or taxation, how do you propose bringing a bitcoin thief to "justice" and under whose law?
2) If bitcoin miners and traders are not paying any taxes on their bitcoin related activity, why are they entitled to the protection of whatever society they're evading taxation from?
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September 10, 2012, 06:08:14 PM
 #28

There are risks, and it's only a matter of time before someone serves jailtime for a bitcoin related crime.

There's already people serving time for USD-related crimes.

I have two questions:

1) Since BTC is decentralized and apparently subject to no law or taxation, how do you propose bringing a bitcoin thief to "justice" and under whose law?
2) If bitcoin miners and traders are not paying any taxes on their bitcoin related activity, why are they entitled to the protection of whatever society they're evading taxation from?

How i'd handle it:

1 - Here in the UK i'd use the computer misuse act or fraud charges

2 - Simple answer - tax evasion is illegal too, for myself I do file my tax returns and pay the amount owed under british law, part of which includes funding for the police - so I have absolutely no ethical qualms whatsoever about using the services of the police - whether or not those services are any good is a different question..........
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September 10, 2012, 06:15:01 PM
 #29

There are risks, and it's only a matter of time before someone serves jailtime for a bitcoin related crime.

There's already people serving time for USD-related crimes.

I have two questions:

1) Since BTC is decentralized and apparently subject to no law or taxation, how do you propose bringing a bitcoin thief to "justice" and under whose law?
2) If bitcoin miners and traders are not paying any taxes on their bitcoin related activity, why are they entitled to the protection of whatever society they're evading taxation from?

Gareth's probably right on Fraud, but the most valuable thing you lose is credibility. Even when everyone is anonymous, you don't poo where you eat so to speak. That's bad for business, and once people realize that some people make bank by running Gox or Bitinstant by being honest and open, and they are losing out by ripping people off little by little, then there's more of an incentive to be good and not evil. Unless evil is just more fun, in which case, you need to be so smart about your evil, you might as well be legitimate.
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September 10, 2012, 06:36:21 PM
 #30

Gareth's probably right on Fraud, but the most valuable thing you lose is credibility. Even when everyone is anonymous, you don't poo where you eat so to speak.

What do you mean?  How do you have accountability or credibility with complete anonymity?  I'm sorry but bitcoin history does not agree with your assertion - nckrazze started a PPT and lied about it being a PPT with only two week's investment in the forums.

How many accounts has Atlas had, again?
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September 10, 2012, 06:46:18 PM
 #31

Gareth's probably right on Fraud, but the most valuable thing you lose is credibility. Even when everyone is anonymous, you don't poo where you eat so to speak.

What do you mean?  How do you have accountability or credibility with complete anonymity?  I'm sorry but bitcoin history does not agree with your assertion - nckrazze started a PPT and lied about it being a PPT with only two week's investment in the forums.

How many accounts has Atlas had, again?

By not being completely anonymous - giving large sums of money to people who are completely anonymous is a bad idea, even if you have the technology to do so.
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September 10, 2012, 06:54:30 PM
 #32

This is exactly why people look at bitcoin as a scam. Con artist roam free and their victims run around supporting them, shouting down reasonable discourse with a chorus of "troll".

Even now, obvious scams are operating openly, right on the heels of the pirate fiasco, and very few people are speaking out against it (unsurprisingly,many more are actively supporting the scammers)

Its sad.

I think I need another forum break.

That's not really true. People who don't/didn't understand it thought it was a scam back before there was a single theft (that I can recall, certainly nothing in the news).

New thing that I don't get that has to do with money = scam to a lot of people.

Obv doesn't help that people now hear about scams done using it, but most of the people who can't think straight enough to tell the difference between a hammer and a murder didn't/wouldn't have gotten it in the first place.

There is a huge block of people who need big incentive to change anything, maybe you are hearing a few of them giving an excuse. Later if/when it can really help them it doesn't actually matter that a guy named ********* promised **************** and didn't deliver.

Play Bitcoin Poker at sealswithclubs.eu. We're active and open to everyone.
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September 10, 2012, 06:56:42 PM
 #33

Gareth's probably right on Fraud, but the most valuable thing you lose is credibility. Even when everyone is anonymous, you don't poo where you eat so to speak.

What do you mean?  How do you have accountability or credibility with complete anonymity?  I'm sorry but bitcoin history does not agree with your assertion - nckrazze started a PPT and lied about it being a PPT with only two week's investment in the forums.

How many accounts has Atlas had, again?

By not being completely anonymous - giving large sums of money to people who are completely anonymous is a bad idea, even if you have the technology to do so.

Okay, so people have confirmed (in their minds, and I agree) that pirate is "Trendon Shavers".  What now?
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September 10, 2012, 07:11:36 PM
 #34

Gareth's probably right on Fraud, but the most valuable thing you lose is credibility. Even when everyone is anonymous, you don't poo where you eat so to speak.

What do you mean?  How do you have accountability or credibility with complete anonymity?  I'm sorry but bitcoin history does not agree with your assertion - nckrazze started a PPT and lied about it being a PPT with only two week's investment in the forums.

How many accounts has Atlas had, again?

Who the fuck are you really? That's an awful lot of correct old specific knowledge for someone with 17 posts. Let me guess, you have been lurking for 2 1/2 years and finally decided to start posting.  LOL
Lurking but not for two and a half years.  God no.  My day job kept me far too busy to actively participate so I've been a spectator till now.  Besides, if the references are true and the points are the same, why does it matter who I am in an anonymous internet forum around an anonymous crypto-currency?  Huh?
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September 10, 2012, 07:34:31 PM
 #35

Because you sound like Matthew to me.



Sorry to burst your bubble, but I'm not in Korea taking lascivious pictures of schoolgirls.  I also have better grammar. Wink
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September 10, 2012, 07:44:38 PM
 #36

I think that if someone loses lots of coins to a hack that they had no business keeping in a hotwallet, there ought to be an outright PRESUMPTION of an inside job.

I keep seeing thread titles, "How come exchanges haven't learned their lesson with cold storage?"  The answer is, of course they have, they just stole the coins and are trying to milk that excuse as long as they can while people are still apparently willing to believe it.

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper or hardware wallets instead.
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September 10, 2012, 08:21:45 PM
 #37

I think that if someone loses lots of coins to a hack that they had no business keeping in a hotwallet, there ought to be an outright PRESUMPTION of an inside job.

I keep seeing thread titles, "How come exchanges haven't learned their lesson with cold storage?"  The answer is, of course they have, they just stole the coins and are trying to milk that excuse as long as they can while people are still apparently willing to believe it.


AND, inside job or not, they need to be held accountable for every coin lost, 100%.
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September 10, 2012, 08:31:14 PM
 #38

I think the thing we got to ask ourselves is what can be done on the technical side and if such changes can be patched in with the consensus of the developers. There are plenty of solutions already proposed with minimal storage requirements and full compatibility, like the third party signed transactions proposal.

We should not get to the point where the fear of change by existing investors hinders innovation.

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they keep laughing, then they start choking on their laughter, and then they go and catch their breath. Then they start laughing even more.
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September 10, 2012, 08:32:04 PM
 #39

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September 10, 2012, 08:36:51 PM
 #40

internet wild wild west....

In a basement, not a mansion,
suff'ring heatstroke from his mine
Dwelt a miner two thousand niner,
And his daughter Clementine
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