[LOAN] Seeking 100 BTC Loan for Mining Rig

[yjacket]

I don't think you get it.

When ASICs come out, and they will, your GPUs will be worthless. LTC mining won't be profitable, for the reasons you describe(switching to LTC when ASIC comes out). This is a zero some sum game and you will have competition from all those who choose to stick with GPUs when the ASIC bomb drops on them. You will not be profitable!

So the main question is "when will ASICs appear?". If they come out in the next month, you will have 15 btc to pay back a 100btc loan and have no income. repeat for 7 months. If you think they won't be out in 7 months then your loan might make sense. The consensus is that they will appear +/- 1 month from Jan 1st. I tend to agree. Regardless of the consensus view, the whole threat of ASICs is a wild card that brings a tremendous amount of risk with regards to GPU mining investments. If I were to loan you the money, i would want an unreasonable amount of interest(75%monthly) to cover this risk.

So keep going on about how you can make it work. Regardless of whether or not you can(you can't),  NO ONE IS GOING TO LOAN YOU BTC FOR THIS INVSTMENT!

Come back with a better plan and then you might get a loan.

Good luck with your job search.

[yjacket]

The difficulty level for LTC is still a LONG way from reaching the difficulty level that BTC is at, all the people mining BTC are upgrading to ASIC's so that they can continue to mine BTC, so I really don't think it's going to be a problem even when the ASIC's come out.

I think you are very wrong on this. Here is what happens when just one bitcoin miner switches to litecoin:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=112540.0

He had around 0.05% of the bitcoin network and now he has 5% of litecoin. Imagine what will happen if just 10% of bitcoin miners switch to litecoin.

And when those miners make that move anyone mining LTC for less than 1 MH/s (which these low hashrate users make up about 70% - 90% of ANY given pool) is likely to move on to something else as LTC becomes less profitable which will balance the influx of large hashrates. Within a week or two I expect that the LTC network will stabilize and it will be like nothing ever happened.

If and when LTC becomes less profitable I will reinvest into the best mining tech available at that time and move my existing rig to mining BTC/NMC/PPC and/or whatever else is the most profitable choice for my setup at the time.

We can speculate all day on what we THINK will happen as the ASIC's come out and the difficulty rises and the BTC rewards are halved, but we can't know jack until it actually happens. What I do know is that market trends are in my favor and I am more than capable of turning a profit with access to the right equipment.

So you are saying that the large amount of 1 MH/s miners departing will counteract the influx? Again, that fucking retarded. There are people with 20GH/s GPU mining rigs. The bitcoin network has far more hashpower than LTC and a switch over will still increase the total network hash of LTC even if all current LTC miners leave. 

[c4n10]

I don't think you get it.

When ASICs come out, and they will, your GPUs will be worthless. LTC mining won't be profitable, for the reasons you describe(switching to LTC when ASIC comes out). This is a zero some sum game and you will have competition from all those who choose to stick with GPUs when the ASIC bomb drops on them. You will not be profitable!

So the main question is "when will ASICs appear?". If they come out in the next month, you will have 15 btc to pay back a 100btc loan and have no income. repeat for 7 months. If you think they won't be out in 7 months then your loan might make sense. The consensus is that they will appear +/- 1 month from Jan 1st. I tend to agree. Regardless of the consensus view, the whole threat of ASICs is a wild card that brings a tremendous amount of risk with regards to GPU mining investments. If I were to loan you the money, i would want an unreasonable amount of interest(75%monthly) to cover this risk.

So keep going on about how you can make it work. Regardless of whether or not you can(you can't),  NO ONE IS GOING TO LOAN YOU BTC FOR THIS INVSTMENT!

Come back with a better plan and then you might get a loan.

Good luck with your job search.

Again, you're missing the point that when the LTC network gets flooded with BTC gpu miners it will cause an outflux of users with bandwidth under 1 MH/s which will re-stabilize the LTC network. Unless you think all those low hashers are going to stick around when there's "no profit to be made".

And again, if the LTC market does become less profitable then I will point my miners to BTC/PPC/NMC or whatever else has the potential for profit.

And AGAIN, 15 BTC is more than enough to buy my first ASIC, IF and WHEN they come out. IF and WHEN they come out, IF the community vouches that they are worthwhile, I WILL start buying them as I can afford them, but as it stands I'm not putting ANY faith into a technology that was supposed to have been released already and now might not even come out until January. And when January rolls around and they say, "well it's probably going to be March before they're ready" then we'll see just how stupid my plan was.

As it stands your arguments are not based in any kind of fact, only mere speculation and it's reading a LOT like someone who is either trolling me or someone who is trying to talk me into a ridiculously high interest rate for this loan. Either way, I don't give two shakes about what your opinion is, you have stated it, your point has been presented, considered and declared irrelevant so feel free to move along.

[c4n10]

The difficulty level for LTC is still a LONG way from reaching the difficulty level that BTC is at, all the people mining BTC are upgrading to ASIC's so that they can continue to mine BTC, so I really don't think it's going to be a problem even when the ASIC's come out.

I think you are very wrong on this. Here is what happens when just one bitcoin miner switches to litecoin:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=112540.0

He had around 0.05% of the bitcoin network and now he has 5% of litecoin. Imagine what will happen if just 10% of bitcoin miners switch to litecoin.

And when those miners make that move anyone mining LTC for less than 1 MH/s (which these low hashrate users make up about 70% - 90% of ANY given pool) is likely to move on to something else as LTC becomes less profitable which will balance the influx of large hashrates. Within a week or two I expect that the LTC network will stabilize and it will be like nothing ever happened.

If and when LTC becomes less profitable I will reinvest into the best mining tech available at that time and move my existing rig to mining BTC/NMC/PPC and/or whatever else is the most profitable choice for my setup at the time.

We can speculate all day on what we THINK will happen as the ASIC's come out and the difficulty rises and the BTC rewards are halved, but we can't know jack until it actually happens. What I do know is that market trends are in my favor and I am more than capable of turning a profit with access to the right equipment.

So you are saying that the large amount of 1 MH/s miners departing will counteract the influx? Again, that fucking retarded. There are people with 20GH/s GPU mining rigs. The bitcoin network has far more hashpower than LTC and a switch over will still increase the total network hash of LTC even if all current LTC miners leave. 

They're 20 GH/s BTC setups won't be 20 GH/s setups on the LTC network. Have you ever mined LTC? If so, you should know that you don't get anywhere NEAR the same hash rates as on the BTC network even using the same hardware and exact same miners.

[yjacket]

I don't think you get it.

When ASICs come out, and they will, your GPUs will be worthless. LTC mining won't be profitable, for the reasons you describe(switching to LTC when ASIC comes out). This is a zero some sum game and you will have competition from all those who choose to stick with GPUs when the ASIC bomb drops on them. You will not be profitable!

So the main question is "when will ASICs appear?". If they come out in the next month, you will have 15 btc to pay back a 100btc loan and have no income. repeat for 7 months. If you think they won't be out in 7 months then your loan might make sense. The consensus is that they will appear +/- 1 month from Jan 1st. I tend to agree. Regardless of the consensus view, the whole threat of ASICs is a wild card that brings a tremendous amount of risk with regards to GPU mining investments. If I were to loan you the money, i would want an unreasonable amount of interest(75%monthly) to cover this risk.

So keep going on about how you can make it work. Regardless of whether or not you can(you can't),  NO ONE IS GOING TO LOAN YOU BTC FOR THIS INVSTMENT!

Come back with a better plan and then you might get a loan.

Good luck with your job search.

Again, you're missing the point that when the LTC network gets flooded with BTC gpu miners it will cause an outflux of users with bandwidth under 1 MH/s which will re-stabilize the LTC network. Unless you think all those low hashers are going to stick around when there's "no profit to be made".

And again, if the LTC market does become less profitable then I will point my miners to BTC/PPC/NMC or whatever else has the potential for profit.

And AGAIN, 15 BTC is more than enough to buy my first ASIC, IF and WHEN they come out. IF and WHEN they come out, IF the community vouches that they are worthwhile, I WILL start buying them as I can afford them, but as it stands I'm not putting ANY faith into a technology that was supposed to have been released already and now might not even come out until January. And when January rolls around and they say, "well it's probably going to be March before they're ready" then we'll see just how stupid my plan was.

As it stands your arguments are not based in any kind of fact, only mere speculation and it's reading a LOT like someone who is either trolling me or someone who is trying to talk me into a ridiculously high interest rate for this loan. Either way, I don't give two shakes about what your opinion is, you have stated it, your point has been presented, considered and declared irrelevant so feel free to move along.

Not trying to troll and i'm not trying to make you take out such a loan(which is why i said unreasonable).

With that said, if you going to say I have no facts, then I don't think you have many either. You've stated that all 1mh miners will leave if all the btc gpus are redirected there and somehow it will have close to the same amount of total power. Got a citation for that?

[c4n10]

I don't think you get it.

When ASICs come out, and they will, your GPUs will be worthless. LTC mining won't be profitable, for the reasons you describe(switching to LTC when ASIC comes out). This is a zero some sum game and you will have competition from all those who choose to stick with GPUs when the ASIC bomb drops on them. You will not be profitable!

So the main question is "when will ASICs appear?". If they come out in the next month, you will have 15 btc to pay back a 100btc loan and have no income. repeat for 7 months. If you think they won't be out in 7 months then your loan might make sense. The consensus is that they will appear +/- 1 month from Jan 1st. I tend to agree. Regardless of the consensus view, the whole threat of ASICs is a wild card that brings a tremendous amount of risk with regards to GPU mining investments. If I were to loan you the money, i would want an unreasonable amount of interest(75%monthly) to cover this risk.

So keep going on about how you can make it work. Regardless of whether or not you can(you can't),  NO ONE IS GOING TO LOAN YOU BTC FOR THIS INVSTMENT!

Come back with a better plan and then you might get a loan.

Good luck with your job search.

Again, you're missing the point that when the LTC network gets flooded with BTC gpu miners it will cause an outflux of users with bandwidth under 1 MH/s which will re-stabilize the LTC network. Unless you think all those low hashers are going to stick around when there's "no profit to be made".

And again, if the LTC market does become less profitable then I will point my miners to BTC/PPC/NMC or whatever else has the potential for profit.

And AGAIN, 15 BTC is more than enough to buy my first ASIC, IF and WHEN they come out. IF and WHEN they come out, IF the community vouches that they are worthwhile, I WILL start buying them as I can afford them, but as it stands I'm not putting ANY faith into a technology that was supposed to have been released already and now might not even come out until January. And when January rolls around and they say, "well it's probably going to be March before they're ready" then we'll see just how stupid my plan was.

As it stands your arguments are not based in any kind of fact, only mere speculation and it's reading a LOT like someone who is either trolling me or someone who is trying to talk me into a ridiculously high interest rate for this loan. Either way, I don't give two shakes about what your opinion is, you have stated it, your point has been presented, considered and declared irrelevant so feel free to move along.

Not trying to troll and i'm not trying to make you take out such a loan(which is why i said unreasonable).

With that said, if you going to say I have no facts, then I don't think you have many either. You've stated that all 1mh miners will leave if all the btc gpus are redirected there and somehow it will have close to the same amount of total power. Got a citation for that?

I don't have any more citation for my information than you do for yours. We are both, as I said earlier, merely speculating.

[yjacket]

The difficulty level for LTC is still a LONG way from reaching the difficulty level that BTC is at, all the people mining BTC are upgrading to ASIC's so that they can continue to mine BTC, so I really don't think it's going to be a problem even when the ASIC's come out.

I think you are very wrong on this. Here is what happens when just one bitcoin miner switches to litecoin:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=112540.0

He had around 0.05% of the bitcoin network and now he has 5% of litecoin. Imagine what will happen if just 10% of bitcoin miners switch to litecoin.

And when those miners make that move anyone mining LTC for less than 1 MH/s (which these low hashrate users make up about 70% - 90% of ANY given pool) is likely to move on to something else as LTC becomes less profitable which will balance the influx of large hashrates. Within a week or two I expect that the LTC network will stabilize and it will be like nothing ever happened.

If and when LTC becomes less profitable I will reinvest into the best mining tech available at that time and move my existing rig to mining BTC/NMC/PPC and/or whatever else is the most profitable choice for my setup at the time.

We can speculate all day on what we THINK will happen as the ASIC's come out and the difficulty rises and the BTC rewards are halved, but we can't know jack until it actually happens. What I do know is that market trends are in my favor and I am more than capable of turning a profit with access to the right equipment.

So you are saying that the large amount of 1 MH/s miners departing will counteract the influx? Again, that fucking retarded. There are people with 20GH/s GPU mining rigs. The bitcoin network has far more hashpower than LTC and a switch over will still increase the total network hash of LTC even if all current LTC miners leave. 

They're 20 GH/s BTC setups won't be 20 GH/s setups on the LTC network. Have you ever mined LTC? If so, you should know that you don't get anywhere NEAR the same hash rates as on the BTC network even using the same hardware and exact same miners.

I know that. My point apparently wasn't very clear. The bitcoin network has far more GPUs than the LTC network. That means that if most of them shifted, even with all the current LTC miners leaving, the LTC network would still expand.

[yjacket]

So i think my point is clear. A large GPU mining investment at this time is highly risky and not worth the limited return. Also, BFL has not missed a deadline on their ASICs, yet.

[c4n10]

The difficulty level for LTC is still a LONG way from reaching the difficulty level that BTC is at, all the people mining BTC are upgrading to ASIC's so that they can continue to mine BTC, so I really don't think it's going to be a problem even when the ASIC's come out.

I think you are very wrong on this. Here is what happens when just one bitcoin miner switches to litecoin:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=112540.0

He had around 0.05% of the bitcoin network and now he has 5% of litecoin. Imagine what will happen if just 10% of bitcoin miners switch to litecoin.

And when those miners make that move anyone mining LTC for less than 1 MH/s (which these low hashrate users make up about 70% - 90% of ANY given pool) is likely to move on to something else as LTC becomes less profitable which will balance the influx of large hashrates. Within a week or two I expect that the LTC network will stabilize and it will be like nothing ever happened.

If and when LTC becomes less profitable I will reinvest into the best mining tech available at that time and move my existing rig to mining BTC/NMC/PPC and/or whatever else is the most profitable choice for my setup at the time.

We can speculate all day on what we THINK will happen as the ASIC's come out and the difficulty rises and the BTC rewards are halved, but we can't know jack until it actually happens. What I do know is that market trends are in my favor and I am more than capable of turning a profit with access to the right equipment.

So you are saying that the large amount of 1 MH/s miners departing will counteract the influx? Again, that fucking retarded. There are people with 20GH/s GPU mining rigs. The bitcoin network has far more hashpower than LTC and a switch over will still increase the total network hash of LTC even if all current LTC miners leave. 

They're 20 GH/s BTC setups won't be 20 GH/s setups on the LTC network. Have you ever mined LTC? If so, you should know that you don't get anywhere NEAR the same hash rates as on the BTC network even using the same hardware and exact same miners.

I know that. My point apparently wasn't very clear. The bitcoin network has far more GPUs than the LTC network. That means that if most of them shifted, even with all the current LTC miners leaving, the LTC network would still expand.

Only time will tell, but continue to speculate if you wish.

[c4n10]

So i think my point is clear. A large GPU mining investment at this time is highly risky and not worth the limited return. Also, BFL has not missed a deadline on their ASICs, yet.

I read that ASIC's were supposed to ship in September or October, then that date was pushed back to +1/-1 month from January.

Either way, it's funny, because the mining hardware comparison wiki used to have an asic's section that described the claimed hashrates, prices and expected delivery dates of each asic. Now that section is gone...

[yjacket]

So i think my point is clear. A large GPU mining investment at this time is highly risky and not worth the limited return. Also, BFL has not missed a deadline on their ASICs, yet.

I read that ASIC's were supposed to ship in September or October, then that date was pushed back to +1/-1 month from January.

Either way, it's funny, because the mining hardware comparison wiki used to have an asic's section that described the claimed hashrates, prices and expected delivery dates of each asic. Now that section is gone...

The claimed date is still October, the general feeling is that its going to be January +1/-1 month. That section should never have been on the wiki. Also, please understand - ASICs are not a new process or anything. Nothing about what BFL is doing is revolutionary or unproven, other than that it's for bitcoin.

[c4n10]

So i think my point is clear. A large GPU mining investment at this time is highly risky and not worth the limited return. Also, BFL has not missed a deadline on their ASICs, yet.

I read that ASIC's were supposed to ship in September or October, then that date was pushed back to +1/-1 month from January.

Either way, it's funny, because the mining hardware comparison wiki used to have an asic's section that described the claimed hashrates, prices and expected delivery dates of each asic. Now that section is gone...

The claimed date is still October, the general feeling is that its going to be January +1/-1 month. That section should never have been on the wiki. Also, please understand - ASICs are not a new process or anything. Nothing about what BFL is doing is revolutionary or unproven, other than that it's for bitcoin.

LOL!!! I was an FC in the Navy, fully trained and educated in AC/DC theory, AC/DC circuits, solid state electronics, digital logic circuits and more. I assure you, I know what an ASIC is and that they are FAR from being new technology.

[SAC]

They're 20 GH/s BTC setups won't be 20 GH/s setups on the LTC network. Have you ever mined LTC? If so, you should know that you don't get anywhere NEAR the same hash rates as on the BTC network even using the same hardware and exact same miners.

I have and have crunched the numbers. You can get ~90% of your rate in mh/s so your 20gh/s BTC gets 18mh/s LTC in your example here at a cost of 10% extra on the power consumed, if you were under clocking your memory if not then the power consumed stays roughly the same.