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Author Topic: It seems irreversible payments are a paradigm shift: Scams everywhere.  (Read 8107 times)
Atlas
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September 11, 2012, 11:37:39 AM
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When somebody is confident that nobody can reverse their actions and confiscate the property (Bitcoins) they now possess, it seems to override what's socially acceptable and they keep the money in their pocket despite not delivering what they committed to. There is no possible and real consequence right now.

I've lost over 300 BTC to scammers in my lifetime on this forum, all because I believed people usually valued the property of others. Either because of the social disconnect of online mediums, luck or my over-trusting attitude this has continued to happen until this day.

I am giving in guys. I will start being tougher on who I do business with. This is a totally different ball game and I need to learn how to play it.

Trust unfortunately needs to be earned, at least here.
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September 11, 2012, 11:45:18 AM
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I am giving in guys. I will start being tougher on who I do business with. This is a totally different ball game and I need to learn how to play it.
Good for you !

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September 11, 2012, 11:45:33 AM
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I believed people usually valued the property of others.

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Atlas
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September 11, 2012, 11:57:42 AM
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I believe folks have become to accustomed to being wrapped in cotton wool to protect them from their own stupidity, admittedly I find the risks hard to evaluate too. There seems to be a few common factors amongst the victims of scams, greed is a frequent one but I don't hear many folks coming from less law abiding states complaining.

I have simply bought products that never were delivered. Konichua has been my only gentlemen's agreement bet.
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September 11, 2012, 12:12:51 PM
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We should not look down our noses at people who are not good with money or are just bad at operating in the free market.  I myself have never had a problem here and have never lost money because I look at every business transaction with perfect clarity, but not everyone can be as sharp as I am.  That is why we need government regulation of Bitcoin, we need to protect folks like Atlas who have been innocent victims of their own lack of depth and insuitability to an open market.  

"Money is like manure: Spread around, it helps things grow. Piled up in one place, it just stinks."
Atlas
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September 11, 2012, 12:17:06 PM
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We should not look down our noses at people who are not good with money or are just bad at operating in the free market.  I myself have never had a problem here and have never lost money because I look at every business transaction with perfect clarity, but not everyone can be as sharp as I am.  That is why we need government regulation of Bitcoin, we need to protect folks like Atlas who have been innocent victims of their own lack of depth and insuitability to an open market.  
I would happily lose it all over again, Rarity. Thanks but no thanks. You can keep your government regulation.

Anyways, great trolling. 9/10
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September 11, 2012, 12:23:57 PM
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I don't think an individual so easily scammed is someone those of us doing well in this Bitcoin free market should be consulting on how best to proceed.  Survival of the fittest is the name of the game here, and your mismanagement of your funds has proven you do not have what it takes.  If wealth is the product of man’s capacity to think, allowing yourself to become victim to a scam and lose your wealth is evidence of a total lack of any such capacity.  Our only choice is to use government regulation to protect you from your own lack of clarity. 

"Money is like manure: Spread around, it helps things grow. Piled up in one place, it just stinks."
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September 11, 2012, 12:26:39 PM
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Aye, I agree, bitcoin seems to override most peoples sense of what is decent - maybe its the fact its mostly over the internet and people just dont have the morals to do business like they would in person (muggings aside).

I havent been scammed "yet" - I'm expecting it one day tho - now matter how clever I think I'm being there's always going to be someone who is most clever than me Smiley.

I've taken to requesting peoples Facebook account and asking they message me from it to confirm some kind of identity - I know this is not perfect, but at least gives a small sense of security (as I believe most people dont really "lie" on there FB accounts, created a personal connection)
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September 11, 2012, 12:27:19 PM
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In meatspace, I much prefer paying with my credit card to using cash, and one of the reasons is that I trust my credit card company more than the merchant. In case of a disagreement between me and the merchant, having the credit card company as an intermediary on my side is really helpful.

I'm assuming that once Bitcoin matures, those kinds of intermediaries will be common, with me only buying from merchants that have an agreement with my payment processor whom I trust to "insure" the transaction somehow.

In the meantime, you do really need to treat bitcoins like cash. I think one problem is that cash is so rarely used for day-to-day transactions by many people that we've forgotten how to treat anything like cash.
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September 11, 2012, 12:29:10 PM
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Survival of the fittest is the name of the game here, and your mismanagement of your funds has proven you do not have what it takes.

We still need something to regulate our life in Bitcoin world. An instrument that allows to "reverse" a payment if there were no delivery of the good would be very handy.
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September 11, 2012, 12:30:12 PM
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Irked nedbert is nedbirked.

Countermeasures such as multisig is extremely important.  Multisig doesn't address every failing, but it can go a long way to prevent losses due to specific types of negligence and fraud.

Anything without balance or countermeasures is susceptible to problems.  In it's unmediated form the benefit provided by the irreversible nature of Bitcoin is heavily polarized towards merchants and thieves.  This attribute of Bitcoin is unbalanced.  

Performing direct person-to-person, irreversible trading without an intermediary is a personal failure of due diligence.  Depending on the circumstances I would go as far as to say that no one can be trusted.


The bigger problem is trusting services/organizations that cater to the Bitcoin market.  As evidenced, the potential losses for irreversible activity on services with aggregate wealth can be huge.


No one with significant wealth would be wise to transfer that wealth to a service dealing in Bitcoin without maintaining a minimum level of control over that wealth.  We might trust in the 'Full faith and credit of the United States,' and it's various institutions that might provide recourse for theft, but with Bitcoin it is incredibly foolish to take on faith, 'Trust me.  I'm secure and your money isn't going anywhere.'  


Reduce the gain from basic thievery by employing multisig and see that theft dwindle.  Ask the dev's for it.  Ask the services for it.



mobodick
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September 11, 2012, 12:58:15 PM
 #12

When somebody is confident that nobody can reverse their actions and confiscate the property (Bitcoins) they now possess, it seems to override what's socially acceptable and they keep the money in their pocket despite not delivering what they committed to. There is no possible and real consequence right now.

I've lost over 300 BTC to scammers in my lifetime on this forum, all because I believed people usually valued the property of others. Either because of the social disconnect of online mediums, luck or my over-trusting attitude this has continued to happen until this day.

I am giving in guys. I will start being tougher on who I do business with. This is a totally different ball game and I need to learn how to play it.

Trust unfortunately needs to be earned, at least here.


If that's what you think then i truely feel sorry for you.
Earned trust is not enough anymore as of recently trusted community members have shown a different face.
And how do you assign a trust value to a name on a forum anyway?
This is why, for instance, fiat is regulated. It gives you more than 'earned trust' to enforce contracts.
I also feel sorry for the people who think that money should not be regulated.
The way bitcoin is developing it only proves that some form of regulation and enforcement is needed to create a stable environment on which trade of goods can prosper.
I'm not saying fiat is the holy grail.
What i'm saying is that any money system needs forms of regulation and be able to enforce these regulations otherwise scams in all forms will dominate it in the end.
Monster Tent
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September 11, 2012, 01:05:33 PM
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I think the majority of scams can be blamed on distance. When bitcoin merchants live in your local area you will see scamming rates go down significantly. There are reasons your local electronics store doesnt rip you off,not like buying graphics cards off an anon entity overseas or inter country. Its easy to go to consumer protection groups and report a scammy merchant living just around the corner because most people dont shit in their own nest Smiley


URSAY
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September 11, 2012, 01:13:03 PM
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It's not just the scams.  It's the general shadiness and position of superiority that even seemingly well respected Bitcoiners carry on with...
sadpandatech
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September 11, 2012, 01:18:23 PM
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I've lost over 300 BTC to scammers in my lifetime on this forum, all because I believed people usually valued the property of others.

Would you normally conduct your business the same way when transacting in other mediums of exchange?



escrow escrow escrow!

If you're not excited by the idea of being an early adopter 'now', then you should come back in three or four years and either tell us "Told you it'd never work!" or join what should, by then, be a much more stable and easier-to-use system. - GA
It is being worked on by smart people. -DamienBlack
sadpandatech
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September 11, 2012, 01:21:20 PM
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We still need something to regulate our life in Bitcoin world. An instrument that allows to "reverse" a payment if there were no delivery of the good would be very handy.

Yes, it exists. It's called paypal or a credit card.

No, it's called ESCROW. =)  And you can do it almost fully automated via Bitmit.net..

If you're not excited by the idea of being an early adopter 'now', then you should come back in three or four years and either tell us "Told you it'd never work!" or join what should, by then, be a much more stable and easier-to-use system. - GA
It is being worked on by smart people. -DamienBlack
Atlas
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September 11, 2012, 01:25:33 PM
 #17

I've lost over 300 BTC to scammers in my lifetime on this forum, all because I believed people usually valued the property of others.

Would you normally conduct your business the same way when transacting in other mediums of exchange?



escrow escrow escrow!
Escrow didn't exist in early 2010.
Atlas
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September 11, 2012, 01:32:03 PM
 #18

I've lost over 300 BTC to scammers in my lifetime on this forum, all because I believed people usually valued the property of others.

Would you normally conduct your business the same way when transacting in other mediums of exchange?



escrow escrow escrow!
Escrow didn't exist in early 2010.

Sure it did.

I highly doubt it. We just got from selling spongebob stickers to actual goods.
BadBear
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September 11, 2012, 01:33:51 PM
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I've lost over 300 BTC to scammers in my lifetime on this forum, all because I believed people usually valued the property of others.

Would you normally conduct your business the same way when transacting in other mediums of exchange?



escrow escrow escrow!
Escrow didn't exist in early 2010.

Sure it did.

I highly doubt it. We just got from selling spongebob stickers to actual goods.

So there wasn't a single trusted person in the community who could hold the funds?

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sadpandatech
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September 11, 2012, 01:35:01 PM
 #20

I've lost over 300 BTC to scammers in my lifetime on this forum, all because I believed people usually valued the property of others.

Would you normally conduct your business the same way when transacting in other mediums of exchange?



escrow escrow escrow!
Escrow didn't exist in early 2010.

Sure it did.

I highly doubt it. We just got from selling spongebob stickers to actual goods.
Are you even the real Atlas? He used to make much more informed responses. :/

Bitmit.net may not have existed in 2010. But surely, some trusted form of escrow has always existed.  And if you are suggesting you lost 300BTC back in 2010 and are just now giving up then smoething does not add up in what msg you are trying to convey here exactly.. And if you did lose 300BTC back in 2010 it would have been worth, what $3.00?? Did this ruin you or something>?

If you're not excited by the idea of being an early adopter 'now', then you should come back in three or four years and either tell us "Told you it'd never work!" or join what should, by then, be a much more stable and easier-to-use system. - GA
It is being worked on by smart people. -DamienBlack
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