Should we have a "made in China" bitcoin?

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Bitcoin is bitcoin right?  Technically it is correct, however where it is made makes a big difference.  

Bitcoin made in China is made under condition that is close to slavery https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1072474.0 .   Workers have no OSHA standards.  They live and work in the mining ore "warehouse" 24 hours a day.  

So should we have a choice to buy bitcoin made in the USA vs. CHina?  Should bitcoin made in the USA carries a premium over BTC-china?

I speculate /suggest that bitcoin should have a "made in __" label added to the block chains so conscious consumer can make a choice to support humane working condition or slavery.  Just like knowing that your dog leather jacket made in China is inhumane https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urGkiS_b9bg .  

[TheRealSteve]

On a principle level: No.  This isn't much different from a debate over whether stolen coins should be tagged as such to prevent their (further) sale.

On a practical level: How far would you want to take that?  How good are the conditions in hardware manufacturing? Given that many non-Chinese farms will still use made-in-China hardware, wouldn't that similarly affect any "Mined in the USA using equipment made in China and assembled in Brazil" type labeling?

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On a principle level: No.  This isn't much different from a debate over whether stolen coins should be tagged as such to prevent their (further) sale.

On a practical level: How far would you want to take that?  How good are the conditions in hardware manufacturing? Given that many non-Chinese farms will still use made-in-China hardware, wouldn't that similarly affect any "Mined in the USA using equipment made in China and assembled in Brazil" type labeling?

I attempted to avoid made in China products when I shop.  So giving the consumers the knowledge of where the products are made should be a requirement.

To label btc coins as stolen you first have to prove that the coins were in fact stolen.  This involves law enforcement--a very complex situation.  On the other hand, to label a coin with where it is made is much simpler.  

All products at Walmart have a country of origin on them--even bananas.  Bitcoin should do the same.  

[TheRealSteve]

On the other hand, to label a coin with where it is made is much simpler.

If not for a pesky little thing like proxies and VPNs should such an idea take off and actually impact a party negatively.

You also didn't seem to touch on my second question - I realize it muddies the waters, but to go with your purchasing habits, do you only look for the "Made in" bit, or do you specifically double-check that the "Made in USA" doesn't just mean "Manufactured in China, assembled in USA" (where 'assembled' tends to mean that's where they put the packaging around it, which is more a cost-saving measure).

[cakir]

You wot mate?

You want to color all the coins which was generated by chinese miners and offer them lower price?

Remember; those bitcoins are not shitty chinese products. They're bitcoins that accepted by the whole network (at least %99 of miners). Who the hell you think you're and want to differenciate bitcoins on the same network?

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On the other hand, to label a coin with where it is made is much simpler.

If not for a pesky little thing like proxies and VPNs should such an idea take off and actually impact a party negatively.

You also didn't seem to touch on my second question - I realize it muddies the waters, but to go with your purchasing habits, do you only look for the "Made in" bit, or do you specifically double-check that the "Made in USA" doesn't just mean "Manufactured in China, assembled in USA" (where 'assembled' tends to mean that's where they put the packaging around it, which is more a cost-saving measure).

I definitely will not buy any foods from China doesn't matter how cheap they are.  Remember the melamine scandal that hospitalized 54000 children? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal

I definitely will not buy any toys from China.  Remember the lead paint toys imported from China?  http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/02/business/02toy.html?_r=0

I found more items that are cheaper if they were made in the USA than China.  

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Once we are able to differentiate bitcoin made in China vs bitcoin made in the USA then we should lobby overstock.com, newegg.com, and all the merchants in the USA that accept bitcoin to valuate bitcoins made in the USA more than btc-china.

[Amph]

this thread comes in handy, since it depicts well a possibility of having china coin, but they will be dumped in china only, not so different than any regular altcoin, minus the monstrous network hashrate that a thing like this could have

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1087583.0

[TheRealSteve]

You still haven't answered my question.  Let's try it with a matrix.

Rate the following options as BTC1 = $? values relative to each other, and explain why:

	Hardware made in China |	Hardware made in Germany |	Hardware made in Israel |	Hardware made in USA
Bitcoin mined in China	?	?	?	?
Bitcoin mined in Iceland	?	?	?	?
Bitcoin mined in Israel	?	?	?	?
Bitcoin mined in USA	?	?	?	?

[gallery2000]

You still haven't answered my question.  Let's try it with a matrix.

Rate the following options as BTC1 = $? values relative to each other, and explain why:

	Hardware made in China |	Hardware made in Germany |	Hardware made in Israel |	Hardware made in USA
Bitcoin mined in China	?	?	?	?
Bitcoin mined in Iceland	?	?	?	?
Bitcoin mined in Israel	?	?	?	?
Bitcoin mined in USA	?	?	?	?

I am not advocating for price fixing.  I am advocating for putting the country of origin in btc.  Let the market determines the price.  If Overstock, Newegg, Tigerdirect, and other merchants decided to accept btc-USA over btc-CN then btc made in the USA will be more valuable and vice versa.  

[TheRealSteve]

I am not advocating for price fixing.

ಠ_ಠ

we should lobby [...] to valuate bitcoins made in the USA more than btc-china.

I am advocating for putting the country of origin in btc.

And I am pointing out the flaws on one side (proxy, vpn, hosted gear, etc.), and the further considerations (mined in X with hardware made in Y designed in Z) on the other - which you're happy to ignore.

fwiw, if you're really quite hell-bent on this, just e-mail those retailers / services / etc. with common websites that (attempt to) list the pools (which in turn doesn't necessarily correspond to a physical location, not to mention purported conditions for those working there) where Bitcoins were mined.  Good luck?

[jermwerty]

So uhh how do a label my bitcoins?

Mined with Israeli chips assembled in Israel currently running on US Soil with Hydro/Nuclear Power on a Chinese Pool with USA made power supplies?

I'll take one of those please!

EDIT:  Crap where are my power cables made, Malaysia?  Doh gotta add more...

[gallery2000]

I am not advocating for price fixing.

ಠ_ಠ

we should lobby [...] to valuate bitcoins made in the USA more than btc-china.

I am advocating for putting the country of origin in btc.

And I am pointing out the flaws on one side (proxy, vpn, hosted gear, etc.), and the further considerations (mined in X with hardware made in Y designed in Z) on the other - which you're happy to ignore.

fwiw, if you're really quite hell-bent on this, just e-mail those retailers / services / etc. with common websites that (attempt to) list the pools (which in turn doesn't necessarily correspond to a physical location, not to mention purported conditions for those working there) where Bitcoins were mined.  Good luck?

Do you considered the US dollar made in the USA even the printing press was made in Sweden?  Yes, the US dollar is the dollar it doesn't matter where the printing press (printer for short) was made.  The dollar is useless if it was counterfeited or it was not approved by the US government even the printer was made in the USA (HP printer for example).

Just like the US dollar, if we have btc-usa then it is btc-usa.  It does not matter if the machine was made in China or Israel or Sweden.  Why is btc worth what it is now?  Did the Chinese contribute to its worth?  No.  Actually the Chinese contributed to its demise with its government threatened to ban btc.  

Do they have any merchants that are as big as Overstock accepting btc?  No.  
\

[TheRealSteve]

Righto.  Say there's a U.S. based pool.  That pool does its GBT thing, and miners from all over the world, including China, mine at that pool.  Now a Chinese miner using that pool finds the required nonce/any other info, submits that to the pool, and the pool declares that the block was found.  At this point, are you suggesting that the USA-based pool slaps a 'Made in China' on that particular block?

Let's complicate matters a little bit further.. you say you don't care about where the hardware was made (so "Made in China, Assembled in the USA" doesn't rub you wrong).  What about who owns the hardware?  Say a Chinese miner decides that a mining operation in *spins the wheel'o'states* Montana is an excellent place to stash their hardware, ships it on over, and lets it be hosted there.  Now they find a block.  Is that, to you, a USA block, or a China block?

[gallery2000]

Righto.  Say there's a U.S. based pool.  That pool does its GBT thing, and miners from all over the world, including China, mine at that pool.  Now a Chinese miner using that pool finds the required nonce/any other info, submits that to the pool, and the pool declares that the block was found.  At this point, are you suggesting that the USA-based pool slaps a 'Made in China' on that particular block?

Let's complicate matters a little bit further.. you say you don't care about where the hardware was made (so "Made in China, Assembled in the USA" doesn't rub you wrong).  What about who owns the hardware?  Say a Chinese miner decides that a mining operation in *spins the wheel'o'states* Montana is an excellent place to stash their hardware, ships it on over, and lets it be hosted there.  Now they find a block.  Is that, to you, a USA block, or a China block?

First, if they are going to stash 15 Petahash in Montana then the btc mined by the Montana location will be branded as btc-usa.  They will hire workers to run that mining plant.  That mining plant will have to obey OSHA standards and have worker compensation insurance.  The workers will be paid at the federal minimum wage of $7.25 an hour (good luck finding workers that work in the IT field for minimum wage).  

This is like a Toyota Corolla made in North Carolina is still considered made in the USA.

Compares to BTC made in China:

15 Petahash in Chengdu.  Workers work in an environment that is very hazardous.  Minimum wage is $2 an hour.  So the cost to produce one btc is SO MUCH CHEAPER thus it is btc-china.

Do you think diamond mined in Russia is more expensive than diamond in Congo because it is prettier?  No, because diamond in the Congo is called blood diamond.  http://www.ringenvy.com/blood-diamonds/  .  Bitcoin made in China should be called blood bitcoin.

[TheRealSteve]

Very well, and now your answer to the actual first part?

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Very well, and now your answer to the actual first part?

Righto.  Say there's a U.S. based pool.  That pool does its GBT thing, and miners from all over the world, including China, mine at that pool.  Now a Chinese miner using that pool finds the required nonce/any other info, submits that to the pool, and the pool declares that the block was found.  At this point, are you suggesting that the USA-based pool slaps a 'Made in China' on that particular block?

This is a technical aspect which I defer.  I do not know how to accurately label one miner as in the USA vs in China.  Probably it can reverse lookup the IP coming from the miner to determine if he is from the US or China--like +1 area code is from the USA and +86 is from China.  Of course, people will try to cheat the system.

[chennan]

It doesn't make any sense! It will bring chaos to bitcoin industry! Do they have different quality or features needed to be labelled? I don't think so! Chinese miners are geting a large portion of bitcoin being the envy of all of the bitcoiners from other countries. What is wrong with the Chinese miners? No at all! They contribute a lot of hashpower to secure the network.

[gallery2000]

It doesn't make any sense! It will bring chaos to bitcoin industry! Do they have different quality or features needed to be labelled? I don't think so! Chinese miners are geting a large portion of bitcoin being the envy of all of the bitcoiners from other countries. What is wrong with the Chinese miners? No at all! They contribute a lot of hashpower to secure the network.

Bitcoin is considered a product/property and NOT a currency so I think it is subjected to the "country of origin" law in the United States.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Country_of_origin

 


 Ford automobile hubcap
Section 304 of the Tariff Act of 1930 as amended (19 U.S.C. § 1304) requires most imports,[which?] including many food items, to bear labels informing the ultimate purchaser of their country of origin. Meats, produce, and several other raw agricultural products generally were exempt. The 2002 farm bill (P.L. 107-171, Sec. 10816), however, contains a requirement that many retail establishments provide, starting on September 30, 2004, country-of-origin information on fresh fruits and vegetables, red meats, seafood, and peanuts. However, the consolidated FY2004 appropriation (P.L. 108-199) signed January 23, 2004, delayed this requirement for two years except for seafood.[13]

The Textile Fiber Products Identification Act and Wool Products Labeling Act require a Made in USA label on most clothing and other textile or wool household products if the final product is manufactured in the U.S. of fabric that is manufactured in the U.S., regardless of where materials earlier in the manufacturing process (for example, the yarn and fiber) came from. Textile products that are imported must be labeled as required by the Customs Service. A textile or wool product partially manufactured in the U.S. and partially manufactured in another country must be labeled to show both foreign and domestic processing.

On a garment with a neck, the country of origin must be disclosed on the front of a label attached to the inside center of the neck, either midway between the shoulder seams or very near another label attached to the inside center of the neck. On a garment without a neck and on other kinds of textile products, the country of origin must appear on a conspicuous and readily accessible label on the inside or outside of the product.

Catalogs and other mail order promotional materials for textile and wool products, including those disseminated on the Internet, must disclose whether a product is made in the U.S., imported, or both.

The Fur Products Labeling Act requires the country of origin of imported furs to be disclosed on all labels and in all advertising.

The American Automobile Labeling Act requires that each automobile manufactured on or after October 1, 1994, for sale in the U.S. bear a label disclosing where the car was assembled, the percentage of equipment that originated in the U.S. and Canada, and the country of origin of the engine and transmission. Any representation that a car marketer makes that is required by the AALA is exempt from the Commission’s policy. When a company makes claims in advertising or promotional materials that go beyond the AALA requirements, it will be held to the Commission’s standard.

The Buy American Act requires that a product be manufactured in the U.S. of more than 50 percent U.S. parts to be considered Made in USA for government procurement purposes. For more information, review the Buy American Act at 41 U.S.C. §§ 10a-10c, the Federal Acquisition Regulations at 48 C.F.R. Part 25, and the Trade Agreements Act at 19 U.S.C. §§ 2501-2582.

The Lanham Act gives any person (such as a competitor) who is damaged by a false designation of origin the right to sue the party making the false claim.

[Cluster2k]

Bitcoins are fungible.  One is valued and behaves exactly the same way as another.  It's impossible to assign a lower value to 'Made in China' bitcoins. 

Another way of looking at it is gold bullion.  If you're buying an ounce of gold would you pay less for metal mined by slave labour in Zimbabwe than a modern mine with well paid workers in Canada or Australia?  Of course not.  There is no market for 'slave labour' gold versus 'ethically mined' gold.  It's one market with one value across the board.

If you want to improve the plight of bitcoin miners in China then start an online campaign showing their problem and addressing their concerns.  Would anyone care?  Probably not.