How can bitcoin be used in shops, if payments take so long to process?

[dogecoinshop]

A payment takes 10 min to process. In what store can you buy something under 10 minute really?

Sometimes you have to wait 15 min at the tilt because the employee is a moron, if you could do that in 10 min i`d be very happy.

You just buy the stuff quick, pay for it, then put the bought stuff in a safe storage inside the magazine, and go looking at the other products until you wait for verification. Then after the verification is done, pickup your bought goods and leave.

It would change shopping habits, but whatever.

 No ,that would make people leave..Really once blockchain see's the transaction you are good .i have stood their and tried to double spend and never succeeded(Testing) So , if you really want bitcoin to be used by the masses . Maybe try going to a real store and spending some ?

A payment takes 10 min to process. In what store can you buy something under 10 minute really?

Sometimes you have to wait 15 min at the tilt because the employee is a moron, if you could do that in 10 min i`d be very happy.

You just buy the stuff quick, pay for it, then put the bought stuff in a safe storage inside the magazine, and go looking at the other products until you wait for verification. Then after the verification is done, pickup your bought goods and leave.

It would change shopping habits, but whatever.

Not all blocks take 10 minutes, that's the average time but some of them I have seen to take more than an hour. It is a minor problem and it has been discussed before but if any store does starts to accept BTC as a payment method then the person paying with bitcoin has to wait until the Tx has received 1 confirmation because the shop owner won't accept payment until it has 1 confirmation and for now this is how it is.

Ok plan B

Have an offchain  bitcoin based payment processor designed solely for shop purchases.

You sign up to this payment processor, deposit like 2 bitcoins, and then go on shopping. When you pay for the goods & services you pay directly from the PP's account you hold with them, which would take 15 sec perhaps like if you would buy with credit/debit cards

This would be an easy off-chain solution, and would need a bit of technical integration from the vendor's part.

But i`m sure something like XAPO or similar could come up with an offchain system like this.

plan c

The shop itself should have an internal account with you. Most shops already give out fidelity cards, perhaps they can give out debit cards now and you can have an accoutn with them.

Especially big hypermarkets and plaza's so you just make an account there deposit 2-3 bitcoins when you enter, buy it off and then you leave you can take out the change.

Really? You are so off .
You would need some scripting knowledge as any of the default bitcoin core/qt or other wallets won't allow you to easily execute a double spend.

Any particular reason you want to try this? Just to see how resilient the protocol is? Short of having a ton of mining resources at your disposal, it's going to a bit hard to pull off even a 0 confirmation double spend since most miners will reject the transaction by comparing what's in mempool. For a 1-3 confirmation doubles spend, the difficulty becomes exponentially higher.

In short, there's no GUI 'test a double spend' client that I'm aware of.

[RealBitcoin]

Really? You are so off .
You would need some scripting knowledge as any of the default bitcoin core/qt or other wallets won't allow you to easily execute a double spend.

Any particular reason you want to try this? Just to see how resilient the protocol is? Short of having a ton of mining resources at your disposal, it's going to a bit hard to pull off even a 0 confirmation double spend since most miners will reject the transaction by comparing what's in mempool. For a 1-3 confirmation doubles spend, the difficulty becomes exponentially higher.

In short, there's no GUI 'test a double spend' client that I'm aware of.

YOU ARE QUOTING THE WRONG PERSON.

I think you were trying to talk to "twister" so please next time quote the guy who you are talking to 

[dogecoinshop]

Really? You are so off .
You would need some scripting knowledge as any of the default bitcoin core/qt or other wallets won't allow you to easily execute a double spend.

Any particular reason you want to try this? Just to see how resilient the protocol is? Short of having a ton of mining resources at your disposal, it's going to a bit hard to pull off even a 0 confirmation double spend since most miners will reject the transaction by comparing what's in mempool. For a 1-3 confirmation doubles spend, the difficulty becomes exponentially higher.

In short, there's no GUI 'test a double spend' client that I'm aware of.

YOU ARE QUOTING THE WRONG PERSON.

I think you were trying to talk to "twister" so please next time quote the guy who you are talking to  

oops sorry dude want me to delete it?

[woodsandhillsplc]

Would you say there is any risk for vendors or is it rare to have problems?

There is ALWAYS risk with ANY form of payment.

If you are accepting U.S. dollars, there is a risk that you will accidentally accept high quality counterfeit bills. You may not know this has happened for a day or so until you try to deposit the bill at the bank.  By then, it may be difficult to recall many details about the person that gave you the counterfeit when you talk to the police and they attempt to track down the criminal.

If you are accepting credit cards, there is a risk that a chargeback may occur against your business for a variety of reasons.  If it is due to credit card fraud, you may not know this has happened for several weeks (or even months). By then, it may be difficult to recall many details about the person that used the credit card when you talk to the police and they attempt to track down the criminal.

If you are accepting bitcoins, there is a risk that they will successfully get a replacement transaction confirmed before the transaction that you see is confirmed.  You may not know that this has happened for an hour or so.  Of the three situations we've discussed here, you have the best chance of recalling some details about the thief when you contact the police in this situation.

Furthermore you can create software that checks some very simple details that will drastically reduce the risk when accepting bitcoin transactions.

If you verify that:

• Your wallet is well connected to multiple geographically distributed peers (or directly connected to several large mining pools)
• The transaction has been well propagated (especially if your software has heard about the transaction from several large mining pools)
• The transaction includes a reasonable fee per kilobyte
• All inputs to the transaction are already confirmed

Then you can be VERY confident that the transaction will confirm.  It would be extremely difficult (nearly impossible) to reverse such a transaction.  I'd personally feel comfortable accepting a transaction worth hundreds of dollars without confirmation if it met the criteria above.
  

Danny thank you for such a detailed answer. You are right about the risk with all forms of payment. I am so risk adverse sometimes, I get a little fixated on the potential drawbacks of something... but I guess it is better to cover all the possibilities!

Thank you everyone else for your posts also.

To take all the answers into account, I guess there will always be a small risk - but with the right procedures it will never be more than you would have with any other form of payment.

Cheers everyone!

[ranochigo]

A payment takes 10 min to process. In what store can you buy something under 10 minute really?

Sometimes you have to wait 15 min at the tilt because the employee is a moron, if you could do that in 10 min i`d be very happy.

You just buy the stuff quick, pay for it, then put the bought stuff in a safe storage inside the magazine, and go looking at the other products until you wait for verification. Then after the verification is done, pickup your bought goods and leave.

It would change shopping habits, but whatever.

 No ,that would make people leave..Really once blockchain see's the transaction you are good .i have stood their and tried to double spend and never succeeded(Testing) So , if you really want bitcoin to be used by the masses . Maybe try going to a real store and spending some ?

A payment takes 10 min to process. In what store can you buy something under 10 minute really?

Sometimes you have to wait 15 min at the tilt because the employee is a moron, if you could do that in 10 min i`d be very happy.

You just buy the stuff quick, pay for it, then put the bought stuff in a safe storage inside the magazine, and go looking at the other products until you wait for verification. Then after the verification is done, pickup your bought goods and leave.

It would change shopping habits, but whatever.

Not all blocks take 10 minutes, that's the average time but some of them I have seen to take more than an hour. It is a minor problem and it has been discussed before but if any store does starts to accept BTC as a payment method then the person paying with bitcoin has to wait until the Tx has received 1 confirmation because the shop owner won't accept payment until it has 1 confirmation and for now this is how it is.

Ok plan B

Have an offchain  bitcoin based payment processor designed solely for shop purchases.

You sign up to this payment processor, deposit like 2 bitcoins, and then go on shopping. When you pay for the goods & services you pay directly from the PP's account you hold with them, which would take 15 sec perhaps like if you would buy with credit/debit cards

This would be an easy off-chain solution, and would need a bit of technical integration from the vendor's part.

But i`m sure something like XAPO or similar could come up with an offchain system like this.

plan c

The shop itself should have an internal account with you. Most shops already give out fidelity cards, perhaps they can give out debit cards now and you can have an accoutn with them.

Especially big hypermarkets and plaza's so you just make an account there deposit 2-3 bitcoins when you enter, buy it off and then you leave you can take out the change.

Plan B: Offchain wallets are generally aren't safe. You would have to trust the operator to store your coins in the safest way. There is a risk of the operator running away. One of the biggest scam is inputs.io. They appeared to be quite trusted to majority of the Bitcoin community. In the end, they got "hacked" and 4100BTC were lost. Also, the shop owner must be sure that the operator will not block off their payment and there is no way to prove that the user had actual coins and coins weren't created out of the thin air.
Plan C: This would be like a debit and credit card. This again, requires trust. It is a hassle to maintain so many cards and it would cost some money to issue the cards. This would also cause the centralisation of coins.

As others have said, accepting 0 conf transactions is secure enough. There are less risk associated with it now if precautions are taken.

[Anony]

One thing I'm still not sure I understand about bitcoin's viability to work in real world stores - is how long it takes for payments to process.

How does this work from a store owner's perspective? How can you be sure you will get your money if someone walks in and offers to pay via bitcoin?

Would the customer not have to wait there with you until the transaction is confirmed to avoid the possibility of being scammed somehow?

Thanks in advance for any answers.

Well it can be very simple, once the buyer sees the coins in his wallet, even if it is pending confirmations, then that should serve the purpose. Or best way is to have wallet addresses from all the service providers. Like a shop-owner can receive bitcoins in his localbitcoins.com address if his client has localbitcoins address. Then it will be very fast as there will be internal transaction.

[edric]

I think a system would have to be developed to make the process faster. What really can be done is to actually have a card-swapping type of system. User will have to enter his credentials in a machine and enter the payment amount. Then after authorization, shop owner can collect his payments from coinbase, localbitcoins or any platform. In short, coinbase, localbitcoins will actually work as a bank and can have small fees for their services.

[cbase]

I think a system would have to be developed to make the process faster. What really can be done is to actually have a card-swapping type of system. User will have to enter his credentials in a machine and enter the payment amount. Then after authorization, shop owner can collect his payments from coinbase, localbitcoins or any platform. In short, coinbase, localbitcoins will actually work as a bank and can have small fees for their services.

That would be pretty complicating. The whole point of decentralized currency is that it is decentralized. If we bring in card swapping, or any other kind of banking stuff, then how will it remain decentralized. It will ultimately become a controlled currency.

[RodeoX]

Credit cards take 2-30 days to sort out. Users seem to not know this, but businesses know it well. So bitcoin takes an average of 10mins. vs. a week with credit, and it costs the business 3% for
the card.  Shops do better with bitcoin.

[Anony]

Credit cards take 2-30 days to sort out. Users seem to not know this, but businesses know it well. So bitcoin takes an average of 10mins. vs. a week with credit, and it costs the business 3% for
the card.  Shops do better with bitcoin.

Exactly. I mean the card swapping type of function can be implemented in a decentralized way. Then there will be more service providers like coinbase, etc. All they would have to do is to debit from users account and credit it to the shop-owners accounts.

[Mr Crabs]

Once the money is sent its as good as received. How is someone going to manage to double spend? Run around the corner and try send the same money again? Why are you not asking the same questions about shops and credit cards? The money can always get chargebacked something like up to six months later so are you worried about that?

[iram66680]

I think a system would have to be developed to make the process faster. What really can be done is to actually have a card-swapping type of system. User will have to enter his credentials in a machine and enter the payment amount. Then after authorization, shop owner can collect his payments from coinbase, localbitcoins or any platform. In short, coinbase, localbitcoins will actually work as a bank and can have small fees for their services.

That would be pretty complicating. The whole point of decentralized currency is that it is decentralized. If we bring in card swapping, or any other kind of banking stuff, then how will it remain decentralized. It will ultimately become a controlled currency.

other than that, the whole point of Bitcoin is to be as anonymous as possible. if a centralised authority control your money, it can potentially track you spendings too.

Once the money is sent its as good as received. How is someone going to manage to double spend? Run around the corner and try send the same money again? Why are you not asking the same questions about shops and credit cards? The money can always get chargebacked something like up to six months later so are you worried about that?

the owner can always proof that you were the one who purchased by showing the authority their cctv footage. also, the ID aren't needed to create a Bitcoin address.

[RealBitcoin]

I think a system would have to be developed to make the process faster. What really can be done is to actually have a card-swapping type of system. User will have to enter his credentials in a machine and enter the payment amount. Then after authorization, shop owner can collect his payments from coinbase, localbitcoins or any platform. In short, coinbase, localbitcoins will actually work as a bank and can have small fees for their services.

That would be pretty complicating. The whole point of decentralized currency is that it is decentralized. If we bring in card swapping, or any other kind of banking stuff, then how will it remain decentralized. It will ultimately become a controlled currency.

other than that, the whole point of Bitcoin is to be as anonymous as possible. if a centralised authority control your money, it can potentially track you spendings too.

Once the money is sent its as good as received. How is someone going to manage to double spend? Run around the corner and try send the same money again? Why are you not asking the same questions about shops and credit cards? The money can always get chargebacked something like up to six months later so are you worried about that?

the owner can always proof that you were the one who purchased by showing the authority their cctv footage. also, the ID aren't needed to create a Bitcoin address.

Ok but we are talking about shopping at grocery stores with this "bitcoin debit card" or "offchain payment provider" type thing.

I`m sure nobody cares if you buy a chips and a coke, there are atleast 50 people seeing you buy it in the shop so i`m sure privacy is not important there.

Well of course if you were to buy some intimate stuff (sex toys, medicine or  intimate objects) then thats another scenario, and privacy is important there.

But so far from shopping groceries or other public objects, i dont really care, and neither should you.

[el kaka22]

As my online shopping experience, some sites requires no confirmation to the transaction. So since the tx appears on the mempool almost instantly after broadcasted, and it will detect that if it is a double spend (if not, then it is a real tx). So some shops may do this.

[iram66680]

I think a system would have to be developed to make the process faster. What really can be done is to actually have a card-swapping type of system. User will have to enter his credentials in a machine and enter the payment amount. Then after authorization, shop owner can collect his payments from coinbase, localbitcoins or any platform. In short, coinbase, localbitcoins will actually work as a bank and can have small fees for their services.

That would be pretty complicating. The whole point of decentralized currency is that it is decentralized. If we bring in card swapping, or any other kind of banking stuff, then how will it remain decentralized. It will ultimately become a controlled currency.

other than that, the whole point of Bitcoin is to be as anonymous as possible. if a centralised authority control your money, it can potentially track you spendings too.

Once the money is sent its as good as received. How is someone going to manage to double spend? Run around the corner and try send the same money again? Why are you not asking the same questions about shops and credit cards? The money can always get chargebacked something like up to six months later so are you worried about that?

the owner can always proof that you were the one who purchased by showing the authority their cctv footage. also, the ID aren't needed to create a Bitcoin address.

Ok but we are talking about shopping at grocery stores with this "bitcoin debit card" or "offchain payment provider" type thing.

I`m sure nobody cares if you buy a chips and a coke, there are atleast 50 people seeing you buy it in the shop so i`m sure privacy is not important there.

Well of course if you were to buy some intimate stuff (sex toys, medicine or  intimate objects) then thats another scenario, and privacy is important there.

But so far from shopping groceries or other public objects, i dont really care, and neither should you.

Most companies would have to comply with the local law to operate there. If they happen to operate in a country with strict KYC policies, they would be required to have the customer's documents verified. This can be problematic since NSA are interested in spying on people. Isn't it so much easier spying them by the payment processor?

[bluemountain]

many services like bitpay do it instantly not even a confirmation is required

[techgeek]

Credit cards take 2-30 days to sort out. Users seem to not know this, but businesses know it well. So bitcoin takes an average of 10mins. vs. a week with credit, and it costs the business 3% for
the card.  Shops do better with bitcoin.

Yup this is pretty spot on.

I help several friends with their business on the back end of stuff if they need help. I rather have the transaction also thats non-reversable as well since the product can be in a un sellable condition for them.

[randy8777]

As my online shopping experience, some sites requires no confirmation to the transaction. So since the tx appears on the mempool almost instantly after broadcasted, and it will detect that if it is a double spend (if not, then it is a real tx). So some shops may do this.

there already are shops that don't require you to wait for confirmations. you get what you buy instantly. but i don't think they will do the same if amount is higher than $20-$30

[dogecoinshop]

Once the money is sent its as good as received. How is someone going to manage to double spend? Run around the corner and try send the same money again? Why are you not asking the same questions about shops and credit cards? The money can always get chargebacked something like up to six months later so are you worried about that?

damn ,your good . real good . damn I was thinking that . lol Right on!!!!!

[Amph]

As my online shopping experience, some sites requires no confirmation to the transaction. So since the tx appears on the mempool almost instantly after broadcasted, and it will detect that if it is a double spend (if not, then it is a real tx). So some shops may do this.

there already are shops that don't require you to wait for confirmations. you get what you buy instantly. but i don't think they will do the same if amount is higher than $20-$30

if we can have a very good regulation and services that take all the risk about a possible double spend when you perform a transaction, then there will be shops in the future who are willing to accept $200 worth of a transaction without any confirmation

the problem is having an authority that deal with this kind of stuff, a third party that connect the user to a shop, like coinbase, but coinbase still require confirmations, so a better thing than that

p.s. ah yeah bitpay, i forgot about that, tnx for reminding me