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Author Topic: Blockchain split of 4 July 2015  (Read 45588 times)
Bitcoininspace
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July 05, 2015, 11:30:23 PM
 #301

I just wanna say good job to the OP above me for those awesome answers and for taking the time to reply to them, really made this thread make some more sense for us that aren't as techsavvy. Tongue
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July 05, 2015, 11:31:26 PM
 #302

so much for the security advantage of bitcoin
because of massive hashrate
compared to altcoins.....

another urban legend
to make bitcoin look superior busted

 
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July 05, 2015, 11:37:06 PM
 #303

I just wanna say good job to the OP above me for those awesome answers and for taking the time to reply to them, really made this thread make some more sense for us that aren't as techsavvy. Tongue

I second that....this guy is good. Smiley
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July 06, 2015, 12:12:47 AM
 #304

Thanks for the replies, @knightdk.  You write:

The devs deserve a fat slice of the blame for not programming a reasonable delay (say, 2 weeks) between the "95% majority" event and the activation of the BIP66 rule.  That delay would have given a chance for the remaining v2 miners and nodes, as well as more v2 clients, to upgrade to v3.  (Using blockchain voting to trigger protocol changes also seems a terrible idea, but that is another discussion.)
I don't think that a delay would have made a difference. BIP66 has been public for months, and so has the clients supporting it. Really the only way I think that the remaining miners would switch is after they realize that their v2 blocks are no longer being accepted because who likes change?

I doubt that 1% of the bitcoiners out there know what a BIP is.

I doubt that 0.1% of the bitcoiners out there knew that a soft fork due to BIP66 was due to happen this year.

A 2-week delay would have allowed the devs to send an alert to all nodes and miners still runing v2 to upgrade immediately or risk being cut off from the network and having their feet eaten by the boogeyman while they sleep.

A 2-week delay would also allow any v3 nodes that were turned off to catch up with the blockchain, and determine whether BIP66 was already in force of not.

The core devs or F2Pool's own devs may also deserve another fat slice of the blame, for the v3 software allowing v3 miners and nodes to receive blocks from v2-running miners and nodes after BIP66 was activated.
Can't really stop the reception of blocks, but F2Pool's own devs do deserve a lot of the blame for having SPV Mining that did not validate the blocks at all.

After BIP66 became active, any v3-running miner, node, or client should have ignored (or have disconnected from) any nodes that it knew were still running version v2.

More generally, the core devs approach to protocol changes seems to be like that of an airline that lets a plane take off with a known engine malfunction, and tries to fix it during flight -- because it does not want to alarm or inconvenience the passengers, or get bad exposure in the news...

And, AFAIK, "SPV mining" is only the most likely theory, not confirmed or proved yet.

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July 06, 2015, 12:30:46 AM
 #305

Thanks for the replies, @knightdk.  You write:

The devs deserve a fat slice of the blame for not programming a reasonable delay (say, 2 weeks) between the "95% majority" event and the activation of the BIP66 rule.  That delay would have given a chance for the remaining v2 miners and nodes, as well as more v2 clients, to upgrade to v3.  (Using blockchain voting to trigger protocol changes also seems a terrible idea, but that is another discussion.)
I don't think that a delay would have made a difference. BIP66 has been public for months, and so has the clients supporting it. Really the only way I think that the remaining miners would switch is after they realize that their v2 blocks are no longer being accepted because who likes change?

I doubt that 1% of the bitcoiners out there know what a BIP is.

I doubt that 0.1% of the bitcoiners out there knew that a soft fork due to BIP66 was due to happen this year.

A 2-week delay would have allowed the devs to send an alert to all nodes and miners still runing v2 to upgrade immediately or risk being cut off from the network and having their feet eaten by the boogeyman while they sleep.

A 2-week delay would also allow any v3 nodes that were turned off to catch up with the blockchain, and determine whether BIP66 was already in force of not.
Well forcing everyone to upgrade defeats the purpose of a soft-fork. The idea behind a soft-fork is that the new rules are still valid under the old rules. This makes soft-forks much easier to carry out and they are backwards compatible. What you are suggesting would be to make every soft-fork a hard-fork, which requires that everyone must upgrade otherwise they will be left off of the network. This is much more difficulty to carry out and I think such hard-forks have and will have the delay, alerts sent out, and monitoring of the situation before and after the fork.

Also, I would assume that all of the developers of Bitcoin stuff would be on the Bitcoin Development Mailing List (pretty big assumption). This mailing list discusses all of these changes when they come out and anyone following it would know that the BIP66 soft-fork was coming soon.

The core devs or F2Pool's own devs may also deserve another fat slice of the blame, for the v3 software allowing v3 miners and nodes to receive blocks from v2-running miners and nodes after BIP66 was activated.
Can't really stop the reception of blocks, but F2Pool's own devs do deserve a lot of the blame for having SPV Mining that did not validate the blocks at all.

After BIP66 became active, any v3-running miner, node, or client should have ignored (or have disconnected from) any nodes that it knew were still running version v2.
As I said above, this makes it a hard-fork, which is much more dangerous than a soft-fork and much more difficult to do. Also, disconnecting and alienating all nodes running v2 would disconnect more than 1/6 of the network. According to getaddr.bitnodes.io, it appears that more than 1000 nodes out of 6000-ish nodes are running old software, be it Core 0.9.5 or earlier or other old software. This would lose a significant portion of the network, and probably break Bitcoin's credibility.

More generally, the core devs approach to protocol changes seems to be like that of an airline that lets a plane take off with a know engine malfunction, and tries to fix it during flight -- because it does not want to alarm or inconvenience the passengers, or get bad exposure in the news...
Maybe... They want to avoid hard-forks because those can more negatively affect Bitcoin than soft-forks do. In situations where a soft-fork is not required, then a soft-fork will be done.

And, AFAIK, "SPV mining" is only the most likely theory, not confirmed or proved yet.
I believe that it has been both confirmed and proved by F2Pool and AntPool.

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July 06, 2015, 12:56:48 AM
 #306

I am still trying to understand what actually happened.

Okay, I'll try to help.
What I have read is that BTCNuggets, a miner that was still running v2 software, mined a block B'(N) that was valid by v2 criteria but invalid by v3 criteria.
Yes.  The software doing the block version upgrade to V3 was watching and had counted 950 of the last 1000 blocks having contained headers that said "block version=3".  Once that happened, any further blocks whose header said  "block version = 2" were supposed to be rejected.  

And at precisely that moment, at absolutely the first block where a "version = 2" block ought to have been rejected, BTCNuggets mined a block whose blockchain header said "block version = 2."

Somehow F2Pool, a miner that was running v3 software, received the header of this block and successfully mined a block B'(N+1) that was valid under v3 rules (empty, in fact) except for having an invalid parent.  As luck would have it, they also mined another (empty) block B'(N+2) with B'(N+1) as parent.  Then AntPool, who was running v3 software too, mined B'(N+3) on top of B'(N+2).  And so on; this was the 'bad' branch.

Slight edit here:  F2Pool and AntPool were not running correct software.   They had taken correct software and then deliberately modified it to make it wrong.  They stripped out the functionality of actually checking the block they were building on, because time spent checking a block for validity is not time spent mining, and - ASSUMING the block you've received is correct - spending more time mining makes you more money.  So F2Pool took this "version= 2" block from BTCNuggets, failed to check it, and built a "version = 3" block as the next block in the chain.  This version-3 block was not valid because it was built on a block that ought to've been rejected, but they'd never checked.  F2Pool and Antpool then built further on this new invalid block, never actually checking the original block from BTCNuggets.  If they had checked that block, they'd have known that the blocks they were building were invalid because that parent/grandparent/etc block originally built by BTCNuggets was invalid by the v3 rules.

When they did this, they built a chain that every full node checking the block chain and running correct software for block-version-3 would immediately reject no matter how long it got.

Meanwhile, other miners running v3 software either did not see block B'(N), or saw it and detected that it was not v3-valid; so they ignored it and eventually mined a block B''(N) that was v3-valid.  Several v3 miners solved additional v3-valid blocks B''(N+1), B''(N+2), etc. on top B''(N).  This was the 'good' branch.

Yes.  Miners that had not deliberately introduced this bug into their software, simply ignored the bad chain because its blocks are invalid, and continued to do as they always do - to work to extend the longest valid chain.  Likewise all v3-enabled clients were also ignoring the bad chain and would not regard a transaction as "real" unless it were included in a valid chain.  

For a while, the bad branch was ahead of the good one, in terms of total work.  Fortunately the devs and other bitcoin hackers were watching the blockchain to monitor the onset of BIP66, spotted the problem immediately, alerted F2Pool and AntPool that they were mining a v3-invalid chain, and sent out an alert recommending a 30-confirmation (5 hour) wait for important transactions.

Regardless of how far ahead the bad branch had gotten, nobody running correct V3-checking software would ever have been using its blocks as a criterion of whether a transaction were successful, because those were invalid blocks.  The bad fork could still be adding blocks today, and people running up-to-date software would be in absolutely no danger of being fooled.  As far as a full node is concerned, your transaction is not confirmed until it is in a VALID block.  

The only reason people were in danger of thinking a transaction was confirmed when it in fact was not, is because a lot of them are subject to exactly the same bug that F2Pool and AntPool deliberately added to their otherwise-correct code - they are not fully checking blocks for validity.  

In some cases this is because they are running lightweight phone clients or SPV wallets.  Some of those check most of the requirements for validity, but there is one condition that they cannot check without downloading the entire block chain, and that is that in order to be valid a block must be built on a valid parent block.

In other cases this is because they are using web wallets at places like blockchain.io, and have no idea whether or not the people holding their keys are checking the validity of blocks according to the v.3 rules. - in which case it's best to assume that they are not, otherwise  you're going to get "confirmed" transactions which later disappear.

Is this a correct summary of the events?

Approximately.  

* How many blocks were actually mined on the bad branch (starting form B'(N)) before it was abandoned?

Six.  Assuming nobody decides to mine another one.


* Were F2Pool, AntPool, and the other pools that mined on the bad chain running modified versions of the v3 core? If so, what were the modifications?

Yes.  They had deliberately introduced a bug into their code to avoid "wasting" time checking the validity of blocks.

* Did F2Pool realize that the BIP66 rules had already started to apply when they received B'(N) from BTCNuggets? (Say, perhaps it had counted only 949 v3 blocks, or had its counter reset recently, etc.)

Perhaps they knew BIP66 had gone into effect, but they weren't checking validity, so clearly they didn't care.

* How did F2Pool get the header of the invalid block B'(N): directly from BTCNuggets, from a v2-running relay node, or from a v3-running relay node?
Pretty sure it doesn't matter; given what they'd done to their mining software it would have done the same thing regardless.

* In the standard version of the v3 core software, do miners get the whole parent node and verify its validity?
Yes, absolutely.

* Could there be an off-by-one bug in the v3 core software, that would have resulted in F2Pool verifying B'(N) with pre-BIP66 rules instead of BIP66 rules?  (Note that a v3-valid node *can* have a v3-invalid parent, if the parent was mined before BIP66 went into effect.)
Nope,  I checked.  There is no off-by-one error in the functionality that they cut out of their client.

* If F2Pool knew that BIP66 had kicked in, and got B'(N) from a v2-running miner or node: why was it still accepting transactions, blocks, and block headers from v2-running players, without checking whether such data was v3-valid?
Because of not being willing to spend one-tenth of a second checking a block when that tenth of a second could be spent mining.  

* If a miner receives a block B(M), how many blocks B(M), B(M-1), B(M-2) etc. should it validate on its own before daring to mine B(M+1) on top of it?

ALL OF THEM.  The blocks between the current block and the genesis block.  When you receive one block you need to check one block.  And if you keep doing so, then at any given moment you're going to have complete proof of the validity of EVERY BLOCK from genesis to the current block.  

* Suppose that a miner receives block B(M) and starts validating it, while in parallel mining a new block B(M+1) on top of it; and happens to solve B(M+1) before the validation of B(M) is complete.  Should it broadcast B(M+1), or wait until the verification of B(M) is complete?

Clearly not at issue here; in more than one case, the previous block was more than ten seconds old before the next block came out, meaning there is absolutely no way that any attempt to check it was made.  Any such check would have failed WELL before then.

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July 06, 2015, 01:03:49 AM
 #307

did anyone LOSE BITCOINS as a result of this issue ?? That's what really matters ..

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July 06, 2015, 01:05:39 AM
 #308

did anyone LOSE BITCOINS as a result of this issue ?? That's what really matters ..
I don't think so besides BTCNuggets, F2Pool, and Antpool for 6 block rewards and wasted time and effort. There were no transactions in the fork except for the first invalid block from BTCNuggets which I believe got confirmed in the correct chain.

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July 06, 2015, 01:11:55 AM
 #309

did anyone LOSE BITCOINS as a result of this issue ?? That's what really matters ..
I don't think so besides BTCNuggets, F2Pool, and Antpool for 6 block rewards and wasted time and effort. There were no transactions in the fork except for the first invalid block from BTCNuggets which I believe got confirmed in the correct chain.

To clarify: All the transactions in the BTCNuggets block, EXCEPT for the coinbase, which was an invalid transaction, were later included and confirmed in the valid chain.  The other blocks in this fork did not contain any valid transactions; only their coinbases, which were invalid.
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July 06, 2015, 01:59:52 AM
 #310

So they did not want to verify the blocks with 1MB because of the size and now 8MB blocks come. Roll Eyes At least they have a hard lesson that its risky to not verify. I mean they lost quite some, mining on the wrong fork. On top they are depending on users that might leave them now.

Can anyone explain why a miner wouldn't simply verify the last block in parallel with their mining computations?
Let their ASICS hash while another machine double checks the last block.  What's wrong with that?

This is what I'm wondering too. The client probably isn't optimised for mining, but surely with custom software it would be possible to save state when a block is received from a peer, then immediately begin work on the new block. At the same time, verify the block that has just been received; if it turns out to be invalid, restore state and continue work on the "old" block.

This way you still get the speed advantage, but with the added safety of consistency checks.
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July 06, 2015, 02:05:23 AM
 #311

So they did not want to verify the blocks with 1MB because of the size and now 8MB blocks come. Roll Eyes At least they have a hard lesson that its risky to not verify. I mean they lost quite some, mining on the wrong fork. On top they are depending on users that might leave them now.

Can anyone explain why a miner wouldn't simply verify the last block in parallel with their mining computations?
Let their ASICS hash while another machine double checks the last block.  What's wrong with that?

This is what I'm wondering too. The client probably isn't optimised for mining, but surely with custom software it would be possible to save state when a block is received from a peer, then immediately begin work on the new block. At the same time, verify the block that has just been received; if it turns out to be invalid, restore state and continue work on the "old" block.

This way you still get the speed advantage, but with the added safety of consistency checks.
It appears that F2Pool did, but had it disabled when the fork happened due to a bug from losing an orphan race a few months ago. It seems that they implemented a fix for that bug, but the code is not refined yet.

Source:
First, we are not a pure SPV mining operation. We only do that within seconds after a new block is found on the network. We did have a safe guard in the beginning which falls back to the verified block template if after one or two minutes the local bitcoind still not able to catch up with the udp notification. But the safe guard was disabled due to bug when we lost an orphan race a few months ago. We have already implemented a quick fix. It should be ok now. And we will further refine the code in the next few days.

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July 06, 2015, 02:31:38 AM
 #312

The problem is solved now?
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July 06, 2015, 03:06:23 AM
 #313

so much for the security advantage of bitcoin
because of massive hashrate
compared to altcoins.....

another urban legend
to make bitcoin look superior busted

No matter how big the army, it cannot defend the country from an internal war.

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July 06, 2015, 03:15:49 AM
 #314

Thanks @knightdk again for the reply. You write:

Well forcing everyone to upgrade defeats the purpose of a soft-fork. The idea behind a soft-fork is that the new rules are still valid under the old rules. This makes soft-forks much easier to carry out and they are backwards compatible. What you are suggesting would be to make every soft-fork a hard-fork, which requires that everyone must upgrade otherwise they will be left off of the network. This is much more difficulty to carry out and I think such hard-forks have and will have the delay, alerts sent out, and monitoring of the situation before and after the fork.

[ ... ]

As I said above, [ rejecting connections from outdated players ] makes it a hard-fork, which is much more dangerous than a soft-fork and much more difficult to do. Also, disconnecting and alienating all nodes running v2 would disconnect more than 1/6 of the network. According to getaddr.bitnodes.io, it appears that more than 1000 nodes out of 6000-ish nodes are running old software, be it Core 0.9.5 or earlier or other old software. This would lose a significant portion of the network, and probably break Bitcoin's credibility.

In understand that clients don't need to update if a soft fork only makes the rules for blocks more restrictive.  However, if it makes the rules for transactions more restrictive too, then the clients must update anyway, otherwise their transactions will be rejected (except by nodes and miners who are still running the old version, which may cause those transactions to be confirmed and then unconfirmed).  isn't that so? Isn't that the case of BIP66?

I believe that [ the "SPV mining hypothesis ] has been both confirmed and proved by F2Pool and AntPool.

Indeed, I see the quote in other posts.

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July 06, 2015, 03:54:48 AM
 #315

Thanks @Cryddit for the replies! You write:

F2Pool and AntPool were not running correct software.   They had taken correct software and then deliberately modified it to make it wrong.  

Well, it is debatable whether it can be called "wrong".  It is more risky for the miner, and not what the bitcoin devs think that the miner should do, and not as helpful to the system as the others would think.  But miners have no obligation to behave in any particular way.  Each miner has the right to run whatever software he wants and output any blocks he wants.  The economic incentives are supposed to lead him, through self-interest, to behave in a way that is best for the system.  If the incentives are right but the miner doesn't act in his best interests, it is his problem, not anyone else's.  But if the incentives actually encourage a behavior that is bad for the system, it is a flaw of the protocol.

When they opted for "SPV mining", it was because they thought it would increase their revenue. In this case it didn't, but maybe it paid off overall.  Perhaps they overreacted to that incident that made them disable the verification code (when they lost ~6000 USD in an orphaned block because of a few seconds of delay); or perhaps "SPV mining" indeed saved them from several other incidents. 

Anyway, it should be their problem to figure that out and do what they think is best for them.  Their losses in that chain should not be of concert to anyone... except that there were many v2 nodes and clients out there that got confused because, by their criteria, the 'bad' chain was fully valid and was the longest chain. 

So, I insist that the devs deserve a fat slice of the blame: for not having a delay after the "95% majority" event, and because they choose to do a riskier manoeuver (allow v3 nodes and miners interact with v2 clients) for PR reasons (to keep clients unaware of the change, and let them run the v2 version even after it went into effect).

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July 06, 2015, 04:00:08 AM
 #316

i m using btc e so here ill be same as this post?

suntrust vba $8 instant verify vcc start with 4$  http://cheapvccs.com
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July 06, 2015, 05:02:00 AM
 #317

so much for the security advantage of bitcoin
because of massive hashrate
compared to altcoins.....

another urban legend
to make bitcoin look superior busted

Well, maybe you're correct that a solid hashrate to defend against 51% attacks is just an urban legend.  Or maybe it also has to do with the idea that having a massive hashrate means massive interest in using a given coin.   I'll be sure to double-check that with the devs of the 1001 altcoins that have gone down the tubes over the past year for not having a single miner.

With respect to security, though, there's this:

did anyone LOSE BITCOINS as a result of this issue ?? That's what really matters ..
I don't think so besides BTCNuggets, F2Pool, and Antpool for 6 block rewards and wasted time and effort. There were no transactions in the fork except for the first invalid block from BTCNuggets which I believe got confirmed in the correct chain.

So, I dunno, you're probably right bitcoin's usefullness and popularity are also just "urban legends".  But I'll have to double check that tomorrow after I buy some stuff for my house on overstock.com using bitcoin.
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July 06, 2015, 05:06:51 AM
 #318

So, I dunno, you're probably right bitcoin's usefullness and popularity are also just "urban legends".  But I'll have to double check that tomorrow after I buy some stuff for my house on overstock.com using bitcoin.

You mean: after you sell some of your bitcoins for dollars through BitPay, and buy some stuff on overstock.com using those dollars.  Wink

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July 06, 2015, 05:32:42 AM
 #319

In this event, it is Blockchain.info that I blame the most!  They are the ones that created confusion within the community. They didn't do their job (again?).  They have an official wallet and they are (were?) the source of blockchain statistic that people came to trust. They should have validated blocks for their users - they didn't.  Didn't they also had a bug, a few months ago, on bitcoin addresses generation, related to entropy?  bc.i should have insured that the correct blockchain (v3) was displayed on their stat page - not the (v2) fork - they know better!

I agree with this partly. While bc.i has been providing an invaluable service, they seem to be having a lot of bugs lately.
However, its not their fault if people start conflating bitcoin with bc.i.

BTW, from what I gleaned from their error messages over the months, they are using (possibly modded) bitcoinj. In SPV mode this also would not validate BIP66.

On a different note, here's one proposed solution for SPV nodes that does not require us to wait for 30 confirmations. Please comment on its correctness.

Let us assume that an "invalid chain" cannot be more than 50 blocks.

Step 1. We boot our SPV node "now", several days after the July 4 fork.
Step 2. We receive the mth block, say b_m. We ensure that b_m is version 3 block.
Step 3. We need to ensure that at least 50 previous blocks before b_m were also correct. We download those blocks (not just the headers).
  That is blocks b_{m-50}, b_{m-49}... b_{m-1}. Then we ensure that all were version 3, have correct signatures, etc, and correctly validate the next block (via the prevBlockHash).
Step 4. We can start counting b_m as a block of a valid chain if above checks pass.
Step 5. For any further received blocks, we follow steps 2, 4, 5 (skipping steps 1 and 3), since we have already validated 50 blocks before the "boot" block. Hence we validating only with block b_{m-1} is sufficient.



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July 06, 2015, 07:30:20 AM
 #320

I sent btc to yobit but its weird that my btc did not show up on account instead auto withdrawal to another btc address,i never encounter such thing before,does this blockchain problem or what i dont know,i only know i lost my bitcoin
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