One in five Americans: “Religious institutions Should Be Forced to Perform SSM"

[MakingMoneyHoney]

Old Testament and New Testament are starkly different in the rules department.

That's the point. One section allows for extreme cruelty, the other is about peace. Either "god" in the bible has multiple personality disorder or it's a book full of contradictory bullshit.

That's my point, but it certainly wasn't your point. Your point was to say Christians follow the OT rules, when they obviously are not supposed to and shouldn't.

Except that christ never rejected the Old Testament's rules, so my point is valid. Stop making up your own version of the bible, because it's wrong.

Jesus died for our sins. So we are not to sacrifice for sins anymore, because He was the final sacrifice and saved us from those sins. That's one example where things changed due to Him being here.

Second, Jesus gave us those 2 commandments: Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

When people sin, they are now to ask God for forgiveness and forgive others, and then Jesus will forgive them. They are not to ask for forgiveness unless they forgive others as they want to be forgiven. The Lord's prayer shows this: "forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us." They go hand in and hand, and right along with what Jesus commanded.

Jesus also says this:

Matthew:38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Love for Enemies

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbori and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

This clearly shows how Jesus said to ignore the old rule of "eye for an eye" and to move into the new commandments of loving everyone, even your enemy, as yourself. The bible speaks for itself.

Unfortunately all of that has nothing to do with Jesus's views on the Old Testament. The fact of the matter is that the bible is a highly contradictory history/story book and Jesus supported the views held in the Old Testament(further adding to the extreme contradictory nature of the bible).

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17)

Yes, He came to fulfill them.

Instead of humans punishing people for their sin (eye for eye, stoning, etc), they're no need now, because they will either be judged upon death (for not asking for forgiveness for that sin), or they will ask for forgiveness and be given it through Jesus.

That's why He can say He came to fulfill them. He's died, and we have forgiveness now. Instead of a need for punishment, Jesus took the punishment for our sin, all of it, even sin that hasn't happened yet, when He died on the cross. There's no need for us to be hurt by our sin anymore.

Again, unfortunately that's all wrong. Him dying and forgiving people of their sins has absolutely nothing to do with the cruel laws and rules provided by "god the father" and his prophets in the Old Testament.

What you're doing, is admitting that Old and New Testament portions of the bible highly contradict each other. It's either "God" has multiple personality disorder of that it's all false.

Why do you think it had nothing to with the laws? It seemed to fit perfectly when I wrote the last post.

Because I already showed that Christ supported the laws in the Old Testament. It doesn't matter what new "laws" he enacted in the New Testament, the fact that he supported the ones in the old show that something is really off with the bible, and it's more likely he simply wanted to gain a Jewish following without off-putting them too much by completely rejecting the OT(which means he wasn't god, but a regular man looking to change the society around him). Noble, but not divine.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this. I think it was fairly obvious, especially thanks to the quote you put up.

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17)

He clearly fulfilled them through His death for our sins, and I see I'm not going to change your mind here.

[celestio]

Old Testament and New Testament are starkly different in the rules department.

That's the point. One section allows for extreme cruelty, the other is about peace. Either "god" in the bible has multiple personality disorder or it's a book full of contradictory bullshit.

That's my point, but it certainly wasn't your point. Your point was to say Christians follow the OT rules, when they obviously are not supposed to and shouldn't.

Except that christ never rejected the Old Testament's rules, so my point is valid. Stop making up your own version of the bible, because it's wrong.

Jesus died for our sins. So we are not to sacrifice for sins anymore, because He was the final sacrifice and saved us from those sins. That's one example where things changed due to Him being here.

Second, Jesus gave us those 2 commandments: Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

When people sin, they are now to ask God for forgiveness and forgive others, and then Jesus will forgive them. They are not to ask for forgiveness unless they forgive others as they want to be forgiven. The Lord's prayer shows this: "forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us." They go hand in and hand, and right along with what Jesus commanded.

Jesus also says this:

Matthew:38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Love for Enemies

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbori and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

This clearly shows how Jesus said to ignore the old rule of "eye for an eye" and to move into the new commandments of loving everyone, even your enemy, as yourself. The bible speaks for itself.

Unfortunately all of that has nothing to do with Jesus's views on the Old Testament. The fact of the matter is that the bible is a highly contradictory history/story book and Jesus supported the views held in the Old Testament(further adding to the extreme contradictory nature of the bible).

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17)

Yes, He came to fulfill them.

Instead of humans punishing people for their sin (eye for eye, stoning, etc), they're no need now, because they will either be judged upon death (for not asking for forgiveness for that sin), or they will ask for forgiveness and be given it through Jesus.

That's why He can say He came to fulfill them. He's died, and we have forgiveness now. Instead of a need for punishment, Jesus took the punishment for our sin, all of it, even sin that hasn't happened yet, when He died on the cross. There's no need for us to be hurt by our sin anymore.

Again, unfortunately that's all wrong. Him dying and forgiving people of their sins has absolutely nothing to do with the cruel laws and rules provided by "god the father" and his prophets in the Old Testament.

What you're doing, is admitting that Old and New Testament portions of the bible highly contradict each other. It's either "God" has multiple personality disorder of that it's all false.

Why do you think it had nothing to with the laws? It seemed to fit perfectly when I wrote the last post.

Because I already showed that Christ supported the laws in the Old Testament. It doesn't matter what new "laws" he enacted in the New Testament, the fact that he supported the ones in the old show that something is really off with the bible, and it's more likely he simply wanted to gain a Jewish following without off-putting them too much by completely rejecting the OT(which means he wasn't god, but a regular man looking to change the society around him). Noble, but not divine.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this. I think it was fairly obvious, especially thanks to the quote you put up.

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17)

He clearly fulfilled them through His death for our sins, and I see I'm not going to change your mind here.

You're not making sense. The point is that he supports the laws of the OT. That's the point, get it?

Many laws in the OT made by prophets or "spoken" by god are just cruel and downright evil, get it?

This shows the inconsistency and contradictory nature of the bible, get it?

Therefore, it's either everything is false or god has multiple personality disorder...get it?

K.

[MakingMoneyHoney]

Old Testament and New Testament are starkly different in the rules department.

That's the point. One section allows for extreme cruelty, the other is about peace. Either "god" in the bible has multiple personality disorder or it's a book full of contradictory bullshit.

That's my point, but it certainly wasn't your point. Your point was to say Christians follow the OT rules, when they obviously are not supposed to and shouldn't.

Except that christ never rejected the Old Testament's rules, so my point is valid. Stop making up your own version of the bible, because it's wrong.

Jesus died for our sins. So we are not to sacrifice for sins anymore, because He was the final sacrifice and saved us from those sins. That's one example where things changed due to Him being here.

Second, Jesus gave us those 2 commandments: Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

When people sin, they are now to ask God for forgiveness and forgive others, and then Jesus will forgive them. They are not to ask for forgiveness unless they forgive others as they want to be forgiven. The Lord's prayer shows this: "forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us." They go hand in and hand, and right along with what Jesus commanded.

Jesus also says this:

Matthew:38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Love for Enemies

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbori and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

This clearly shows how Jesus said to ignore the old rule of "eye for an eye" and to move into the new commandments of loving everyone, even your enemy, as yourself. The bible speaks for itself.

Unfortunately all of that has nothing to do with Jesus's views on the Old Testament. The fact of the matter is that the bible is a highly contradictory history/story book and Jesus supported the views held in the Old Testament(further adding to the extreme contradictory nature of the bible).

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17)

Yes, He came to fulfill them.

Instead of humans punishing people for their sin (eye for eye, stoning, etc), they're no need now, because they will either be judged upon death (for not asking for forgiveness for that sin), or they will ask for forgiveness and be given it through Jesus.

That's why He can say He came to fulfill them. He's died, and we have forgiveness now. Instead of a need for punishment, Jesus took the punishment for our sin, all of it, even sin that hasn't happened yet, when He died on the cross. There's no need for us to be hurt by our sin anymore.

Again, unfortunately that's all wrong. Him dying and forgiving people of their sins has absolutely nothing to do with the cruel laws and rules provided by "god the father" and his prophets in the Old Testament.

What you're doing, is admitting that Old and New Testament portions of the bible highly contradict each other. It's either "God" has multiple personality disorder of that it's all false.

Why do you think it had nothing to with the laws? It seemed to fit perfectly when I wrote the last post.

Because I already showed that Christ supported the laws in the Old Testament. It doesn't matter what new "laws" he enacted in the New Testament, the fact that he supported the ones in the old show that something is really off with the bible, and it's more likely he simply wanted to gain a Jewish following without off-putting them too much by completely rejecting the OT(which means he wasn't god, but a regular man looking to change the society around him). Noble, but not divine.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this. I think it was fairly obvious, especially thanks to the quote you put up.

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17)

He clearly fulfilled them through His death for our sins, and I see I'm not going to change your mind here.

You're not making sense. The point is that he supports the laws of the OT. That's the point, get it?

Many laws in the OT made by prophets or "spoken" by god are just cruel and downright evil, get it?

This shows the inconsistency and contradictory nature of the bible, get it?

Therefore, it's either everything is false or god has multiple personality disorder...get it?

K.

God has always wanted there to be a punishment for sinning. (OT)

God sent His only son to take the punishment for everyone's sins (Jesus dying on the cross)

God now lets us ask Jesus for forgiveness (NT), instead of going through the horrible punishments listed in the OT. That is why Jesus went through hell, was treated like crap, and hanged on a cross.

1 Peter 23 and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously; 24 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.

He lived by His new commandments (I've already posted), loved and trusted God wholly and did not sin against His neighbor as He would not want them to sin against Him. By fullfilling those commandments, He was able to take all the sin that should have been punished, and it was punished unto Him (then and there). Now there's no need for the punishing of sin for us, as He has already fulfilled it.

Edit: You think God changed His mind, multiple personality, but He put all that horrible wrath upon His only son (Jesus) instead. That's not contradictory. That's His grace.

[celestio]

Old Testament and New Testament are starkly different in the rules department.

That's the point. One section allows for extreme cruelty, the other is about peace. Either "god" in the bible has multiple personality disorder or it's a book full of contradictory bullshit.

That's my point, but it certainly wasn't your point. Your point was to say Christians follow the OT rules, when they obviously are not supposed to and shouldn't.

Except that christ never rejected the Old Testament's rules, so my point is valid. Stop making up your own version of the bible, because it's wrong.

Jesus died for our sins. So we are not to sacrifice for sins anymore, because He was the final sacrifice and saved us from those sins. That's one example where things changed due to Him being here.

Second, Jesus gave us those 2 commandments: Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

When people sin, they are now to ask God for forgiveness and forgive others, and then Jesus will forgive them. They are not to ask for forgiveness unless they forgive others as they want to be forgiven. The Lord's prayer shows this: "forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us." They go hand in and hand, and right along with what Jesus commanded.

Jesus also says this:

Matthew:38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Love for Enemies

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbori and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

This clearly shows how Jesus said to ignore the old rule of "eye for an eye" and to move into the new commandments of loving everyone, even your enemy, as yourself. The bible speaks for itself.

Unfortunately all of that has nothing to do with Jesus's views on the Old Testament. The fact of the matter is that the bible is a highly contradictory history/story book and Jesus supported the views held in the Old Testament(further adding to the extreme contradictory nature of the bible).

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17)

Yes, He came to fulfill them.

Instead of humans punishing people for their sin (eye for eye, stoning, etc), they're no need now, because they will either be judged upon death (for not asking for forgiveness for that sin), or they will ask for forgiveness and be given it through Jesus.

That's why He can say He came to fulfill them. He's died, and we have forgiveness now. Instead of a need for punishment, Jesus took the punishment for our sin, all of it, even sin that hasn't happened yet, when He died on the cross. There's no need for us to be hurt by our sin anymore.

Again, unfortunately that's all wrong. Him dying and forgiving people of their sins has absolutely nothing to do with the cruel laws and rules provided by "god the father" and his prophets in the Old Testament.

What you're doing, is admitting that Old and New Testament portions of the bible highly contradict each other. It's either "God" has multiple personality disorder of that it's all false.

Why do you think it had nothing to with the laws? It seemed to fit perfectly when I wrote the last post.

Because I already showed that Christ supported the laws in the Old Testament. It doesn't matter what new "laws" he enacted in the New Testament, the fact that he supported the ones in the old show that something is really off with the bible, and it's more likely he simply wanted to gain a Jewish following without off-putting them too much by completely rejecting the OT(which means he wasn't god, but a regular man looking to change the society around him). Noble, but not divine.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this. I think it was fairly obvious, especially thanks to the quote you put up.

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17)

He clearly fulfilled them through His death for our sins, and I see I'm not going to change your mind here.

You're not making sense. The point is that he supports the laws of the OT. That's the point, get it?

Many laws in the OT made by prophets or "spoken" by god are just cruel and downright evil, get it?

This shows the inconsistency and contradictory nature of the bible, get it?

Therefore, it's either everything is false or god has multiple personality disorder...get it?

K.

God has always wanted there to be a punishment for sinning. (OT)

God sent His only son to take the punishment for everyone's sins (Jesus dying on the cross)

God now lets us ask Jesus for forgiveness (NT), instead of going through the horrible punishments listed in the OT. That is why Jesus went through hell, was treated like crap, and hanged on a cross.

1 Peter 23 and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously; 24 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.

He lived by His new commandments (I've already posted), loved and trusted God wholly and did not sin against His neighbor as He would not want them to sin against Him. By fullfilling those commandments, He was able to take all the sin that should have been punished, and it was punished unto Him (then and there). Now there's no need for the punishing of sin for us, as He has already fulfilled it.

All of that is irrelevant. I'm not talking about there being a punishment for sinning and etc. Please stop going off-topic.

I get that Jesus is a admirable figure, at least according to the New Testament. But the problem is when you christians selectively choose to listen to some passages in the bible and completely ignore others. You listen to the Old Testament on laws regarding homosexuality etc, but why don't you listen to the other laws saying to stone adulterers to death? See?

Either you listen to all of it, or you don't.

[MakingMoneyHoney]

Old Testament and New Testament are starkly different in the rules department.

That's the point. One section allows for extreme cruelty, the other is about peace. Either "god" in the bible has multiple personality disorder or it's a book full of contradictory bullshit.

That's my point, but it certainly wasn't your point. Your point was to say Christians follow the OT rules, when they obviously are not supposed to and shouldn't.

Except that christ never rejected the Old Testament's rules, so my point is valid. Stop making up your own version of the bible, because it's wrong.

Jesus died for our sins. So we are not to sacrifice for sins anymore, because He was the final sacrifice and saved us from those sins. That's one example where things changed due to Him being here.

Second, Jesus gave us those 2 commandments: Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

When people sin, they are now to ask God for forgiveness and forgive others, and then Jesus will forgive them. They are not to ask for forgiveness unless they forgive others as they want to be forgiven. The Lord's prayer shows this: "forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us." They go hand in and hand, and right along with what Jesus commanded.

Jesus also says this:

Matthew:38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Love for Enemies

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbori and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

This clearly shows how Jesus said to ignore the old rule of "eye for an eye" and to move into the new commandments of loving everyone, even your enemy, as yourself. The bible speaks for itself.

Unfortunately all of that has nothing to do with Jesus's views on the Old Testament. The fact of the matter is that the bible is a highly contradictory history/story book and Jesus supported the views held in the Old Testament(further adding to the extreme contradictory nature of the bible).

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17)

Yes, He came to fulfill them.

Instead of humans punishing people for their sin (eye for eye, stoning, etc), they're no need now, because they will either be judged upon death (for not asking for forgiveness for that sin), or they will ask for forgiveness and be given it through Jesus.

That's why He can say He came to fulfill them. He's died, and we have forgiveness now. Instead of a need for punishment, Jesus took the punishment for our sin, all of it, even sin that hasn't happened yet, when He died on the cross. There's no need for us to be hurt by our sin anymore.

Again, unfortunately that's all wrong. Him dying and forgiving people of their sins has absolutely nothing to do with the cruel laws and rules provided by "god the father" and his prophets in the Old Testament.

What you're doing, is admitting that Old and New Testament portions of the bible highly contradict each other. It's either "God" has multiple personality disorder of that it's all false.

Why do you think it had nothing to with the laws? It seemed to fit perfectly when I wrote the last post.

Because I already showed that Christ supported the laws in the Old Testament. It doesn't matter what new "laws" he enacted in the New Testament, the fact that he supported the ones in the old show that something is really off with the bible, and it's more likely he simply wanted to gain a Jewish following without off-putting them too much by completely rejecting the OT(which means he wasn't god, but a regular man looking to change the society around him). Noble, but not divine.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this. I think it was fairly obvious, especially thanks to the quote you put up.

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17)

He clearly fulfilled them through His death for our sins, and I see I'm not going to change your mind here.

You're not making sense. The point is that he supports the laws of the OT. That's the point, get it?

Many laws in the OT made by prophets or "spoken" by god are just cruel and downright evil, get it?

This shows the inconsistency and contradictory nature of the bible, get it?

Therefore, it's either everything is false or god has multiple personality disorder...get it?

K.

God has always wanted there to be a punishment for sinning. (OT)

God sent His only son to take the punishment for everyone's sins (Jesus dying on the cross)

God now lets us ask Jesus for forgiveness (NT), instead of going through the horrible punishments listed in the OT. That is why Jesus went through hell, was treated like crap, and hanged on a cross.

1 Peter 23 and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously; 24 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.

He lived by His new commandments (I've already posted), loved and trusted God wholly and did not sin against His neighbor as He would not want them to sin against Him. By fullfilling those commandments, He was able to take all the sin that should have been punished, and it was punished unto Him (then and there). Now there's no need for the punishing of sin for us, as He has already fulfilled it.

All of that is irrelevant. I'm not talking about there being a punishment for sinning and etc. Please stop going off-topic.

The fact that you think I'm going off-topic clearly shows you don't get it. I also had edited the previous post, you can read that too.

[celestio]

Old Testament and New Testament are starkly different in the rules department.

That's the point. One section allows for extreme cruelty, the other is about peace. Either "god" in the bible has multiple personality disorder or it's a book full of contradictory bullshit.

That's my point, but it certainly wasn't your point. Your point was to say Christians follow the OT rules, when they obviously are not supposed to and shouldn't.

Except that christ never rejected the Old Testament's rules, so my point is valid. Stop making up your own version of the bible, because it's wrong.

Jesus died for our sins. So we are not to sacrifice for sins anymore, because He was the final sacrifice and saved us from those sins. That's one example where things changed due to Him being here.

Second, Jesus gave us those 2 commandments: Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

When people sin, they are now to ask God for forgiveness and forgive others, and then Jesus will forgive them. They are not to ask for forgiveness unless they forgive others as they want to be forgiven. The Lord's prayer shows this: "forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us." They go hand in and hand, and right along with what Jesus commanded.

Jesus also says this:

Matthew:38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Love for Enemies

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbori and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

This clearly shows how Jesus said to ignore the old rule of "eye for an eye" and to move into the new commandments of loving everyone, even your enemy, as yourself. The bible speaks for itself.

Unfortunately all of that has nothing to do with Jesus's views on the Old Testament. The fact of the matter is that the bible is a highly contradictory history/story book and Jesus supported the views held in the Old Testament(further adding to the extreme contradictory nature of the bible).

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17)

Yes, He came to fulfill them.

Instead of humans punishing people for their sin (eye for eye, stoning, etc), they're no need now, because they will either be judged upon death (for not asking for forgiveness for that sin), or they will ask for forgiveness and be given it through Jesus.

That's why He can say He came to fulfill them. He's died, and we have forgiveness now. Instead of a need for punishment, Jesus took the punishment for our sin, all of it, even sin that hasn't happened yet, when He died on the cross. There's no need for us to be hurt by our sin anymore.

Again, unfortunately that's all wrong. Him dying and forgiving people of their sins has absolutely nothing to do with the cruel laws and rules provided by "god the father" and his prophets in the Old Testament.

What you're doing, is admitting that Old and New Testament portions of the bible highly contradict each other. It's either "God" has multiple personality disorder of that it's all false.

Why do you think it had nothing to with the laws? It seemed to fit perfectly when I wrote the last post.

Because I already showed that Christ supported the laws in the Old Testament. It doesn't matter what new "laws" he enacted in the New Testament, the fact that he supported the ones in the old show that something is really off with the bible, and it's more likely he simply wanted to gain a Jewish following without off-putting them too much by completely rejecting the OT(which means he wasn't god, but a regular man looking to change the society around him). Noble, but not divine.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this. I think it was fairly obvious, especially thanks to the quote you put up.

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17)

He clearly fulfilled them through His death for our sins, and I see I'm not going to change your mind here.

You're not making sense. The point is that he supports the laws of the OT. That's the point, get it?

Many laws in the OT made by prophets or "spoken" by god are just cruel and downright evil, get it?

This shows the inconsistency and contradictory nature of the bible, get it?

Therefore, it's either everything is false or god has multiple personality disorder...get it?

K.

God has always wanted there to be a punishment for sinning. (OT)

God sent His only son to take the punishment for everyone's sins (Jesus dying on the cross)

God now lets us ask Jesus for forgiveness (NT), instead of going through the horrible punishments listed in the OT. That is why Jesus went through hell, was treated like crap, and hanged on a cross.

1 Peter 23 and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously; 24 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.

He lived by His new commandments (I've already posted), loved and trusted God wholly and did not sin against His neighbor as He would not want them to sin against Him. By fullfilling those commandments, He was able to take all the sin that should have been punished, and it was punished unto Him (then and there). Now there's no need for the punishing of sin for us, as He has already fulfilled it.

All of that is irrelevant. I'm not talking about there being a punishment for sinning and etc. Please stop going off-topic.

The fact that you think I'm going off-topic clearly shows you don't get it. I also had edited the previous post, you can read that too.

Look, Jesus forgiving the sin of humans Has Nothing to do with him supporting the laws of the OT. What don't you understand? Are you trying to troll or just this confused...?

The point of the matter is that the OT is as relevant in Christianity as the NT, and that Christians ignoring the OT shows that they aren't truly Christians. It's especially pathetic when they selectively choose parts of the OT to listen to, such as about homosexuality, and ignore everything else, such as stoning to death those that commit crimes. So it's either something is truly wrong with these so called "christians" or something is truly wrong with the bible.

EDIT: Also, you interpreting Jesus's dying on the cross as getting rid of the OT rules is entirely wrong, as Jesus himself said the opposite. So you're basically twisting his words.

[BADecker]

The whole Bible is relevant for all people.

Those who consider themselves Jews are supposed to obey the whole O.T. forever, or until the Judgment Day, whichever comes first.

The rest of the people in the world are supposed to obey the moral laws in the O.T., especially with regard to not harming other people or damaging their property.

Everyone is supposed to gain wisdom about God and how their lives operate from the O.T.


The N.T. is for clarity with regard to salvation. It is given to the Gentiles as well as the Jews, because the Jews have failed in their mission to remain the pure nation that God wants.

The biggest part of the New Testament has to do with the peace between mankind and God through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. The whole N.T. has to do with peace among all people because there is peace with God.

[celestio]

The whole Bible is relevant for all people.

Those who consider themselves Jews are supposed to obey the whole O.T. forever, or until the Judgment Day, whichever comes first.

The rest of the people in the world are supposed to obey the moral laws in the O.T., especially with regard to not harming other people or damaging their property.

Everyone is supposed to gain wisdom about God and how their lives operate from the O.T.


The N.T. is for clarity with regard to salvation. It is given to the Gentiles as well as the Jews, because the Jews have failed in their mission to remain the pure nation that God wants.

The biggest part of the New Testament has to do with the peace between mankind and God through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. The whole N.T. has to do with peace among all people because there is peace with God.

Ok nice selective reasoning /s. You either obey all the laws in the bible, including the cruel/evil ones, or none. You BADecker, are not a true christian.

[BADecker]

The whole Bible is relevant for all people.

Those who consider themselves Jews are supposed to obey the whole O.T. forever, or until the Judgment Day, whichever comes first.

The rest of the people in the world are supposed to obey the moral laws in the O.T., especially with regard to not harming other people or damaging their property.

Everyone is supposed to gain wisdom about God and how their lives operate from the O.T.


The N.T. is for clarity with regard to salvation. It is given to the Gentiles as well as the Jews, because the Jews have failed in their mission to remain the pure nation that God wants.

The biggest part of the New Testament has to do with the peace between mankind and God through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. The whole N.T. has to do with peace among all people because there is peace with God.

Ok nice selective reasoning /s. You either obey all the laws in the bible, including the cruel/evil ones, or none. You BADecker, are not a true christian.

I have and am obeying all the laws in the Bible that apply to me. Since I am not a Jew (although I might have some Jew in my ancestry), I am not required to obey all the laws of the O.T. - only the moral ones.

Since I am obeying the only important N.T. law - to believe in Jesus as my Savior - the good works of Jesus are being applied to me. Though I make mistakes in a practical sense, it is as though I didn't, because Jesus' righteousness covers them.

[MakingMoneyHoney]

Old Testament and New Testament are starkly different in the rules department.

That's the point. One section allows for extreme cruelty, the other is about peace. Either "god" in the bible has multiple personality disorder or it's a book full of contradictory bullshit.

That's my point, but it certainly wasn't your point. Your point was to say Christians follow the OT rules, when they obviously are not supposed to and shouldn't.

Except that christ never rejected the Old Testament's rules, so my point is valid. Stop making up your own version of the bible, because it's wrong.

Jesus died for our sins. So we are not to sacrifice for sins anymore, because He was the final sacrifice and saved us from those sins. That's one example where things changed due to Him being here.

Second, Jesus gave us those 2 commandments: Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

When people sin, they are now to ask God for forgiveness and forgive others, and then Jesus will forgive them. They are not to ask for forgiveness unless they forgive others as they want to be forgiven. The Lord's prayer shows this: "forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us." They go hand in and hand, and right along with what Jesus commanded.

Jesus also says this:

Matthew:38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Love for Enemies

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbori and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

This clearly shows how Jesus said to ignore the old rule of "eye for an eye" and to move into the new commandments of loving everyone, even your enemy, as yourself. The bible speaks for itself.

Unfortunately all of that has nothing to do with Jesus's views on the Old Testament. The fact of the matter is that the bible is a highly contradictory history/story book and Jesus supported the views held in the Old Testament(further adding to the extreme contradictory nature of the bible).

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17)

Yes, He came to fulfill them.

Instead of humans punishing people for their sin (eye for eye, stoning, etc), they're no need now, because they will either be judged upon death (for not asking for forgiveness for that sin), or they will ask for forgiveness and be given it through Jesus.

That's why He can say He came to fulfill them. He's died, and we have forgiveness now. Instead of a need for punishment, Jesus took the punishment for our sin, all of it, even sin that hasn't happened yet, when He died on the cross. There's no need for us to be hurt by our sin anymore.

Again, unfortunately that's all wrong. Him dying and forgiving people of their sins has absolutely nothing to do with the cruel laws and rules provided by "god the father" and his prophets in the Old Testament.

What you're doing, is admitting that Old and New Testament portions of the bible highly contradict each other. It's either "God" has multiple personality disorder of that it's all false.

Why do you think it had nothing to with the laws? It seemed to fit perfectly when I wrote the last post.

Because I already showed that Christ supported the laws in the Old Testament. It doesn't matter what new "laws" he enacted in the New Testament, the fact that he supported the ones in the old show that something is really off with the bible, and it's more likely he simply wanted to gain a Jewish following without off-putting them too much by completely rejecting the OT(which means he wasn't god, but a regular man looking to change the society around him). Noble, but not divine.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this. I think it was fairly obvious, especially thanks to the quote you put up.

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17)

He clearly fulfilled them through His death for our sins, and I see I'm not going to change your mind here.

You're not making sense. The point is that he supports the laws of the OT. That's the point, get it?

Many laws in the OT made by prophets or "spoken" by god are just cruel and downright evil, get it?

This shows the inconsistency and contradictory nature of the bible, get it?

Therefore, it's either everything is false or god has multiple personality disorder...get it?

K.

God has always wanted there to be a punishment for sinning. (OT)

God sent His only son to take the punishment for everyone's sins (Jesus dying on the cross)

God now lets us ask Jesus for forgiveness (NT), instead of going through the horrible punishments listed in the OT. That is why Jesus went through hell, was treated like crap, and hanged on a cross.

1 Peter 23 and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously; 24 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.

He lived by His new commandments (I've already posted), loved and trusted God wholly and did not sin against His neighbor as He would not want them to sin against Him. By fullfilling those commandments, He was able to take all the sin that should have been punished, and it was punished unto Him (then and there). Now there's no need for the punishing of sin for us, as He has already fulfilled it.

All of that is irrelevant. I'm not talking about there being a punishment for sinning and etc. Please stop going off-topic.

The fact that you think I'm going off-topic clearly shows you don't get it. I also had edited the previous post, you can read that too.

Look, Jesus forgiving the sin of humans Has Nothing to do with him supporting the laws of the OT. What don't you understand? Are you trying to troll or just this confused...?

The point of the matter is that the OT is as relevant in Christianity as the NT, and that Christians ignoring the OT shows that they aren't truly Christians. It's especially pathetic when they selectively choose parts of the OT to listen to, such as about homosexuality, and ignore everything else, such as stoning to death those that commit crimes. So it's either something is truly wrong with these so called "christians" or something is truly wrong with the bible.

EDIT: Also, you interpreting Jesus's dying on the cross as getting rid of the OT rules is entirely wrong, as Jesus himself said the opposite. So you're basically twisting his words.

I know that the OT is necessary reading for Christians. Like I said, I read it all (except working on Psalms). You do have to get a feel for the whole bible to understand how everything fits. Because otherwise you get people who think God is multiple personality like you. I think we've had different ideas of "rules" which is causing you to be frustrated.

I didn't say he got rid of all of the rules (in the sense you mean). There's just no reason to sacrifice for our sins, because Jesus did already. Homosexuality is still a sin. The sins back then are still sins, but if there is anything that's in the OT that is not in the NT that says we have to do something in order to get grace, we don't.

But the rule of stoning someone is out, because we are to love each other, and God is the one who has the rights to punish, not us. If you would like to ask about specific rules, feel free.

Romans 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. 18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

You also didn't mention my edit. God sending Jesus to die for our sins in the horrible way He died, was what you might call torture of the worst kind. That is the NT, it's not like God seems more kind in the NT more than the OT torturing people for sins. This means He did not suddenly change His ideas on the dealing with sin. He always has believed that sin required torture/beating/sacrifices, etc. He just decided to step in and take it for us in the NT.

This shows that the Old and New Testaments are really woven together and pieced together wonderfully, not in the black or white contradictory manner you say it is.

Ok nice selective reasoning /s. You either obey all the laws in the bible, including the cruel/evil ones, or none. You BADecker, are not a true christian.

Which are the cruel evil ones in your opinon?

[celestio]

The whole Bible is relevant for all people.

Those who consider themselves Jews are supposed to obey the whole O.T. forever, or until the Judgment Day, whichever comes first.

The rest of the people in the world are supposed to obey the moral laws in the O.T., especially with regard to not harming other people or damaging their property.

Everyone is supposed to gain wisdom about God and how their lives operate from the O.T.


The N.T. is for clarity with regard to salvation. It is given to the Gentiles as well as the Jews, because the Jews have failed in their mission to remain the pure nation that God wants.

The biggest part of the New Testament has to do with the peace between mankind and God through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. The whole N.T. has to do with peace among all people because there is peace with God.

Ok nice selective reasoning /s. You either obey all the laws in the bible, including the cruel/evil ones, or none. You BADecker, are not a true christian.

I have and am obeying all the laws in the Bible that apply to me. Since I am not a Jew (although I might have some Jew in my ancestry), I am not required to obey all the laws of the O.T. - only the moral ones.

Since I am obeying the only important N.T. law - to believe in Jesus as my Savior - the good works of Jesus are being applied to me. Though I make mistakes in a practical sense, it is as though I didn't, because Jesus' righteousness covers them.

It doesn't matter if you're a Jew or not, Jesus supported the laws in the OT. Therefore the OT and NT are equally relevant, by you not following the OT, you're not truly following Jesus. You are not a true christian.

[celestio]

Old Testament and New Testament are starkly different in the rules department.

That's the point. One section allows for extreme cruelty, the other is about peace. Either "god" in the bible has multiple personality disorder or it's a book full of contradictory bullshit.

That's my point, but it certainly wasn't your point. Your point was to say Christians follow the OT rules, when they obviously are not supposed to and shouldn't.

Except that christ never rejected the Old Testament's rules, so my point is valid. Stop making up your own version of the bible, because it's wrong.

Jesus died for our sins. So we are not to sacrifice for sins anymore, because He was the final sacrifice and saved us from those sins. That's one example where things changed due to Him being here.

Second, Jesus gave us those 2 commandments: Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

When people sin, they are now to ask God for forgiveness and forgive others, and then Jesus will forgive them. They are not to ask for forgiveness unless they forgive others as they want to be forgiven. The Lord's prayer shows this: "forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us." They go hand in and hand, and right along with what Jesus commanded.

Jesus also says this:

Matthew:38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Love for Enemies

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbori and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

This clearly shows how Jesus said to ignore the old rule of "eye for an eye" and to move into the new commandments of loving everyone, even your enemy, as yourself. The bible speaks for itself.

Unfortunately all of that has nothing to do with Jesus's views on the Old Testament. The fact of the matter is that the bible is a highly contradictory history/story book and Jesus supported the views held in the Old Testament(further adding to the extreme contradictory nature of the bible).

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17)

Yes, He came to fulfill them.

Instead of humans punishing people for their sin (eye for eye, stoning, etc), they're no need now, because they will either be judged upon death (for not asking for forgiveness for that sin), or they will ask for forgiveness and be given it through Jesus.

That's why He can say He came to fulfill them. He's died, and we have forgiveness now. Instead of a need for punishment, Jesus took the punishment for our sin, all of it, even sin that hasn't happened yet, when He died on the cross. There's no need for us to be hurt by our sin anymore.

Again, unfortunately that's all wrong. Him dying and forgiving people of their sins has absolutely nothing to do with the cruel laws and rules provided by "god the father" and his prophets in the Old Testament.

What you're doing, is admitting that Old and New Testament portions of the bible highly contradict each other. It's either "God" has multiple personality disorder of that it's all false.

Why do you think it had nothing to with the laws? It seemed to fit perfectly when I wrote the last post.

Because I already showed that Christ supported the laws in the Old Testament. It doesn't matter what new "laws" he enacted in the New Testament, the fact that he supported the ones in the old show that something is really off with the bible, and it's more likely he simply wanted to gain a Jewish following without off-putting them too much by completely rejecting the OT(which means he wasn't god, but a regular man looking to change the society around him). Noble, but not divine.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this. I think it was fairly obvious, especially thanks to the quote you put up.

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17)

He clearly fulfilled them through His death for our sins, and I see I'm not going to change your mind here.

You're not making sense. The point is that he supports the laws of the OT. That's the point, get it?

Many laws in the OT made by prophets or "spoken" by god are just cruel and downright evil, get it?

This shows the inconsistency and contradictory nature of the bible, get it?

Therefore, it's either everything is false or god has multiple personality disorder...get it?

K.

God has always wanted there to be a punishment for sinning. (OT)

God sent His only son to take the punishment for everyone's sins (Jesus dying on the cross)

God now lets us ask Jesus for forgiveness (NT), instead of going through the horrible punishments listed in the OT. That is why Jesus went through hell, was treated like crap, and hanged on a cross.

1 Peter 23 and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously; 24 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.

He lived by His new commandments (I've already posted), loved and trusted God wholly and did not sin against His neighbor as He would not want them to sin against Him. By fullfilling those commandments, He was able to take all the sin that should have been punished, and it was punished unto Him (then and there). Now there's no need for the punishing of sin for us, as He has already fulfilled it.

All of that is irrelevant. I'm not talking about there being a punishment for sinning and etc. Please stop going off-topic.

The fact that you think I'm going off-topic clearly shows you don't get it. I also had edited the previous post, you can read that too.

Look, Jesus forgiving the sin of humans Has Nothing to do with him supporting the laws of the OT. What don't you understand? Are you trying to troll or just this confused...?

The point of the matter is that the OT is as relevant in Christianity as the NT, and that Christians ignoring the OT shows that they aren't truly Christians. It's especially pathetic when they selectively choose parts of the OT to listen to, such as about homosexuality, and ignore everything else, such as stoning to death those that commit crimes. So it's either something is truly wrong with these so called "christians" or something is truly wrong with the bible.

EDIT: Also, you interpreting Jesus's dying on the cross as getting rid of the OT rules is entirely wrong, as Jesus himself said the opposite. So you're basically twisting his words.

I know that the OT is necessary reading for Christians. Like I said, I read it all (except working on Psalms). You do have to get a feel for the whole bible to understand how everything fits. Because otherwise you get people who think God is multiple personality like you. I think we've had different ideas of "rules" which is causing you to be frustrated.

I didn't say he got rid of all of the rules (in the sense you mean). There's just no reason to sacrifice for our sins, because Jesus did already. Homosexuality is still a sin. The sins back then are still sins, but if there is anything that's in the OT that is not in the NT that says we have to do something in order to get grace, we don't.

But the rule of stoning someone is out, because we are to love each other, and God is the one who has the rights to punish, not us. If you would like to ask about specific rules, feel free.

Romans 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. 18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

You also didn't mention my edit. God sending Jesus to die for our sins in the horrible way He died, was what you might call torture of the worst kind. That is the NT, it's not like God seems more kind in the NT more than the OT torturing people for sins. This means He did not suddenly change His ideas on the dealing with sin. He always has believed that sin required torture/beating/sacrifices, etc. He just decided to step in and take it for us in the NT.

This shows that the Old and New Testaments are really woven together and pieced together wonderfully, not in the black or white contradictory manner you say it is.

Ok nice selective reasoning /s. You either obey all the laws in the bible, including the cruel/evil ones, or none. You BADecker, are not a true christian.

Which are the cruel evil ones in your opinon?

Again, the OT has cruel/evil laws, Jesus supports them. They are equally as relevant as the commands given by Jesus in the NT(love thy neighbor, god).

Step 1: Go to your nearest Bible

Step 2: Open it up and look inside

Step 3: Go to this site, http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/, or any other site detailing the atrocious acts and laws by god and his prophets in the OT, and look in your bible for them.

"God the father" and his prophets promote; rape, pedophilia, mass murder, incest, and more.

[BADecker]

The whole Bible is relevant for all people.

Those who consider themselves Jews are supposed to obey the whole O.T. forever, or until the Judgment Day, whichever comes first.

The rest of the people in the world are supposed to obey the moral laws in the O.T., especially with regard to not harming other people or damaging their property.

Everyone is supposed to gain wisdom about God and how their lives operate from the O.T.


The N.T. is for clarity with regard to salvation. It is given to the Gentiles as well as the Jews, because the Jews have failed in their mission to remain the pure nation that God wants.

The biggest part of the New Testament has to do with the peace between mankind and God through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. The whole N.T. has to do with peace among all people because there is peace with God.

Ok nice selective reasoning /s. You either obey all the laws in the bible, including the cruel/evil ones, or none. You BADecker, are not a true christian.

I have and am obeying all the laws in the Bible that apply to me. Since I am not a Jew (although I might have some Jew in my ancestry), I am not required to obey all the laws of the O.T. - only the moral ones.

Since I am obeying the only important N.T. law - to believe in Jesus as my Savior - the good works of Jesus are being applied to me. Though I make mistakes in a practical sense, it is as though I didn't, because Jesus' righteousness covers them.

It doesn't matter if you're a Jew or not, Jesus supported the laws in the OT. Therefore the OT and NT are equally relevant, by you not following the OT, you're not truly following Jesus. You are not a true christian.

A person who believes in Jesus salvation DOES obey all the laws, even though in a practical sense he might not. He obeys because any and every mistake he makes is covered by the righteousness of Jesus. Thus, he is essentially as though he had not sinned, had not broken any laws, even though he does.

If you want to accept that the Ceremonial Laws of the O.T. which were for the Jews apply to you, go ahead and do them. Really, they don't apply to anyone except the Jews and those who say they are Jews.

[MakingMoneyHoney]

Again, the OT has cruel/evil laws, Jesus supports them. They are equally as relevant as the commands given by Jesus in the NT(love thy neighbor, god).

Step 1: Go to your nearest Bible

Step 2: Open it up and look inside

Step 3: Go to this site, http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/, or any other site detailing the atrocious acts and laws by god and his prophets in the OT, and look in your bible for them.

"God the father" and his prophets promote; rape, pedophilia, mass murder, incest, and more.

Feel free to list any laws we are supposed to be following currently. There was definitely mass murder in the bible in the OT of those who were sinful, again those who are sinful now, just ask for forgiveness and it's given, because Jesus already died for those sins.

[celestio]

The whole Bible is relevant for all people.

Those who consider themselves Jews are supposed to obey the whole O.T. forever, or until the Judgment Day, whichever comes first.

The rest of the people in the world are supposed to obey the moral laws in the O.T., especially with regard to not harming other people or damaging their property.

Everyone is supposed to gain wisdom about God and how their lives operate from the O.T.


The N.T. is for clarity with regard to salvation. It is given to the Gentiles as well as the Jews, because the Jews have failed in their mission to remain the pure nation that God wants.

The biggest part of the New Testament has to do with the peace between mankind and God through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. The whole N.T. has to do with peace among all people because there is peace with God.

Ok nice selective reasoning /s. You either obey all the laws in the bible, including the cruel/evil ones, or none. You BADecker, are not a true christian.

I have and am obeying all the laws in the Bible that apply to me. Since I am not a Jew (although I might have some Jew in my ancestry), I am not required to obey all the laws of the O.T. - only the moral ones.

Since I am obeying the only important N.T. law - to believe in Jesus as my Savior - the good works of Jesus are being applied to me. Though I make mistakes in a practical sense, it is as though I didn't, because Jesus' righteousness covers them.

It doesn't matter if you're a Jew or not, Jesus supported the laws in the OT. Therefore the OT and NT are equally relevant, by you not following the OT, you're not truly following Jesus. You are not a true christian.

A person who believes in Jesus salvation DOES obey all the laws, even though in a practical sense he might not. He obeys because any and every mistake he makes is covered by the righteousness of Jesus. Thus, he is essentially as though he had not sinned, had not broken any laws, even though he does.

If you want to accept that the Ceremonial Laws of the O.T. which were for the Jews apply to you, go ahead and do them. Really, they don't apply to anyone except the Jews and those who say they are Jews.

So you're admitting that you don't truly believe in Jesus. The fact of the matter is that Jesus supported the OT, making the OT as relevant as the NT. If you obey the NT's laws, then obey the OT's laws. If you don't obey both, then you are not a true christian, just a superficial "believer".

[celestio]

Again, the OT has cruel/evil laws, Jesus supports them. They are equally as relevant as the commands given by Jesus in the NT(love thy neighbor, god).

Step 1: Go to your nearest Bible

Step 2: Open it up and look inside

Step 3: Go to this site, http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/, or any other site detailing the atrocious acts and laws by god and his prophets in the OT, and look in your bible for them.

"God the father" and his prophets promote; rape, pedophilia, mass murder, incest, and more.

Feel free to list any laws we are supposed to be following currently. There was definitely mass murder in the bible in the OT of those who were sinful, again those who are sinful now, just ask for forgiveness and it's given, because Jesus already died for those sins.

No, God in the OT allowed for the rape of young women, the murder of babies, children, and the elderly. I assume that babies and children are supposed to be innocent by default, correct?

Every single one of those laws are supposed to be followed, since the OT is as equally relevant as the NT.

[BADecker]

Again, the OT has cruel/evil laws, Jesus supports them. They are equally as relevant as the commands given by Jesus in the NT(love thy neighbor, god).

Step 1: Go to your nearest Bible

Step 2: Open it up and look inside

Step 3: Go to this site, http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/, or any other site detailing the atrocious acts and laws by god and his prophets in the OT, and look in your bible for them.

"God the father" and his prophets promote; rape, pedophilia, mass murder, incest, and more.

If God promoted it, then it is right and good and not evil.

Go to your nearest Bible and see the ways that God promoted anything. If the things He promotes apply to you, then obey. If they don't, then don't. But don't consider God evil.

Everything in the universe and beyond belongs to God, and you are badly mistaken when you say that He is evil. If you say such, then you are pushing yourself against God, the Maker and Owner of everything. It will wind up being you that are evil by opposing God.

[celestio]

Again, the OT has cruel/evil laws, Jesus supports them. They are equally as relevant as the commands given by Jesus in the NT(love thy neighbor, god).

Step 1: Go to your nearest Bible

Step 2: Open it up and look inside

Step 3: Go to this site, http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/, or any other site detailing the atrocious acts and laws by god and his prophets in the OT, and look in your bible for them.

"God the father" and his prophets promote; rape, pedophilia, mass murder, incest, and more.

If God promoted it, then it is right and good and not evil.

Go to your nearest Bible and see the ways that God promoted anything. If the things He promotes apply to you, then obey. If they don't, then don't. But don't consider God evil.

Everything in the universe and beyond belongs to God, and you are badly mistaken when you say that He is evil. If you say such, then you are pushing yourself against God, the Maker and Owner of everything. It will wind up being you that are evil by opposing God.

So then "god" promoting the murder of babies, children, the raping of young women, the murder of the elderly, the murder of adulteres, the murder of his own priests, means that, "it is right and good and not evil."?

You are the most delusional, pathetic man I have ever met. I'm done here. Now everyone can see why religious people are the bane of this world, we need freedom From religion.

EDIT: You're now on ignore BADecker, I don't talk to delusional sheep.

In the context that a true god actually exists, the "god" your following now BADecker would actually be Satan, just so you know. Stupid man.

[BADecker]

The whole Bible is relevant for all people.

Those who consider themselves Jews are supposed to obey the whole O.T. forever, or until the Judgment Day, whichever comes first.

The rest of the people in the world are supposed to obey the moral laws in the O.T., especially with regard to not harming other people or damaging their property.

Everyone is supposed to gain wisdom about God and how their lives operate from the O.T.


The N.T. is for clarity with regard to salvation. It is given to the Gentiles as well as the Jews, because the Jews have failed in their mission to remain the pure nation that God wants.

The biggest part of the New Testament has to do with the peace between mankind and God through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. The whole N.T. has to do with peace among all people because there is peace with God.

Ok nice selective reasoning /s. You either obey all the laws in the bible, including the cruel/evil ones, or none. You BADecker, are not a true christian.

I have and am obeying all the laws in the Bible that apply to me. Since I am not a Jew (although I might have some Jew in my ancestry), I am not required to obey all the laws of the O.T. - only the moral ones.

Since I am obeying the only important N.T. law - to believe in Jesus as my Savior - the good works of Jesus are being applied to me. Though I make mistakes in a practical sense, it is as though I didn't, because Jesus' righteousness covers them.

It doesn't matter if you're a Jew or not, Jesus supported the laws in the OT. Therefore the OT and NT are equally relevant, by you not following the OT, you're not truly following Jesus. You are not a true christian.

A person who believes in Jesus salvation DOES obey all the laws, even though in a practical sense he might not. He obeys because any and every mistake he makes is covered by the righteousness of Jesus. Thus, he is essentially as though he had not sinned, had not broken any laws, even though he does.

If you want to accept that the Ceremonial Laws of the O.T. which were for the Jews apply to you, go ahead and do them. Really, they don't apply to anyone except the Jews and those who say they are Jews.

So you're admitting that you don't truly believe in Jesus. The fact of the matter is that Jesus supported the OT, making the OT as relevant as the NT. If you obey the NT's laws, then obey the OT's laws. If you don't obey both, then you are not a true christian, just a superficial "believer".

The ceremonial laws were for the Jews and nobody else, except non-Jews living among the Jews. It has always been that way. There is no evidence anywhere in the O.T. where God applies the Jews' laws to anyone else, except for the moral laws. Such doesn't exist.

[BADecker]

Again, the OT has cruel/evil laws, Jesus supports them. They are equally as relevant as the commands given by Jesus in the NT(love thy neighbor, god).

Step 1: Go to your nearest Bible

Step 2: Open it up and look inside

Step 3: Go to this site, http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/, or any other site detailing the atrocious acts and laws by god and his prophets in the OT, and look in your bible for them.

"God the father" and his prophets promote; rape, pedophilia, mass murder, incest, and more.

If God promoted it, then it is right and good and not evil.

Go to your nearest Bible and see the ways that God promoted anything. If the things He promotes apply to you, then obey. If they don't, then don't. But don't consider God evil.

Everything in the universe and beyond belongs to God, and you are badly mistaken when you say that He is evil. If you say such, then you are pushing yourself against God, the Maker and Owner of everything. It will wind up being you that are evil by opposing God.

So then "god" promoting the murder of babies, children, the raping of young women, the murder of the elderly, the murder of adulteres, the murder of his own priests, means that, "it is right and good and not evil."?

You are the most delusional, pathetic man I have ever met. I'm done here. Now everyone can see why religious people are the bane of this world, we need freedom From religion.

EDIT: You're now on ignore BADecker, I don't talk to sheeple.

No, it is you who are mistaken to think that God promoted such things. But, even if He did, He is God and Owner of everything. Why are you setting yourself up against God?



EDIT: What's the matter? You place me on ignore because I have answers you can't resist. Consider what you are really doing. You are placing yourself on ignore with regard to the truth. You would rather sleep in your ignorance than wake up and look at reality.