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Author Topic: It seems irreversible payments are a paradigm shift: Scams everywhere.  (Read 8104 times)
kjj
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September 11, 2012, 03:59:10 PM
 #61

If you are on the internet, the odds are VERY good that your entire notion of money is as bookkeeping, rather than something physical.  Cash is something that you use despite the inconvenience in the few cases when you must use it, it is not your default.

Bookkeeping is very easy to undo, and we all grew up in that world.  The shift to bitcoin is huge, and we all have a lot that we must unlearn.

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mobodick
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September 11, 2012, 04:02:01 PM
 #62

In a regulated environment it would not have been possible to do these things peer-to-peer in such a "low overhead" way, and only bloated corporations would get to do them.

Bullshit and you know it.
(That's actually quite a discourteous way to conduct a discussion, mobodick.)

Consider, for example, whether an individual such as Nefario can set up his own stock exchange in a regulated environment. Only bloated corporations get to do that. Yet in an unregulated peer-to-peer environment the overheads are so low that one person can implement a stock exchange. How cool is that!
That was a bit toungue in cheek, sorry you didn't get it.
And you still have to define what kind of regulation you talk about (that in this case would prevent Nefario from setting up his own stock exchange).
Applying the word 'regulated environment' is meaningless in bitcoin land.
We do not have a regulated environment.
The regulations happening in fiat for the most part do not (yet) apply to bitcoin so you can't transplant the fiat idea of 'regulation' to bitcoin.
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September 11, 2012, 04:04:52 PM
 #63

Regulation will come but it will likely come from individuals setting standards in acceptable trade etiquette for themselves and others. We won't need an authority to do this.

I've spoken against this from time-to-time but I now realize how immature that was of me.

Things take time to evolve and grow. 
mobodick
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September 11, 2012, 04:08:20 PM
 #64

I don't think an individual so easily scammed is someone those of us doing well in this Bitcoin free market should be consulting on how best to proceed.  Survival of the fittest is the name of the game here, and your mismanagement of your funds has proven you do not have what it takes.  If wealth is the product of man’s capacity to think, allowing yourself to become victim to a scam and lose your wealth is evidence of a total lack of any such capacity.  Our only choice is to use government regulation to protect you from your own lack of clarity.  
Define fitness..
Because a.t.m. i see scammers being very very fit from a bitcoin aquisition perspective.


Absolutely, playing fair is not a virtue in this sort of unregulated free market system.  There are no negative consequences for playing unfairly.  You need communal values and firm government oversight to make sure honest business is the more logical path.  Bitcoin will not reach it's destiny as the currency of the future until we have those things.

The only way to stop the scammers from having such a prominent place in the food chain is to start protecting the less fit scam victims like Atlas from themselves.

You don't need government, you need a stick.
And you need clear rules about when the stick is applied.
And everyone should agree to this before being alowed to use bitcoin.


Sounds like a governing body.

Governing body != government.

edit: and even then, it doesn't have to be a body as such. It could be intrinsic rules governing the network.
I mean, there are at this time rules governing the network.
Or do you think that bitcoins magically find their way from one account to another?
It's all based on rules that govern the behavior of the network.


The people who make the rules sound like a governing body. 

Yes, satoshi is regulating the crap out of us.
Ever got angry because difficulty jumps?
Thats Satoshis protocols governing bitcoin.
Ever transfered bitcoin and happy that it actually arrived?
Thats Satoshis protocols governing bitcoin.

In the end SOMEONE needs to decide SOMETHING for there to be ANYTHING usefull.

Maybe we need some democratic process to decide the further governing of bitcoin.
It is badly needed and Satoshi won't help here.
It's up to us.
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September 11, 2012, 04:10:29 PM
 #65


Maybe we need some democratic process to decide the further governing of bitcoin.
It is badly needed and Satoshi won't help here.
It's up to us.


This is how the dev team works you know...
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September 11, 2012, 04:10:56 PM
 #66

I don't think an individual so easily scammed is someone those of us doing well in this Bitcoin free market should be consulting on how best to proceed.  Survival of the fittest is the name of the game here, and your mismanagement of your funds has proven you do not have what it takes.  If wealth is the product of man’s capacity to think, allowing yourself to become victim to a scam and lose your wealth is evidence of a total lack of any such capacity.  Our only choice is to use government regulation to protect you from your own lack of clarity.  
Define fitness..
Because a.t.m. i see scammers being very very fit from a bitcoin aquisition perspective.


Absolutely, playing fair is not a virtue in this sort of unregulated free market system.  There are no negative consequences for playing unfairly.  You need communal values and firm government oversight to make sure honest business is the more logical path.  Bitcoin will not reach it's destiny as the currency of the future until we have those things.

The only way to stop the scammers from having such a prominent place in the food chain is to start protecting the less fit scam victims like Atlas from themselves.

You don't need government, you need a stick.
And you need clear rules about when the stick is applied.
And everyone should agree to this before being alowed to use bitcoin.


Sounds like a governing body.

Governing body != government.

edit: and even then, it doesn't have to be a body as such. It could be intrinsic rules governing the network.
I mean, there are at this time rules governing the network.
Or do you think that bitcoins magically find their way from one account to another?
It's all based on rules that govern the behavior of the network.


The people who make the rules sound like a governing body. 

Yes, satoshi is regulating the crap out of us.
Ever got angry because difficulty jumps?
Thats Satoshis protocols governing bitcoin.
Ever transfered bitcoin and happy that it actually arrived?
Thats Satoshis protocols governing bitcoin.

In the end SOMEONE needs to decide SOMETHING for there to be ANYTHING usefull.

Maybe we need some democratic process to decide the further governing of bitcoin.
It is badly needed and Satoshi won't help here.
It's up to us.


Mobodick really does have a point.

It can be summed up as this: Anarchy doesn't mean no rules. It means no rulers. As always, there will be set etiquette in any society where people desire respect for themselves and their property. The form of governance that regulates and enforces this etiquette may vary.
mobodick
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September 11, 2012, 04:11:51 PM
 #67

Regulation will come but it will likely come from individuals setting standards in acceptable trade etiquette for themselves and others. We won't need an authority to do this.

I've spoken against this from time-to-time but I now realize how immature that was of me.

Things take time to evolve and grow. 
Individuals setting standards in acceptable trade etiquette for themselves and others == authority

And then, if authority could be expressed as a mutually agreed upon change to the bitcoin protocol, why the hell not?
 
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September 11, 2012, 04:13:42 PM
 #68


Maybe we need some democratic process to decide the further governing of bitcoin.
It is badly needed and Satoshi won't help here.
It's up to us.


This is how the dev team works you know...
It could not be otherwise.
I just suggest that this process should extend to the community as a whole and be advertised as such.
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September 11, 2012, 04:14:45 PM
 #69

Regulation will come but it will likely come from individuals setting standards in acceptable trade etiquette for themselves and others. We won't need an authority to do this.

I've spoken against this from time-to-time but I now realize how immature that was of me.

Things take time to evolve and grow.  
Individuals setting standards in acceptable trade etiquette for themselves and others == authority

And then, if authority could be expressed as a mutually agreed upon change to the bitcoin protocol, why the hell not?
 
A mutually agreed upon change to Bitcoin or anything else is no matter of authority but a mutual and voluntary exchange of desires. Authority implies power, coercion, something placed above others and their desires. That is not the case in a self-regulating society.

In essence, I agree with you but not your terminology.

When someone sets a price for themselves and their participation, that is far from implying power over other people unless you believe people belong to people; ergo, we're entitled to one another. It's just implying power over themselves.

If you're advocating for authority over oneself, then I agree with you completely.
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September 11, 2012, 04:23:08 PM
 #70

Regulation will come but it will likely come from individuals setting standards in acceptable trade etiquette for themselves and others. We won't need an authority to do this.

I've spoken against this from time-to-time but I now realize how immature that was of me.

Things take time to evolve and grow. 
Individuals setting standards in acceptable trade etiquette for themselves and others == authority

And then, if authority could be expressed as a mutually agreed upon change to the bitcoin protocol, why the hell not?
 
A mutually agreed upon change to Bitcoin or anything else is no matter of authority but a mutual and voluntary exchange of desires. Authority implies power, coercion something placed above others and their desires. That is not the case in a self-regulating society.

In essence, I agree with you but not your terminology.
True, but authority expressed as a mutually agreed upon change to the bitcoin protocol is autority.
The network has power and coerces the crap out of transactions on a level far far away from its users and their desires.
Only the top part of the bitcoin concept relies on the self-regulatory capability of the users.
The rest is written as protocols in stone.
Try to negotiate with the network and you will know where the boundaries are of what you call a self-regulating society.
Fact is, this self-regulating society could not have existed without the hardness of the underlying system.
Just see the panic when that system seems compromisable (51% attack and whatnot) and you know its importance.
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September 11, 2012, 07:45:58 PM
 #71

Ironic that the drug dealers on Silk Road have better reputation than the e-businessmen on this board.
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September 11, 2012, 08:03:35 PM
 #72

Ironic that the drug dealers on Silk Road have better reputation than the e-businessmen on this board.
I think Silk Road has the same problem - sellers build up a reputation, convince people to trust them with their money without escrow, and then run off with a whole bunch of money. They also apparently have a problem with "selective scammers"; some sellers make money by scamming individuals not trusted in the community whilst keeping their reputation up by doing honest business with reputable people who will vouch for them against the buyers they've scammed.

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September 12, 2012, 01:51:37 AM
 #73


Start a thread in the meta section and if it's well written I will support it. Although perhaps due to your "notoriety" someone else should start it!

One already exists.


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=108770.0



All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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September 12, 2012, 02:31:39 AM
 #74

I don't think removing Marketplace is a good response. Just as throwing up your hands and saying "I've been scammed I'll never spend bitcoins again" shouldn't be the default response either. I suggest learning lessons and being more discerning. Although, for someone unwilling or unable to do so the "never spend bitcoins again" may become a decent option.



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bg002h
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September 12, 2012, 03:05:11 AM
 #75

Irreversibility and relative anonymity....not likely to bring out the best in people...

Hardfork aren't that hard.
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September 12, 2012, 03:21:36 AM
 #76

Irreversibility and relative anonymity....not likely to bring out the best in people...

Or, conversely, might bring out the best people to the forefront of visibility (since people may end up competing for good reputation).

bg002h
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September 12, 2012, 11:57:25 AM
 #77

Irreversibility and relative anonymity....not likely to bring out the best in people...

Or, conversely, might bring out the best people to the forefront of visibility (since people may end up competing for good reputation).
Hasn't yet, as far as I can tell...would have to drop the pseudoanonymity to build a reputation though...

Hardfork aren't that hard.
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September 12, 2012, 02:35:00 PM
 #78

Should be a votecoin that sits alongside bitcoin and you can vote for acceptable community standards by spending them at "elections" or "polls" to decide on different decisions to be made.

At least you cant bribe the bitcoin protocol or get dead people to vote for one party  Cheesy

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I outlived my lifetime membership:)


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September 12, 2012, 02:43:06 PM
 #79

...would have to drop the pseudoanonymity to build a reputation though...
A brand can build a reputation. For example, "nanotube from bitcointalk.org" is a pseudonymous brand that has built a good reputation.
True. Create a new identity that is unconnected to a real world identity and make the new identity public. Maybe have a bonding agency to vet new identities and arbitrate disputes for a fee...

Hardfork aren't that hard.
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