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Author Topic: [DB.RCLMR] DeepBit "Reclaimer" ASICs  (Read 45752 times)
[Tycho]
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September 10, 2012, 10:39:27 PM
 #21

If You don't start with the 3rd round and have the option to send the output of the first complete sha-2 pipe you can use the chip for general sha-2 calculations.
Even with suboptimal designs only bruteforce tasks are possible.
You can't use it for general SHA calculations because that would require completely different IO for high bandwidth: you'll have to channel gigabytes per second in both directions.

Let's imagine that we want to mine bitcoins on a general purpose SHA256 device. Without using midstates we should load 80 bytes of block header first (two chunks of 64 bytes each), then get first hash result - 32 bytes. Then we load it again as a 64 byte chunk and get our result as 32 bytes. This equals to 256 bytes of total I/O per one dual hash, and just for 1 GH/s that would be... ~2.048 terabit per second.
May be there is a little mistake somewhere, but anyway making general purpose hasher and bruteforce hasher is not the same.

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September 10, 2012, 10:56:11 PM
 #22

I think the issue the others are trying to make is that at present:

1.  Your device is estimated to deliver at least 3 months after BFL.

2.  Your device is considerably more expensive then BFL.

3.  Your claim of performance is lower than BFL.

4.  You wont provide any more details than BFL.

I accept that BFL has made claims which they currently wont prove, but at this stage, if you want to compete, you need to either claim a better/ cheaper product, or wait until BFL fail to deliver.  Given the two options I think most people would currently pre order from BFL.

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[Tycho]
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September 10, 2012, 11:11:43 PM
 #23

$1299 / 40 GH/s = $32.475 per GH/s
$2800 / 80 GH/s = $35 per GH/s
I wouldn't say that this is "considerably more expensive" or "claim of performance lower".

But I still prefer giving minimal numbers yet to be on the safe side.

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September 11, 2012, 12:37:18 AM
 #24

I think the issue the others are trying to make is that at present:

1.  Your device is estimated to deliver at least 3 months after BFL.

2.  Your device is considerably more expensive then BFL.

3.  Your claim of performance is lower than BFL.

4.  You wont provide any more details than BFL.

I accept that BFL has made claims which they currently wont prove, but at this stage, if you want to compete, you need to either claim a better/ cheaper product, or wait until BFL fail to deliver.  Given the two options I think most people would currently pre order from BFL.

I'll give you #1, but 2 and 3 arn't really that true.

Compare to 2 SC Singles:
80GH/s for $2600 - requires a PC to connect to.
Or the Reclaimer   RM:
80GH/s for $2800 - does NOT require a PC to connect to.

Those 2 smaller ones tho? The 4 and 8 GH/s units? Those might be hard to sell at those prices.

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September 11, 2012, 02:56:50 AM
 #25

Estimated product performance

ReclaimerRM:80 GH/s$2800

Product description

Reclaimer RM is a 3U 19"-compatible 'rackmount' device which can be controlled via Ethernet connection and work directly at selected pool/bitcoind without any PC. You'll be able to mine on any pool or your own mining server.


Are you really going to need 3U of electronics/fans/etc for 80 Gh/s? BFL supposedly will be able to do 80 Gh/s with 2 tiny Single SC (which will be the same size as 2 current Singles), which suggest BFL will be massively more efficient in terms of Mh/Joule...
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September 11, 2012, 04:21:11 AM
 #26

Are you really going to need 3U of electronics/fans/etc for 80 Gh/s? BFL supposedly will be able to do 80 Gh/s with 2 tiny Single SC (which will be the same size as 2 current Singles), which suggest BFL will be massively more efficient in terms of Mh/Joule...

I think you're missing one small (but important factor):

Reclaimer RM is a 3U 19"-compatible 'rackmount' device which can be controlled via Ethernet connection and work directly at selected pool/bitcoind without any PC. You'll be able to mine on any pool or your own mining server.

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mrb
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September 11, 2012, 04:50:17 AM
 #27

Are you really going to need 3U of electronics/fans/etc for 80 Gh/s? BFL supposedly will be able to do 80 Gh/s with 2 tiny Single SC (which will be the same size as 2 current Singles), which suggest BFL will be massively more efficient in terms of Mh/Joule...

I think you're missing one small (but important factor):

Reclaimer RM is a 3U 19"-compatible 'rackmount' device which can be controlled via Ethernet connection and work directly at selected pool/bitcoind without any PC. You'll be able to mine on any pool or your own mining server.

I saw this detail. But isn't it irrelevant? All you should need to drive 2 x Single SC is a wallet-sized ~3W Raspberry Pi.
My question is why would Tycho need a full-blown 3U enclosure for similar hashing capacity?

I am genuinely curious and trying to learn more about the product to evaluate my investment choices.
[Tycho]
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September 11, 2012, 09:50:05 AM
 #28

I saw this detail. But isn't it irrelevant? All you should need to drive 2 x Single SC is a wallet-sized ~3W Raspberry Pi.
My question is why would Tycho need a full-blown 3U enclosure for similar hashing capacity?
Reclaimer RM will contain same boards as smaller devices, plugged into a backplane. Technically it's possible to shrink it down to 2U, but 3U would also allow usage of common ATX PSUs with top fans when more powerful devices will be available.

Note that this 3U device is expected to provide much more hashpower with additional modules installed - not all the space inside is occupied at 80 GH/s.
All Reclaimer devices are designed with expansion in mind so if someone releases faster products we can just switch to soldering more chips on same modules or plug more modules in RM.

RM enclosure design is not done yet, so changes are possible. I can agree that 2U may be more suitable for collocation or filling 19" racks entirely. We will check if mining module, connector and backplane fit safely in 2U height and post updates in case of any changes.

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September 11, 2012, 11:09:08 AM
 #29

1U and 2U rackmount case hardware is *EXPENSIVE*, with 3U you can still use standard heatsinks etc. Maybe with some luck some models on 2U.
A proper low height heatsink is going to easily cost 60$ alone.
Then add a properly sized PSU there, and your 750W Corsair is starting to look cheap.
Then for lower height you need to use smaller diameter fans which are by ORDER OF MAGNITUDE less efficient, infact, in modern 1U server the biggest electrical expense can be at times the fans!
Because adding depth to fan is not efficient, but a must do in small diameter, and to drive sufficient airflow you need to spin it at really high rpm these fans can  use considerable amount of electricy to even reach half of what an 230mm fan @ 2.5W can do. Some say these might use even upto 10-15W *EACH* and you need like 4 of them (that's why they are also RPM controlled)

Since depth of a rackmount chassis is not set you can make half depth chassis, and you can load any rack in standard setup DC from both sides, mount them from both sides and drive the hot air to the center of rack for gravitational dispension of heat by rack top ventilation hole, creating a natural rack zone hot and cold aisles Smiley
How well it works depends on the DC, some DCs don't have hot and cold aisles, others does. I would use one without hot + cold aisles for this setup other than which sucks hot air directly from top of the rack and keeps everything else cool Smiley

Ofc, to get it to work efficiently you need fill up the whole rack, which means that even on 42U rack you need 27 (1 slot for the switch) of these, or atleast near so putting separator plates makes sense Smiley
That's 75600$ investment per rack for a total of 2.16TH, at a operating cost of roughly 500€ a month depending upon location, electrical rates etc. plus network capacity. many DCs include 10-100mbps with the rack, not really free but "cheap", and backup connection probably will cost about 30-40€/mo for crossconnect + 50-150€ a month depending on provider, how low they are willing to go.

If someone wants a low cost location for several Us we should have spare capacity in near months

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September 11, 2012, 02:20:49 PM
 #30

I concur, I allready have a PC, so I actually don't wan't the miner to be able to mine standalone, what/who is the intended audience, multibillion rack farms!?

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September 11, 2012, 02:44:54 PM
 #31

I concur, I allready have a PC, so I actually don't wan't the miner to be able to mine standalone, what/who is the intended audience, multibillion rack farms!?

there ARE going to be big mining rack farms, so someone might as well cater to them. when you're looking at mining operations as a business i could see these being useful after a certain point.
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September 11, 2012, 06:49:35 PM
 #32

I concur, I allready have a PC, so I actually don't wan't the miner to be able to mine standalone, what/who is the intended audience, multibillion rack farms!?
Mining via PC is possible too. But in most cases direct mining is MUCH more convenient.

As for the audience... Why, yes. That's what rackmount devices are for.
Plug it in somewhere, control via IP from home. There are no restrictions on what pools/servers can be used.

May be other types of Reclaimer-based devices will be created too. And we are planning to offer chips for sale if someone wants to produce their own miner.

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September 11, 2012, 08:16:29 PM
 #33

Will p2pool be supported at reasonable stale rates? Ie. can your product be used to find shares in the p2pool share chain, as opposed to Bitcoin blocks?
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September 11, 2012, 08:23:02 PM
 #34

Will p2pool be supported at reasonable stale rates? Ie. can your product be used to find shares in the p2pool share chain, as opposed to Bitcoin blocks?
Yes, shares are reported immediately, no need to wait for entire nonce range scan.

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September 11, 2012, 08:28:31 PM
 #35

Will p2pool be supported at reasonable stale rates? Ie. can your product be used to find shares in the p2pool share chain, as opposed to Bitcoin blocks?
Yes, shares are reported immediately, no need to wait for entire nonce range scan.
Will you be able to cancel a nonce range and start with new work at anytime? I believe that was one of the issues with Singles on P2P, was it not?

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September 11, 2012, 08:58:04 PM
 #36

Will you be able to cancel a nonce range and start with new work at anytime? I believe that was one of the issues with Singles on P2P, was it not?
That problem with p2pool was caused by Single's inability to report shares until the entire nonce range is processed, AFAIK.

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September 11, 2012, 10:36:23 PM
 #37

^ It seems this only solves half the problem. When a new p2pool block is announced the miner needs to start working on a new share immediately, or else work is spent finding a share that has already been found.

Quote
The fix would be a simple firmware change to make the FPGA report a share as soon as one is found. That would solve half the problem. The next change would be to allow the FPGA to start working on a new work unit when a new one is available without having to finish the previous. That would solve the other half of the problem.
http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/3286/why-does-the-bfl-single-produce-50-stales-with-p2pool
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September 12, 2012, 12:25:12 AM
 #38

^ It seems this only solves half the problem. When a new p2pool block is announced the miner needs to start working on a new share immediately, or else work is spent finding a share that has already been found.
Yes, of course that's how it should work.
That's the reason why we invented long polling, after all :)

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September 12, 2012, 12:40:12 AM
 #39

Competition is always a good thing. And depending on how many people order BFL products and how long it takes to deliver X units, it could be quite awhile before all orders that are placed in say sept/oct of this year are filled.

Also, depending on how this is setup, it could be substantially more convenient from a placement/cabling perspective compared to trying to deal with 20 individual units vs a rack.

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September 14, 2012, 08:42:24 AM
 #40

Im curious how you expect to sell any of these then. Your price/GH is significantly above BFL, and you will probably be ~6 months later. Are you just betting on BFL not delivering?
My price per GH/s is sometimes lower than some of our competitors.
Also, why would I make our prices much lower if there are no available alternatives at this moment ?

Since you wont have hardware until next year either, the alternatives are plentyful. They dont exist now, just like your product doesnt exist now, but  alternatives promise much faster delivery and better GH/$. I honestly  dont understand why anyone would preorder your asics instead.


Maybe some would believe this is more realistic and less pipe dreamy

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