Bitcoin Forum
November 25, 2017, 12:56:45 AM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.15.1  [Torrent].
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: « 1 [2]  All
  Print  
Author Topic: Anti Fractional Reserve Day  (Read 3290 times)
Severian
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 476



View Profile
September 11, 2012, 05:31:12 AM
 #21

It is not.

I made the same mistake you did in jumping the gun and thinking the discussion was FRB and not fractional reserve as it relates to bitcoin.

Quote
they pretty much always get their fund back in time

That doesn't fill me with confidence. Fractional reserve for a limited commodity like bitcoin would cause instability in the price and in the market.

Fractional reserve gold is a bad idea and an even worse one for bitcoin. Bitcoin was created, in part, to escape the manipulations of FRB.
1511571405
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1511571405

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1511571405
Reply with quote  #2

1511571405
Report to moderator
1511571405
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1511571405

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1511571405
Reply with quote  #2

1511571405
Report to moderator
1511571405
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1511571405

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1511571405
Reply with quote  #2

1511571405
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1511571405
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1511571405

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1511571405
Reply with quote  #2

1511571405
Report to moderator
grondilu
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1134


View Profile
September 11, 2012, 05:49:35 AM
 #22

Fractional reserve gold is a bad idea and an even worse one for bitcoin. Bitcoin was created, in part, to escape the manipulations of FRB.

The big difference is that it is much easier, and virtually costless, to withdraw your funds.  So FRB is much more armless with bitcoins because people can have most of their savings on their own PC.

Also, there is very little you can do against that.  But I guess the proposed idea on this thread is meant exactly for this purpose:  putting some pressure on exchanges so they are extremely cautious in their fractional reserve rates, and ultimately they don't use FRB at all.

So, the idea does actually make some sense.  My bad.
dissipate
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 289


View Profile
September 11, 2012, 10:23:42 AM
 #23

I support this. Until the exchanges have independent account balance audits from a reputable firm, things like anti-fractional reserve day are a must. Personally, I have very few coins on any exchange already because none of them have proper auditing or insurance.
hashman
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 915



View Profile
September 11, 2012, 03:14:01 PM
 #24

I support this. Until the exchanges have independent account balance audits from a reputable firm, things like anti-fractional reserve day are a must. Personally, I have very few coins on any exchange already because none of them have proper auditing or insurance.

Anti fractional reserve decade sounds better. 
Nobody wants a collapse of the countereit system in a day.  That would be messy.
A good target is 15 years.  How are we doing towards that target?  Metrics anyone? 
arklan
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1498



View Profile
September 12, 2012, 11:59:01 AM
 #25

i keep mine on in my personal wallet.dat anyway. Cheesy
zyk
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 224


View Profile
September 12, 2012, 12:44:26 PM
 #26

Yes...let them eat cake.....25. Okt. !

Thanks Zyk
GernMiester
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 284


View Profile
September 13, 2012, 01:34:13 PM
 #27


Why do you want to destroy a system that hundreds of millions people are happy with (or at least, do not complain), when you can just step away from it peacefully?

If people knew about how the banking system works (almost no one does) they would surely NOT be happy.  Ignorance is bliss for those hundreds of millions. They all likely believe the government makes money.

Go around and ask one question..  Where does money come from?  The answers you get will almost certainly all be WRONG!
knight22
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1372


--------------->¿?


View Profile
September 13, 2012, 03:02:29 PM
 #28


Why do you want to destroy a system that hundreds of millions people are happy with (or at least, do not complain), when you can just step away from it peacefully?

If people knew about how the banking system works (almost no one does) they would surely NOT be happy.  Ignorance is bliss for those hundreds of millions. They all likely believe the government makes money.

Go around and ask one question..  Where does money come from?  The answers you get will almost certainly all be WRONG!

+1

People are not aware of this system, that’s why they don’t complain about it.
Stay passive is a dangerous thing.

Soros Shorts
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1603



View Profile
September 14, 2012, 10:51:10 AM
 #29


Why do you want to destroy a system that hundreds of millions people are happy with (or at least, do not complain), when you can just step away from it peacefully?

If people knew about how the banking system works (almost no one does) they would surely NOT be happy.  Ignorance is bliss for those hundreds of millions. They all likely believe the government makes money.

Go around and ask one question..  Where does money come from?  The answers you get will almost certainly all be WRONG!
Ok, I'll bite. Where does money (fiat money) come from?

Remember, we are not talking about the purchasing power, wealth or value that the money might represent.
grondilu
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1134


View Profile
September 14, 2012, 04:47:08 PM
 #30

Why do you want to destroy a system that hundreds of millions people are happy with (or at least, do not complain), when you can just step away from it peacefully?

If people knew about how the banking system works (almost no one does) they would surely NOT be happy.  Ignorance is bliss for those hundreds of millions. They all likely believe the government makes money.

Go around and ask one question..  Where does money come from?  The answers you get will almost certainly all be WRONG!

I'm not responsible for other people's ignorance.  Whatever are the reasons why they are happy with the system, those reasons are not my concern.  I'm not in their head, and I'm not sure I understand the system better than they do, anyway.  Maybe YOU are the one who is wrong.

There really is no point launching a croisade against a this monetary system since you are not forced to hold fiat money.   Just buy precious metals, bitcoins or whatever.
the_thing
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 224



View Profile
September 14, 2012, 11:12:24 PM
 #31

Why do you want to destroy a system that hundreds of millions people are happy with (or at least, do not complain), when you can just step away from it peacefully?

If people knew about how the banking system works (almost no one does) they would surely NOT be happy.  Ignorance is bliss for those hundreds of millions. They all likely believe the government makes money.

Go around and ask one question..  Where does money come from?  The answers you get will almost certainly all be WRONG!

I'm not responsible for other people's ignorance.  Whatever are the reasons why they are happy with the system, those reasons are not my concern.  I'm not in their head, and I'm not sure I understand the system better than they do, anyway.  Maybe YOU are the one who is wrong.

There really is no point launching a croisade against a this monetary system since you are not forced to hold fiat money.   Just buy precious metals, bitcoins or whatever.
You're not forced to hold fiat money, but your life is affected heavily by the monetary system. I'm not going to argue whether FRS is good with fiat, but as far as I remember, Bitcoin wasn't originally meant to use it. Bitcoiners think exchanges don't use FRS and act accordingly. Thus if exchanges use it, they are being scammed and lied to. We should try to find out. Or just wait and hope.

grondilu
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1134


View Profile
September 15, 2012, 01:52:31 AM
 #32

Bitcoiners think exchanges don't use FRS and act accordingly.

I'm a bitcoiner and I have very little doubt that some exchange do indeed some FRS.
Why ?  Just because they can.

If you have a customer that has been giving you 100BTC so that you just hold them, and if you haven't heard of this guy for months, it's really difficult to resist the temptation of using at least a fraction of this money to do some business for your profit.   If the guy claims his money, but you have only 90BTC on his account because you used 10 BTC for something (a loan or whatever), hell you just have to take 10BTC from an other sleeping account.

It's that easy, and nobody has to know.

That's why when I send money to an exchange, I always presume that they will use it for some stuff, without explicitly telling me.


Quote
Thus if exchanges use it, they are being scammed and lied to. We should try to find out. Or just wait and hope.

No.  Just be cautious and do not put too much money in the same time in an exchange.
Dabs
Staff
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1876



View Profile
September 15, 2012, 02:20:59 AM
 #33

Banks work similarly. They take depositor's money. They write down the amount. They lend it to a loaner. The loaner uses the money for business, for personal, for tuition, for fixing a house, for paying other bills, whatever. The loaner pays back upon loan maturity, or the loaner defaults in which case the bank gets the collateral, a house, a car, whatever.

The bank then pay's interest on the depositor's money.

There are hundreds or millions of depositors. There are thousands of people taking out loans. In the end, the bank makes money, and this is just on money; we're not yet talking about investments.

If everyone withdraws their money, the bank runs. Not everyone is going to withdraw their money from a particular bank unless it has had some bad publicity. And when people can't withdraw their money because of the bank run, then the bank has really bad publicity now. It has happened to some banks in my country. They simply closed. Someone started a rumor about the bank being in trouble, then people started withdrawing all their money, and of course the bank has to honor the ones who did it first, until they ran out of money, and then they were in real trouble.

Escrow Service (Services) - GPG ID: 32AD7565, OTC ID: Dabs
All messages concerning escrow or with bitcoin addresses are GPG signed. Please verify.
CompTIA A+, Microsoft Certified Professional, MCSA: Windows 10; Windows Server 2012, MCSE: Cloud Platform and Infrastructure; Productivity; Messaging
blakdawg
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 113


View Profile
September 16, 2012, 09:35:15 AM
 #34

I think this is a great idea. I would suggest framing it as "find out if the exchange is honest" day - the whole "fractional reserve banking" thing, while accurate and correct, gets people distracted with arguments about monetary policy, as this thread amply demonstrates.

If the exchanges want to hide behind "we need time to figure out if the request is legitimate and move funds from our cold wallet", then that's fine, maybe this needs to be "keep the bank honest WEEK", instead. The point is to maximize the stress on the exchange, and if it takes a week to reach that point, fine.

I am worried about exchanges engaging in fractional reserve banking for two reasons: the first is that it lets them hide security problems/losses, the second is that it may be very tempting for them to gamble with customer money in the various Ponzi schemes that are still floating around. If everything works out nicely, they give back my BTC at 0% interest, and they keep the crazy Ponzi interest. Things don't work out so nicely, well, they'll probably have a lot of excuses about why they can't give my money back. So I get all of the risk of a Ponzi and none of the profit. Yum!

If someone wants to run an exchange that does fractional reserve, and other people want to deposit their funds there, well, I don't have a dog in that fight, and it would be stupid to try to stress that system with a coordinated mass withdrawal.

On the other hand, I want any financial intermediary I deal with to be very clear with me about whether or not, when I deposit some BTC, that precise amount is stored somewhere and is (more or less) immediately available to be returned to me at any time.

There's a practical reason for people to participate, even if they're not personally worried about fractional reserve - if they don't withdraw, but everyone else does, and that entity was engaged in a little undisclosed fractional reserve banking . . . then they may never see their funds again. So even people who hate the idea are better off participating.

I think it might be better to wait more than 2 weeks before launching to provide time for education & marketing of the idea.

However, I also have two arguments against the plan (though, on balance, I personally support it):

1. It would be a great time for bad guys to deploy wallet-hijacking trojans, since value will be in local wallets, and the users are less likely to be accustomed to using their local wallets and perhaps careless with their security.

2. It would be a good opportunity for someone to make trouble by DDOS'ing exchange(s), or other infrastructure, and profiting by shorting BTC, creating a panic to cause mass sell-offs of BTC as funds move to other currencies, leading to a price drop, and then covering their short positions at the new low price.
SuperHakka
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 196



View Profile
September 16, 2012, 11:27:35 AM
 #35

What do you have against fractional reserve, anyway??   Banks do not lie to you   ...

Why do you want to destroy a system that hundreds of millions people are happy with (or at least, do not complain), when you can just step away from it peacefully?
Fractional reserve is an entirely unwholesome and ethically bankrupt way to manage a nation's currency. Hundreds of millions of people are "happy" with it because they don't know the first thing about what's really going on. Make yourself a hot cup of tea and watch this educationalist material:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0K5_JE_gOys

'First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they attack you. Then you win.' - Mohandas Gandhi
"Whenever I'm about to do something, I think, 'Would an idiot do this?' and if he would, I do not do that thing." - Dwight Schrute
grondilu
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1134


View Profile
September 16, 2012, 05:25:50 PM
 #36

Fractional reserve is an entirely unwholesome and ethically bankrupt way to manage a nation's currency. Hundreds of millions of people are "happy" with it because they don't know the first thing about what's really going on. Make yourself a hot cup of tea and watch this educationalist material:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0K5_JE_gOys

Watched it already many times several years ago.  I kind of grew up since.
Pages: « 1 [2]  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!