theft/scamming way more profitable (and riskless) than legal businness

[flower1024]

what a shame...

as a friend and me decided to offer a new bitcoin service: should we steal the coins?

seems to be more profitable: and i am not able to see any risks.

(btw: no we won't do that. we'll just make sure its impossible to steal us a huge amount. but damn morality... if you would shut up i'll be rich!)

[1715640102]

1715640102

[FlipPro]

what a shame...

as a friend and me decided to offer a new bitcoin service: should we steal the coins?

seems to be more profitable: and i am not able to see any risks.

(btw: no we won't do that. we'll just make sure its impossible to steal us a huge amount. but damn morality... if you would shut up i'll be rich!)

Sad but true..

Don't loose faith though. There are many good people in this community who believe in this project and what it truly stands for.

[Bitcoin Oz]

what a shame...

as a friend and me decided to offer a new bitcoin service: should we steal the coins?

seems to be more profitable: and i am not able to see any risks.

(btw: no we won't do that. we'll just make sure its impossible to steal us a huge amount. but damn morality... if you would shut up i'll be rich!)

Its more profitable than any other bitcoin  business for sure.

[flower1024]

i have an idea

whenever i say i use a service you all should leave it immediatly.. i am the perfect scam detector

(sorry... just in a bad mood today...)

[Graet]

i have an idea

whenever i say i use a service you all should leave it immediatly.. i am the perfect scam detector

(sorry... just in a bad mood today...)

I feel your pain
If I was an outsider looking in I'd be running in the opposite direction atm
great advertising we haven't been giving out lately :/

* Graet ignores Bitcoin Discussion and Newbies and slinks back to the mining subforum

[benjamindees]

It is a shame.  But it is also part of the learning process that all economies must go through in order to discover the true rate of growth.  With Bitcoin, this will be especially difficult due to a number of unique factors.  Many of the scams we have seen so far have been shocking.  And it is shocking that people keep falling for them.  But the important thing is that the economy keeps growing regardless.

In fact, one of the unique reasons for so many scams is something that I've been saying for a while, that Bitcoin needs to develop local economies in order to really flourish.  It's much more difficult to steal from customers who know where you live.

[ice_chill]

What is the scam exactly ? I never encountered any ? maybe because I am not greedy ?

[kwukduck]

"theft/scamming way more profitable (and riskless) than legal businness"

Wow, it's just like in real life! With dollars and euros... i'm sure that now that's cleared up, bitcoin will flourish!

[Gareth Nelson]

I disagree - theft (even if you disguise it as a breakin at your service) just puts a blackmark on your reputation and thus limits future legit income.

So apart from the obvious ethics issues (which I hope I don't need to spell out), theft is actually not that profitable.

[drrussellshane]

I disagree - theft (even if you disguise it as a breakin at your service) just puts a blackmark on your reputation and thus limits future legit income.

So apart from the obvious ethics issues (which I hope I don't need to spell out), theft is actually not that profitable.

For it to lack profitability, theft sure is a thriving industry.

[greyhawk]

I disagree - theft (even if you disguise it as a breakin at your service) just puts a blackmark on your reputation and thus limits future legit income.

This is only possible in an environment where you are not a mostly anonymous entity. In an environment like here you just take off that blood soaked nickname, done a new pristine squeaky clean one and you're all set up for the kill of your next juicy victim.

[stick_theman]

Too shortsighted.  There are too many risks being a thief.

[N12]

Agreed.

As I recently posted,

Well, I can't say that the most successful bitcoin ventures haven't consisted of hacking, stealing and defrauding people. It's easy, risk free and extremely lucrative. Kind of too good to be true. Grin

If it's true and people don't find a way to make it more risky (find and punish some of the criminals, for instance), I guess Bitcoin would constitute a negative sum game in which all honest participants lose. I wonder how long such a thing could last.

I think I said similar things back when Bitcoinica was hacked. If the winners of a systems are those that destroy value, the system will not last.

[kokojie]

Not if your customers start demanding minimum verifications. I see often in the bitcoin community, people are too easy to trust someone, without demanding
minimum level of verification. I think you better be putting up your government ID, your name address, and have them verified etc... before anyone would be willing to
do business with you.

[justusranvier]

I disagree - theft (even if you disguise it as a breakin at your service) just puts a blackmark on your reputation and thus limits future legit income.

So apart from the obvious ethics issues (which I hope I don't need to spell out), theft is actually not that profitable.

I agree with this from a theoretical perspective but recent events have shown the existing online reputation systems are wholly insufficient for the task.

The cost-benefit ratio for scamming is skewed at the moment because the cost of obtaining a good reputation is too low so losing it doesn't provide a sufficient deterrent.

I've got a plan for fixing it though.

[Gareth Nelson]

I disagree - theft (even if you disguise it as a breakin at your service) just puts a blackmark on your reputation and thus limits future legit income.

This is only possible in an environment where you are not a mostly anonymous entity. In an environment like here you just take off that blood soaked nickname, done a new pristine squeaky clean one and you're all set up for the kill of your next juicy victim.

That only works for the little guys or for the thieves who break into other people's services - if you're well-known and meeting people in-person etc it'd be difficult to get a whole new identity and maintain it at the same level.

So basically, if you're a public figure, theft is more difficult.

[greyhawk]

Not if your customers start demanding minimum verifications. I see often in the bitcoin community, people are too easy to trust someone, without demanding
minimum level of verification. I think you better be putting up your government ID, your name address, and have them verified etc... before anyone would be willing to
do business with you.

True enough, although you know that this doesn't happen here.

Here it's:

  : "Hi, i have an offer where..."
  : "Ya? Who you think you are? Huh?"
  : ".... where I will give you 7% weekly and...."
  : "Here's the key to my safebox. Take as much as you need."

[moocow1452]

On a strictly pragmatic view, you can steal coins, get away, and no one would know the wiser, but the exact same thing can happen to you and you can't come back to the community for help. The thing you would want to do is get crowdfunded for something you are absolutely passionate about, since all the money in the world can't really make someone happy unless you're doing something with it. You get a system worked where the Bitcoin is just motivation or icing on the cake, and you can go a lot farther than anything you'd put your mind to on your own.

That, and on an ethical viewpoint, you are a douche-bag if you see your customers as resource to be farmed and nothing else. Don't be a douche-bag, or else three spirits will tie you to your bed and beat the living crap out of you come Christmas Eve. Or something.

[Gabi]

From my EVE experience i know that even after 5 and more years ppl keep falling for scams. Fun fact: everytime they lose more and more money

Same apply for btc 

[evolve]

This is exactly why people look at bitcoin as a scam. Con artist roam free and their victims run around supporting them, shouting down reasonable discourse with a chorus of "troll".

Even now, obvious scams are operating openly, right on the heels of the pirate fiasco, and very few people are speaking out against it (unsurprisingly,many more are actively supporting the scammers)

Its sad.

I think I need another forum break.

[muyuu]

I think the risk of getting murdered however small cannot be compared to the risk of losing an initial monetary investment.

[paulie_w]

I disagree - theft (even if you disguise it as a breakin at your service) just puts a blackmark on your reputation and thus limits future legit income.

So apart from the obvious ethics issues (which I hope I don't need to spell out), theft is actually not that profitable.

this is not right.

at this stage in the game, a big theft gets you a decent % of the total bitcoin.

just hold onto it, and you'll have more money than anyone in 10 years.

[Luno]

Can't somebody with great insight start an inspiring thread; "What would Statoshi say to:"

All currencies are based on trust, so what attract people to Bitcoin in the first place, besides personal gain? Let's make a list of all it's unique qualities not possible with other monetary systems. That would be an encouraging read in times like this.  There is no need to promote an alternative idea if it not clear why this is different.

That would help with the moodiness.

[moocow1452]

If this is true, educate Bitcoin users. The huge majority of these scams and thefts involved people voluntarily handing over their Bitcoins.

Don't give cash to random internet identities. It's that simple.

Ridiculous.

Point, people are lazy and want to spend money to make money, using Bitcoin as a test bed currency, since it's not fluid enough to be able to pay for your next meal, but still of value. That's an impulse control problem rather than outright malice, since there isn't a consequence to a falsified trade outside of having to leave town and coming back with a new name, there is a scamming subculture in Bitcoin, and people like to pay for concepts rather than tangible goods, and do get pissed when goods don't deliver. Can we fix even that preception, before our goodwill runs out without gutting Bitcoin's anonymity?

^ The way it was spun to me, Bitcoin was based on not having to trust any one person, that it held wealth because we all agreed on it, no matter what anyone thought. Is Bitcoin built to trust no one, or trust everyone, since we're not doing a good job at either right now.

[Herodes]

what a shame...

as a friend and me decided to offer a new bitcoin service: should we steal the coins?

seems to be more profitable: and i am not able to see any risks.

(btw: no we won't do that. we'll just make sure its impossible to steal us a huge amount. but damn morality... if you would shut up i'll be rich!)

There are risks, and it's only a matter of time before someone serves jailtime for a bitcoin related crime.

[Gareth Nelson]

what a shame...

as a friend and me decided to offer a new bitcoin service: should we steal the coins?

seems to be more profitable: and i am not able to see any risks.

(btw: no we won't do that. we'll just make sure its impossible to steal us a huge amount. but damn morality... if you would shut up i'll be rich!)

There are risks, and it's only a matter of time before someone serves jailtime for a bitcoin related crime.

There's already people serving time for USD-related crimes.

[Yolocoin]

There are risks, and it's only a matter of time before someone serves jailtime for a bitcoin related crime.

There's already people serving time for USD-related crimes.

I have two questions:

1) Since BTC is decentralized and apparently subject to no law or taxation, how do you propose bringing a bitcoin thief to "justice" and under whose law?
2) If bitcoin miners and traders are not paying any taxes on their bitcoin related activity, why are they entitled to the protection of whatever society they're evading taxation from?

[Gareth Nelson]

There are risks, and it's only a matter of time before someone serves jailtime for a bitcoin related crime.

There's already people serving time for USD-related crimes.

I have two questions:

1) Since BTC is decentralized and apparently subject to no law or taxation, how do you propose bringing a bitcoin thief to "justice" and under whose law?
2) If bitcoin miners and traders are not paying any taxes on their bitcoin related activity, why are they entitled to the protection of whatever society they're evading taxation from?

How i'd handle it:

1 - Here in the UK i'd use the computer misuse act or fraud charges

2 - Simple answer - tax evasion is illegal too, for myself I do file my tax returns and pay the amount owed under british law, part of which includes funding for the police - so I have absolutely no ethical qualms whatsoever about using the services of the police - whether or not those services are any good is a different question..........

[moocow1452]

There are risks, and it's only a matter of time before someone serves jailtime for a bitcoin related crime.

There's already people serving time for USD-related crimes.

I have two questions:

1) Since BTC is decentralized and apparently subject to no law or taxation, how do you propose bringing a bitcoin thief to "justice" and under whose law?
2) If bitcoin miners and traders are not paying any taxes on their bitcoin related activity, why are they entitled to the protection of whatever society they're evading taxation from?

Gareth's probably right on Fraud, but the most valuable thing you lose is credibility. Even when everyone is anonymous, you don't poo where you eat so to speak. That's bad for business, and once people realize that some people make bank by running Gox or Bitinstant by being honest and open, and they are losing out by ripping people off little by little, then there's more of an incentive to be good and not evil. Unless evil is just more fun, in which case, you need to be so smart about your evil, you might as well be legitimate.

[Yolocoin]

Gareth's probably right on Fraud, but the most valuable thing you lose is credibility. Even when everyone is anonymous, you don't poo where you eat so to speak.

What do you mean?  How do you have accountability or credibility with complete anonymity?  I'm sorry but bitcoin history does not agree with your assertion - nckrazze started a PPT and lied about it being a PPT with only two week's investment in the forums.

How many accounts has Atlas had, again?

[Gareth Nelson]

Gareth's probably right on Fraud, but the most valuable thing you lose is credibility. Even when everyone is anonymous, you don't poo where you eat so to speak.

What do you mean?  How do you have accountability or credibility with complete anonymity?  I'm sorry but bitcoin history does not agree with your assertion - nckrazze started a PPT and lied about it being a PPT with only two week's investment in the forums.

How many accounts has Atlas had, again?

By not being completely anonymous - giving large sums of money to people who are completely anonymous is a bad idea, even if you have the technology to do so.

[FreeMoney]

This is exactly why people look at bitcoin as a scam. Con artist roam free and their victims run around supporting them, shouting down reasonable discourse with a chorus of "troll".

Even now, obvious scams are operating openly, right on the heels of the pirate fiasco, and very few people are speaking out against it (unsurprisingly,many more are actively supporting the scammers)

Its sad.

I think I need another forum break.

That's not really true. People who don't/didn't understand it thought it was a scam back before there was a single theft (that I can recall, certainly nothing in the news).

New thing that I don't get that has to do with money = scam to a lot of people.

Obv doesn't help that people now hear about scams done using it, but most of the people who can't think straight enough to tell the difference between a hammer and a murder didn't/wouldn't have gotten it in the first place.

There is a huge block of people who need big incentive to change anything, maybe you are hearing a few of them giving an excuse. Later if/when it can really help them it doesn't actually matter that a guy named ********* promised **************** and didn't deliver.

[Yolocoin]

Gareth's probably right on Fraud, but the most valuable thing you lose is credibility. Even when everyone is anonymous, you don't poo where you eat so to speak.

What do you mean?  How do you have accountability or credibility with complete anonymity?  I'm sorry but bitcoin history does not agree with your assertion - nckrazze started a PPT and lied about it being a PPT with only two week's investment in the forums.

How many accounts has Atlas had, again?

By not being completely anonymous - giving large sums of money to people who are completely anonymous is a bad idea, even if you have the technology to do so.

Okay, so people have confirmed (in their minds, and I agree) that pirate is "Trendon Shavers".  What now?

[Yolocoin]

Gareth's probably right on Fraud, but the most valuable thing you lose is credibility. Even when everyone is anonymous, you don't poo where you eat so to speak.

What do you mean?  How do you have accountability or credibility with complete anonymity?  I'm sorry but bitcoin history does not agree with your assertion - nckrazze started a PPT and lied about it being a PPT with only two week's investment in the forums.

How many accounts has Atlas had, again?

Who the fuck are you really? That's an awful lot of correct old specific knowledge for someone with 17 posts. Let me guess, you have been lurking for 2 1/2 years and finally decided to start posting.  LOL

Lurking but not for two and a half years.  God no.  My day job kept me far too busy to actively participate so I've been a spectator till now.  Besides, if the references are true and the points are the same, why does it matter who I am in an anonymous internet forum around an anonymous crypto-currency?  Huh?

[Yolocoin]

Because you sound like Matthew to me.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I'm not in Korea taking lascivious pictures of schoolgirls.  I also have better grammar.

[casascius]

I think that if someone loses lots of coins to a hack that they had no business keeping in a hotwallet, there ought to be an outright PRESUMPTION of an inside job.

I keep seeing thread titles, "How come exchanges haven't learned their lesson with cold storage?"  The answer is, of course they have, they just stole the coins and are trying to milk that excuse as long as they can while people are still apparently willing to believe it.

[Yolocoin]

I think that if someone loses lots of coins to a hack that they had no business keeping in a hotwallet, there ought to be an outright PRESUMPTION of an inside job.

I keep seeing thread titles, "How come exchanges haven't learned their lesson with cold storage?"  The answer is, of course they have, they just stole the coins and are trying to milk that excuse as long as they can while people are still apparently willing to believe it.

AND, inside job or not, they need to be held accountable for every coin lost, 100%.

[ElectricMucus]

I think the thing we got to ask ourselves is what can be done on the technical side and if such changes can be patched in with the consensus of the developers. There are plenty of solutions already proposed with minimal storage requirements and full compatibility, like the third party signed transactions proposal.

We should not get to the point where the fear of change by existing investors hinders innovation.

[smoothie]

internet wild wild west....

[greyhawk]

internet wild wild west....

In a basement, not a mansion,
suff'ring heatstroke from his mine
Dwelt a miner two thousand niner,
And his daughter Clementine

[Yolocoin]

Because you sound like Matthew to me.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I'm not in Korea taking lascivious pictures of schoolgirls.  I also have better grammar.

Well, maybe I'm wrong but that's exactly how I would have expected Matt to respond. Even that's ok I guess. Someone needs to fill the master troll shoes eventually to keep this place lively. I just wish Matt would return as himself and keep answering these butthurt scam-targets, at least until the new fall TV season really takes off. ROTFL

Yeah... Breaking Bad is on hiatus. Damn.

I think the thing we got to ask ourselves is what can be done on the technical side and if such changes can be patched in with the consensus of the developers. There are plenty of solutions already proposed with minimal storage requirements and full compatibility, like the third party signed transactions proposal.

We should not get to the point where the fear of change by existing investors hinders innovation.

So... you're asking for reversible bitcoin transactions?

[ElectricMucus]

I think the thing we got to ask ourselves is what can be done on the technical side and if such changes can be patched in with the consensus of the developers. There are plenty of solutions already proposed with minimal storage requirements and full compatibility, like the third party signed transactions proposal.

We should not get to the point where the fear of change by existing investors hinders innovation.

So... you're asking for reversible bitcoin transactions?

Have you read the proposal? It's not reversible transactions but escrow built into the blokchain without additional counterparty risk.
We could have that right now for just a one or two additional values stored per transaction.

[Yolocoin]

Escrow, aka "reversible transactions."

[ElectricMucus]

Escrow, aka "reversible transactions."

Nope the transaction doesn't take place until the escrow agrees, there is no balance transferred. Your ignorance baffles me.

[TheBible]

what a shame...

as a friend and me decided to offer a new bitcoin service: should we steal the coins?

seems to be more profitable: and i am not able to see any risks.

(btw: no we won't do that. we'll just make sure its impossible to steal us a huge amount. but damn morality... if you would shut up i'll be rich!)

Do it.  Half of the people you scam here will actively defend you long after the fact.

[flower1024]

what a shame...

as a friend and me decided to offer a new bitcoin service: should we steal the coins?

seems to be more profitable: and i am not able to see any risks.

(btw: no we won't do that. we'll just make sure its impossible to steal us a huge amount. but damn morality... if you would shut up i'll be rich!)

Do it.  Half of the people you scam here will actively defend you long after the fact.

no, never
i want to feel comfortable. and scamming other people does not make me happy...
^^ this is much more worth than money (esp. if i think about my cute baby)

edit: lucky -> happy

[Monster Tent]

Not only should you steal as much as possible you should setup a passthrough to draw in more funds to invest in your scamming.

[flower1024]

Not only should you steal as much as possible you should setup a passthrough to draw in more funds to invest in your scamming.

this seems to be a much better idea
now i just need something with a high return which guarantees me it stays for more than a year (otherwise it is not worth the effort to build up a passthrough)

...just kidding...

[Monster Tent]

Not only should you steal as much as possible you should setup a passthrough to draw in more funds to invest in your scamming.

this seems to be a much better idea
now i just need something with a high return which guarantees me it stays for more than a year (otherwise it is not worth the effort to build up a passthrough)

...just kidding...

Passing bad checks is a good business model