Scammer Tags- Pirate Pass Through operators ?

[the joint]

It must be demonstrably proven that 1) a PPT operator knew Pirate's operation was a scam and 2) said PPT operator did not disclose his knowledge of Pirate's scam to any/all investors and/or 3) said PPT operator did not give explicit and sufficient warning to all investors that there was a reasonable and real risk of some or total loss of deposits.

It sounds like, given the presence of number 2 above, you're responding to the argument that PPT operators scammed their investors. I don't think anyone's making that argument.

I read the thread title, and the OP, and gave my opinion with the knowledge that I have of the situation.  I wasn't really responding to anyone else specifically.  I'm just thinking within the context of the 'scammer tag' and what I think would also be consistent with the moderation on this forum.

The argument is that PPT operators scammed other Pirate investors by paying Pirate to make their customers the recipients of transfers they should have known were fraudulent -- transfers where Pirate obtained the money by representing that the funds would in fact be invested and where they knew that transfers to PPT operators were certainly not a legitimate investment of any kind. PPT operators paid Pirate to operate a Ponzi scheme for the benefit of their customers, and they either knew or should have known that this was what they were doing.

Thanks for the clarification, but I think that something similar to what I said earlier still applies here.  I think that if the PPT operators' knowledge of Pirate's operation is generally equal to their customers' knowledge, then I don't see how you can blame them.  The customers too "should have known" that this was what they were doing, so long as the PPT operators weren't withholding any information that would significantly affect peoples' opinions about investing.

Everyone knew Pirate's operation was almost certainly a scam. (And perfect certainty is never the standard.) No other possible business model was known and every previous such get rich quick scheme has proven to be a scam. Every single sign of a Ponzi scheme was present and there was never the slightest shred of any actual legitimate business activity. At least a dozen people were explaining on the forums why it had to be a scam. You can't stick your fingers in your ears and scream "LALALALALA!" while a dozen people are trying to tell you something and later claim you didn't know that.

Not everyone.  I spent a good time creating a few models that would stand a reasonable chance at creating the same returns and also mimic Pirate's payment schedule.  However, all of them required a nice chunk of initial capital and a 3rd party.  Also, if everyone thought Pirate's operation was a scam, then how did Pirate manage to vacuum 5% of the market?

Let's see if we really believe your argument though. Say another Pirate comes along with precisely the same pitch, the same vague business model, the same absence of any evidence of any actual investment activity. And say someone starts up a pass through to this new scheme, claiming they don't know it's a scam and they think it's legitimate for some reason. Because ... Bitcoin! Would you say they're doing anything wrong?

To answer your question, I don't think it's a black or white situation.  Time is important in this context.  The longer a 'mystery business' operates and generates consistent payments, the more one is inclined to believe the next payment will come.  Pirate operated without a hitch for a rather impressive length of time given his rate of interest and given the size of the market.  What if Pirate had continued business successfully for another two years (albeit with declining interest rates), would you say he's doing anything wrong?  How about after three years?  After five years?  Ten?  

The way your scenario is poised, there is little information to be had outside of "here's a new guy that reminds me of Pirate."  If instead it's "here's a new guy that has made me and many others a lot of money over the past few months and he's always punctual and he's never missed a payment," then that changes things a bit I'd say.

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[hannesnaude]

If I had evidence that they did know the true nature, I would absolutely consider them a scammer.

Fair enough. But at some point you have to assume that people know the obvious, even if you can't prove it. If I take a gun hold it against your head and blow your brains out and then claim that I had never encountered a gun before and didn't know that guns do that when you pull the trigger, do you think I would get away with it? Even if the prosecution was unable to find any proof of me having encountered a gun before, I would still be found guilty.

Joel argues that it is not plausible for PPT operators to claim they did not know BTCST was a ponzi, just as it would not be plausible for me to claim I did not know what a gun does when you pull the trigger. To take the analogy furter, individual investors were playing russian roulette (which is stupid but not criminal), but PPT operators were playing russian roulette with the gun held to someone else's head (which is criminal). And for them to turn around now and say they didn't know doesn't pass the sniff test.

[ShadowAlexey]

To my point, all we new that it could be a ponzi, pirate could simply run away, or that if he would die because of smt we wount get funds back...
So why would PPT operators be guilty, they gave opportunity to have high rates of return for everyone and possibility to get out when people want...
No one was offering glbse ppt before people asked to do so.

[hannesnaude]

OTOH (arguing with myself here  ) if everyone knew that it was a ponzi then PPT customers were willingly playing russian roulette and the operators can not be blamed.

Problem is that either EVERYONE knew it was a ponzi, in which case no-one was scammed, and therefore no-one is a scammer (including pirate), or not EVERYONE knew it was a ponzi in which case it is impossible to prove that the PPT operators were not among the few dumbasses who were not in on the game.

Still believe they should choose their own tags
SCAMMER or DUMBASS.
It has to be the one or the other.

[conspirosphere.tk]

i have the right to get paid for my time.

those of you demanding i do something have never actually offered any kind of compensation, they just make demands of me like i'm some kind of charity.

go negotiate with pirate if you want to.

if you want me to do it on your behalf, make me an offer or STFU.

Don't you have already been paid with a cut of your pass through? Or that was a payment just for you to pass BTC to Pirate but not for getting them back?

Anyway I offer 10% of my Bitcoinmax deposit if you find the way to get my BTC back -or 10% of whatever fraction of it you get.
How about it?

[Mageant]

Everyone knew Pirate's operation was almost certainly a scam.

I disagree. Many people believed Pirate had a legitimate operation.

Pirate was the first case in the Bitcoin community where a scammer went to great lengths to build up a good reputation and even started a proper business on the side (gpumax.com). This fooled a lot of people.

With hindsight now people should be smarter, of course.

[payb.tc]

i have the right to get paid for my time.

those of you demanding i do something have never actually offered any kind of compensation, they just make demands of me like i'm some kind of charity.

go negotiate with pirate if you want to.

if you want me to do it on your behalf, make me an offer or STFU.

Don't you have already been paid with a cut of your pass through? Or that was a payment just for you to pass BTC to Pirate but not for getting them back?

Anyway I offer 10% of my Bitcoinmax deposit if you find the way to get my BTC back -or 10% of whatever fraction of it you get.
How about it?

unfortunately no, i haven't been 'paid'. not with anything that can pay the mortgage anyway.

same goes for a % cut of your bitcoinmax account sorry... i have to put food on the table, so my time available for chasing magical pirate money is very limited.

[Puppet]

And paybtc had no right to deprive me of the opportunity to negotiate or whatever directly with pirate.  That's why he deserves a scammer tag.

i have the right to get paid for my time.

those of you demanding i do something have never actually offered any kind of compensation, they just make demands of me like i'm some kind of charity.

go negotiate with pirate if you want to.

if you want me to do it on your behalf, make me an offer or STFU.

Charity?
you passed an estimated 110000 BTC to pirate. Your cut was 0.1% or ~$1,200 per week. Not too bad for such a basic website, most people dont earn that much from a full time job. And that is assuming you did indeed pass the money through to Pirate, I would like to see some transaction IDs to validate that claim because for all I know, you knew exactly what was going on and pocketed a portion or all of those coins yourself. which would give you a very good reason not to want to give pirate your customer list.

[conspirosphere.tk]

unfortunately no, i haven't been 'paid'. not with anything that can pay the mortgage anyway.

So you did your PPT for charity?  So maybe we found a PPT operator who merits a scammer tag.

[payb.tc]

And paybtc had no right to deprive me of the opportunity to negotiate or whatever directly with pirate.  That's why he deserves a scammer tag.

i have the right to get paid for my time.

those of you demanding i do something have never actually offered any kind of compensation, they just make demands of me like i'm some kind of charity.

go negotiate with pirate if you want to.

if you want me to do it on your behalf, make me an offer or STFU.

Charity?
you passed an estimated 110000 BTC to pirate. Your cut was 0.1% or ~$1,200 per week. Not too bad for such a basic website, most people dont earn that much from a full time job. And that is assuming you did indeed pass the money through to Pirate, I would like to see some transaction IDs to validate that claim because for all I know, you knew exactly what was going on and pocketed a portion or all of those coins yourself. which would give you a very good reason not to want to give pirate your customer list.

my 'cut' was non-existent pirate money. i'm not sure how many more times i need to say that before people get it.

i wish i actually cashed out $1200 a week.

[conspirosphere.tk]

my 'cut' was non-existent pirate money. i'm not sure how many more times i need to say that before people get it.

i wish i actually cashed out $1200 a week.

That's a reason for you to try to recover something from Pirate.

[Puppet]

my 'cut' was non-existent pirate money. i'm not sure how many more times i need to say that before people get it.

i wish i actually cashed out $1200 a week.

That you didnt is no one's fault but your own. It doesnt really matter if you lost your cut playing poker or by reinvesting it in pirate, that is your problem.

[LoupGaroux]

And paybtc had no right to deprive me of the opportunity to negotiate or whatever directly with pirate.  That's why he deserves a scammer tag.

i have the right to get paid for my time.

those of you demanding i do something have never actually offered any kind of compensation, they just make demands of me like i'm some kind of charity.

go negotiate with pirate if you want to.

if you want me to do it on your behalf, make me an offer or STFU.

Charity?
you passed an estimated 110000 BTC to pirate. Your cut was 0.1% or ~$1,200 per week. Not too bad for such a basic website, most people dont earn that much from a full time job. And that is assuming you did indeed pass the money through to Pirate, I would like to see some transaction IDs to validate that claim because for all I know, you knew exactly what was going on and pocketed a portion or all of those coins yourself. which would give you a very good reason not to want to give pirate your customer list.

my 'cut' was non-existent pirate money. i'm not sure how many more times i need to say that before people get it.

i wish i actually cashed out $1200 a week.

Actually, your cut was money stolen from other victims. Start paying back in full or be painted as a co-conspirator, morally and legally. No grey zone at all.

[flower1024]

Actually, your cut was money stolen from other victims. Start paying back in full or be painted as a co-conspirator, morally and legally. No grey zone at all.

his cut was his fee for managing the bitcoinmax.com site - NOTHING more.
i don't expect him to pay that.

but want him to see to try to get some money back from pirate - which he refuses (except we pay him)

[LoupGaroux]

Actively solicited contributions to the fraud? Check.

Maintained resources to funnel funds collected for the fraud?  Check.

Shilled for the scammer, vehemently defended the scheme?  Check.

Hasn't made good on the money that went through his service and was delivered to pirate?  Check.

So, in what way is he any different than pirate? I cannot take a percentage of a crime and make it clean by calling it a "fee", it remains ill-gotten funds. The only exoneration in this scam is to refund, IN FULL, everything that each of the PPT operators took in. Anything less than that and they are accessories to felony fraud, and will be held accountable.

Felony fraud at a level which insures extradition from most countries in the world, including Thailand.

[payb.tc]

but want him to see to try to get some money back from pirate - which he refuses (except we pay him)

i don't have much choice in the matter... i'll do what i can, but i have to pay the bills, ya know? that likely means focusing on something else totally unrelated to bitcoin.

[Vandroiy]

Charity?
you passed an estimated 110000 BTC to pirate. Your cut was 0.1% or ~$1,200 per week. Not too bad for such a basic website, most people dont earn that much from a full time job. And that is assuming you did indeed pass the money through to Pirate, I would like to see some transaction IDs to validate that claim because for all I know, you knew exactly what was going on and pocketed a portion or all of those coins yourself. which would give you a very good reason not to want to give pirate your customer list.

I still don't believe these numbers. Who would run this on 0.1%? There surely were timing issues around.

payb.tc, how about a straight answer: what was the interest rate Bitcoinmax had in BS&T?

[dextryn]

Payb.tc, I don't understand why you're even giving this thread attention.  It's ridiculous to think that you're responsible for Pirate's nonsense.  After all it was clearly stated in your OP that if Pirate defaults then that's the risk all the investors take.  Never did you guarantee anything in any shape form or way.  The fact that you're a scam is, in my opinion, completely ridiculous.  It's obvious by this thread that money clearly clouds peoples judgement and intelligence.  

[Severian]

I cannot take a percentage of a crime and make it clean by calling it a "fee"

You could, but you'd be cutting into JPMorgan's turf.

[SgtSpike]

Payb.tc, I don't understand why you're even giving this thread attention.  It's ridiculous to think that you're responsible for Pirate's nonsense.  After all it was clearly stated in your OP that if Pirate defaults then that's the risk all the investors take.  Never did you guarantee anything in any shape form or way.  The fact that you're a scam is, in my opinion, completely ridiculous.  It's obvious by this thread that money clearly clouds peoples judgement and intelligence.  

I thought the same thing at first, but...

If someone robs a supermarket, and you help them out in doing so, are you at fault?
If someone sets fire to a house, and you help them out in doing so, are you at fault?
If someone steals a bunch of people's money in a ponzi, and you help them out in doing so, are you at fault?