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Author Topic: Anti Fractional Reserve Day  (Read 3287 times)
the_thing
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September 10, 2012, 05:52:57 PM
 #1

Anti Fractional Reserve Day

I decided to make a a thread about Come-from-Beyond's wonderful idea so everyone can see it, discuss it and suggest the date.

I suggest to set a date for "Anti Fractional Reserve Day". During this day everyone should withdraw his/her coins from exchanges, webwallets and similar services to a personal wallet. And deposit the coins back in 24 hours. This "trick" will definitely help us to keep Bitcoin economy "healthy".

Anti Fractional Reserve Day

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JoelKatz
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September 10, 2012, 05:58:20 PM
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I suggest to set a date for "Anti Fractional Reserve Day". During this day everyone should withdraw his/her coins from exchanges, webwallets and similar services to a personal wallet. And deposit the coins back in 24 hours. This "trick" will definitely help us to keep Bitcoin economy "healthy".
There are really only two reasons to do this:

1) You want to make sure that businesses that promise not to keep fractional reserves are keeping their promises.

2) You want to pressure businesses that don't make such promises into not keeping fractional reserves even where that makes business sense.

I fully support 1. But 2 just seems like a way to raise everyone's costs.

Although I guess I could see it in the case of businesses like Mt.Gox that are very vague about whether they are or aren't keeping a fractional reserve. As a way to force transparency, that might be a good thing.

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the_thing
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September 10, 2012, 06:01:44 PM
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I suggest to set a date for "Anti Fractional Reserve Day". During this day everyone should withdraw his/her coins from exchanges, webwallets and similar services to a personal wallet. And deposit the coins back in 24 hours. This "trick" will definitely help us to keep Bitcoin economy "healthy".
There are really only two reasons to do this:

1) You want to make sure that businesses that promise not to keep fractional reserves are keeping their promises.

2) You want to pressure businesses that don't make such promises into not keeping fractional reserves even where that makes business sense.

I fully support 1. But 2 just seems like a way to raise everyone's costs.

Although I guess I could see it in the case of businesses like Mt.Gox that are very vague about whether they are or aren't keeping a fractional reserve. As a way to force transparency, that might be a good thing.
What date do you suggest?

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September 10, 2012, 06:06:05 PM
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October 25th

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gbl08ma
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September 10, 2012, 06:10:23 PM
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There is most certainly a number of people who won't adhere to this initiative, and the result is that not all of the BTC is withdrawn from all the services. So, how can we be sure the services which claim not to keep a fractional reserve aren't, actually, doing the opposite?

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September 10, 2012, 06:11:30 PM
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There is most certainly a number of people who won't adhere to this initiative, and the result is that not all of the BTC is withdrawn from all the services. So, how can we be sure the services which claim not to keep a fractional reserve aren't, actually, doing the opposite?
The best way is to insist on third-party audits. But if you can get even 30% cooperation on something like this, it could make a difference.

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Come-from-Beyond
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September 10, 2012, 06:15:07 PM
 #7

October 25th

It would be interesting to hear why October 25th. Or any other date.
the_thing
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September 10, 2012, 06:15:43 PM
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There is most certainly a number of people who won't adhere to this initiative, and the result is that not all of the BTC is withdrawn from all the services. So, how can we be sure the services which claim not to keep a fractional reserve aren't, actually, doing the opposite?
You don't need everyone to participate. Actually, you don't even need the majority to accomplish it. Institutions that use fractional reserve typically have only a small fraction of what they are supposed to have at disposal. Hence the term fractional reserve.

Come-from-Beyond
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September 10, 2012, 06:16:38 PM
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There is most certainly a number of people who won't adhere to this initiative, and the result is that not all of the BTC is withdrawn from all the services. So, how can we be sure the services which claim not to keep a fractional reserve aren't, actually, doing the opposite?

We can't be sure. But it still could have some effect. Like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_Day.
the_thing
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September 10, 2012, 06:19:48 PM
 #10

October 25th

It would be interesting to hear why October 25th. Or any other date.
I suggest to do it in about two weeks. It's long enough to get all participants ready (for example right now I couldn't do it) but not long enough for everyone to forget/lose interest or for exchanges to make some nasty counter-moves.

grondilu
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September 10, 2012, 06:20:41 PM
 #11

This really is a silly idea.  For plenty of reasons.

Do you know Eric Cantona?  The soccer player?

He made exactly the same call in december 2010.   When you start to have the same political ideas as a soccer player, it can't be good, can it?

In a nutshell, if you don't like the fractional reserve system, fine, just drawback all your money, buy precious metals or bitcoins, do not ever borrow money from a bank, and that's about it.

Why do people always refuse to do anything unless millions of people do as them?  This is just a silly group behavior.

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September 10, 2012, 06:25:17 PM
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I suggest the date when bitcoin was launched

the_thing
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September 10, 2012, 06:26:51 PM
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This really is a silly idea.  For plenty of reasons.

Do you know Eric Cantona?  The soccer player?

He made exactly the same call in december 2010.   When you start to have the same political ideas as a soccer player, it can't be good, can it?
Grin hahaha.. you made me laugh. Thank you.
However, I don't think it is a silly idea. Bitcoin is still small enough to make this work. Of course Cantona was unsuccessful on the global scale. Everyone knew it was nearly impossible and therefore everyone acted accordingly. No one participated.

Why do people always refuse to do anything unless millions of people do as them?  This is just a silly group behavior.
Because we need to coordinate such efforts to make them work. Sometimes individual behavior is good. Sometimes you have to cooperate in groups to succeed. There's nothing wrong about group effort. It is how civilization was born.

grondilu
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September 11, 2012, 05:04:31 AM
 #14

Because we need to coordinate such efforts to make them work. Sometimes individual behavior is good. Sometimes you have to cooperate in groups to succeed. There's nothing wrong about group effort. It is how civilization was born.

What do you have against fractional reserve, anyway??   Banks do not lie to you.  On your balance sheet it is written "credit" and "debit", not "deposit".  So the bank does not make any mystery of the fact the money you "own", is actually some money the bank owes you.  If you don't believe in its ability to repay you on time, fine, just get your money back right now.  I don't get why you should wait for other people to do the same thing in the same time.  If you do that, then yes indeed the bank might not be able to pay you.  Bravo:  you'd be creating the very thing you were advocating against.  What for exactly?  To prove your point?

Why do you want to destroy a system that hundreds of millions people are happy with (or at least, do not complain), when you can just step away from it peacefully?
Severian
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September 11, 2012, 05:11:09 AM
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What do you have against fractional reserve, anyway??  

Because it's theft of labor by legal decree.
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September 11, 2012, 05:14:07 AM
 #16

A proper exchange with a cold wallet is not going to be able to do this in one day with full security.  They will either need to delay and check, and do the moves in increments to be sure it is legitimate.  You will not know if they really had all of the coins or not as it would end up getting spread over several days.  If they can do it all in one day they either didn't check hard enough or they had no cold storage and didn't check at all.  

Which is worse, fractional reserve or bad security?

Come-from-Beyond
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September 11, 2012, 05:17:15 AM
 #17

What do you have against fractional reserve, anyway??   Banks do not lie to you...

We are talking about Bitcoin, not banks.
grondilu
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September 11, 2012, 05:19:38 AM
 #18

What do you have against fractional reserve, anyway??   Banks do not lie to you...

We are talking about Bitcoin, not banks.

Oops.  I totally missed that.   Sorry.


PS.  Well, the idea is more or less the same, anyway.
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September 11, 2012, 05:23:14 AM
 #19

A proper exchange with a cold wallet is not going to be able to do this in one day with full security.  They will either need to delay and check, and do the moves in increments to be sure it is legitimate.  You will not know if they really had all of the coins or not as it would end up getting spread over several days.  If they can do it all in one day they either didn't check hard enough or they had no cold storage and didn't check at all.  

Which is worse, fractional reserve or bad security?


Very good point. Perhaps, exchange owners should move all coins to a hot storage during that day and monitor withdrawals. Of coz, owners can refuse to do this, but if this lowers their credibility, they'll think twice.
grondilu
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September 11, 2012, 05:25:19 AM
 #20

Because it's theft of labor by legal decree.

It is not.

The fact that not all customers withdraw their funds in the same time allows them to use statistics in order to increase their ability to repay their debts towards their clients.  There is nothing wrong in a clever use of statistics, clients know what is happening and they pretty much always get their fund back in time, which is the only thing that was promised.  So no, this is not a theft in any way.
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