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Author Topic: Are we stress testing again?  (Read 33162 times)
Argwai96
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July 08, 2015, 01:28:56 PM
 #141

Ok, so does anybody have any clue when will my transaction go through?
Is there anything that can be done to speed the things up?
Thanks guys.
https://blockchain.info/address/1HpaHwTwtk2BHQ7QRGPrvvG2KQm5F1vL4w
You might be waiting a while for that one. If you send any more transactions try increasing the fee.

yea most likely is better now to look at the transactions volume before even sending one to make sure you have to adjust the fee manually and pay a little more to have it confirm faster.
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July 08, 2015, 01:43:36 PM
 #142

This isn't a stress test anymore boys it's an attack to convice us to fork.

Gavins plan is just way to aggressive.

I would agree to a doubling every 4 years to ensure the hardware advances well faster than the chain.



The plan can be changed is the hardware doesn't keep up.

It is important to ensure the network keeps up with the transaction volume assuming Bitcoin continues to go mainstream.

If the doubling ins't needed or isn't possible then I am confident it can be delayed.

We can't be hard forking every other month man..
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July 08, 2015, 01:50:34 PM
 #143

This isn't a stress test anymore boys it's an attack to convice us to fork.

Gavins plan is just way to aggressive.

I would agree to a doubling every 4 years to ensure the hardware advances well faster than the chain.



The plan can be changed is the hardware doesn't keep up.

It is important to ensure the network keeps up with the transaction volume assuming Bitcoin continues to go mainstream.

If the doubling ins't needed or isn't possible then I am confident it can be delayed.

We can't be hard forking every other month man..

wasn't there a dust threshold that prevented tx spam like this? or did they patch it out?

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July 08, 2015, 02:05:49 PM
 #144

This isn't a stress test anymore boys it's an attack to convice us to fork.

Gavins plan is just way to aggressive.

I would agree to a doubling every 4 years to ensure the hardware advances well faster than the chain.

are you sure about this point? i was thinking that this stress was done to know what the initial MB that should have been used
becuase perhaps 4mb would have been too much to start with, if the network can actually sustain more than 1MB with a little impact on the queue
later we can do 2mb every two year or any other smaller combination


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achow101
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July 08, 2015, 02:20:03 PM
 #145

wasn't there a dust threshold that prevented tx spam like this? or did they patch it out?
It is still there. If you look in the debug.log, you will see a lot of lines that look like this
Code:
ERROR: AcceptToMemoryPool : nonstandard transaction: dust
This means that dust transactions are being dropped by standard clients. However, some places do not do this, such as tradeblock. They will say that the mempool is much larger than what nodes and miners see because they _do_not_ drop dust transactions.

Amitabh S
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July 08, 2015, 02:38:09 PM
 #146

There are definitely lots of spam going on, these 0.00001 bitcoin transactions without fee happens quite often, don't know how did they managed to get into the blockchain. I remember that previous spam filter does not allow any transaction less then 5000 satoshi or something to be broadcasted



Does this mean they got into the blockchain or just into the mempool? If the latter then its expected. The spammer wants to flood the mempool so legit tx take long time. The only way to counter the attack is to use a higher fee. Paying 3-4 times is not that bad if it gets you in an hour.

If you have already sent it trying a double spend with a higher fee will usually do the trick.

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Argwai96
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July 08, 2015, 04:20:28 PM
 #147

is the stress testing still going on ? https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions yesterday we had 185k it looks like it has slowed down a bit comparing the day before at 212k peak.
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July 08, 2015, 04:22:57 PM
 #148

is the stress testing still going on ? https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions yesterday we had 185k it looks like it has slowed down a bit comparing the day before at 212k peak.

it's still going. check the mempool stats it's gone 10mb up in the last hours https://tradeblock.com/blockchain

spazzdla
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July 08, 2015, 05:18:26 PM
 #149

It's an attack at this point guys... We need to do something.. increasing the block size is not the right path.  Dynamic fees IMO are the way.
achow101
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July 08, 2015, 05:21:36 PM
 #150

What are the addresses that are doing the spamming? If we just blacklist them we can remove them from the mempool and their transactions will be ignored by everyone.

shorena
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July 08, 2015, 05:24:36 PM
 #151

It's an attack at this point guys... We need to do something.. increasing the block size is not the right path.  Dynamic fees IMO are the way.

We already have that. Bitcoin core does a pretty good job to determine the fee for a given block the TX should be in.

Im not really here, its just your imagination.
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July 08, 2015, 05:28:26 PM
 #152

It's an attack at this point guys... We need to do something.. increasing the block size is not the right path.  Dynamic fees IMO are the way.

We already have that. Bitcoin core does a pretty good job to determine the fee for a given block the TX should be in.

but it doesn't force them. I think that was his proposal. but I'm not sure if that's the final solution

shorena
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July 08, 2015, 05:35:06 PM
 #153

It's an attack at this point guys... We need to do something.. increasing the block size is not the right path.  Dynamic fees IMO are the way.

We already have that. Bitcoin core does a pretty good job to determine the fee for a given block the TX should be in.

but it doesn't force them. I think that was his proposal. but I'm not sure if that's the final solution

Id rather not have a client thats forcing me to pay a high fee just because someone is currently burning money on the network. Im perfectly fine to pay the same fee as always and wait a day. If I want something to go fast I can always increase the fee, but its still a decision I want to make myself.

Im not really here, its just your imagination.
dothebeats
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July 08, 2015, 05:38:08 PM
 #154

It's an attack at this point guys... We need to do something.. increasing the block size is not the right path.  Dynamic fees IMO are the way.

We already have that. Bitcoin core does a pretty good job to determine the fee for a given block the TX should be in.

but it doesn't force them. I think that was his proposal. but I'm not sure if that's the final solution

Id rather not have a client thats forcing me to pay a high fee just because someone is currently burning money on the network. Im perfectly fine to pay the same fee as always and wait a day. If I want something to go fast I can always increase the fee, but its still a decision I want to make myself.

Same here. My transactions went through within an hour with the minimum transaction fees I can put to ensure a faster confirmation. If the transaction is not that urgent, I can probably lower the fee for me to save some satoshis.

In regards with the stress testing, it seems like the testers are pushing the network to its limit. They better come up with a solution with this problem they are testing right now, or they should help the devs to create a solution in case transactions in the future see a rapid growth and spike again.
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July 08, 2015, 06:07:09 PM
 #155

They better come up with a solution with this problem they are testing right now

The solution is to stop flooding the network with dust transactions.  I'm not sure what point "they" are trying to make with all of this, but it's not identifying any problem we didn't already know exists, and it's not working toward any solution.
dothebeats
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July 08, 2015, 06:12:43 PM
 #156

They better come up with a solution with this problem they are testing right now

The solution is to stop flooding the network with dust transactions.  I'm not sure what point "they" are trying to make with all of this, but it's not identifying any problem we didn't already know exists, and it's not working toward any solution.

They already identified a problem: if an attack is directed towards the network in the form of tx with no fees, it will certainly clog the network. Also, if we should see a significant increase in transactions in the coming years because of widespread use of bitcoin, then we might know how to deal with it too. But I agree, the testing should stop now. The result is pretty obvious: it clogged the network.
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July 08, 2015, 07:12:11 PM
 #157

I must admit that I have underestimated Bitcoin's resilience. It's doing well, and what's more important - it's functioning as intended. If legitimate users want their transactions confirmed fast, they just raise the fees - Bitcoin Core does a great job suggesting correct amounts.

There might be some shortcomings regarding mempool management, but the network as a whole is robust.

At 20mb blocks the outcome would be far worse - most nodes would struggle to verify them fast enough. Add to that the ballooning UTXO set.

It should be noted that currently there's enough space in blocks for legitimate transactions, and they mostly compete with spam, not with each other. What if such an avalanche of txs happens naturally, by increased usage, not by an attack? I'm not sure what would happen, and this 'stress test' has failed to show that either.
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July 08, 2015, 07:37:34 PM
 #158

Even the attack have some political implication, I don't think it will convince anybody to fork

Probably not. Bitcoiners are extremely resilient, they don't change their opinions just because of mere facts.  Grin

Quote
a fork will just make the situation worse.

"Fork" does not mean to increase the blocksize, although changing it would require a fork.  (Luke Dashjr wants a fork to reduce the max block size to 100 kB.)

Quote
[ With larger blocks ] Spammers can send millions of 0.0001 bitcoins without any fee to flood the mempool regardless of the blocksize. With a 20MB block, they will quickly raise the average block size to 20MB and heavily slowdown the network. On the contrary, it is safer to stay at current 1MB blocksize, so that spam can be analyzed thoroughly and dealt with

The larger the block size limit, the more expensive a spam attack would be.  To be effective, a spam attack must generate more transactions per second than the network can confirm (in addition to its normal traffic).  With 1 MB blocks, that would be more than 1.8 transactions per second.  With 8 MB blocks, it would be ~21 tx/s,  With 20 MB blocks, it would be ~53 tx/s.  Only the excess spam above those numbers would accumulate in the queues, creating and feeding the backlog.

More transactions make the attack more expensive.  The average transaction fee now is ~0.01 USD/tx, it seems.  Assuming an attack with twice the traffic numbers above,  the cost would be ~80 USD/h with 1 MB blocks,  ~850 USD/h with 8 MB blocks, and ~2100 USD/h with 20 MB blocks.

Also, the larger the block size limit, the faster a backlog will clear out.  The goal of the current spam test was to reach 250 MB of unconfirmed transactions (but they got about 70 MB maximum, so far).  The backlog will clear at the rate equal to the capacity of the network, minus the current traffic (which is about 30% of the capacity).  So, with 1 MB blocks, minus 300 kB per block,  it would take ~360 blocks (~2.5 days) to clear 250 MB of backlog.  With 8MB blocks, it would take ~33 blocks (~5.5 hours).  With 20 MB blocks, it would take ~13 blocks (~2 hours).

Increasing the block size limit to 8 MB or even 20 MB will not make the risk of a spam attack become negligible, because a determined attacker with deep pockets can afford much more than 2100 USD/hour.  But it would make the attack 10 times more expensive, and clear any backlog almost 10 times faster.

But the main reason to increase the limit is not to ward of spam attacks (which, as said above, are impossible to avoid).  It is only to prevent the network from becoming saturated due to a possible increase in normal traffic.  If the average normal daily traffic gets to about 300'000 tx/day (only 3 times the current value), there will be recurrent "traffic jams" that take several hours to clear.   The delays due to traffic jams will drive more users away from bitcoin, until the traffic stops growing.  Only users who really need bitcoin (like drug users and ransomware victims) will put up with the jams.  

Increasing the block size should have been a no-brainer non-event, a trivial and routine maintenance action to get one possible problem out of the way.  It is what any plumber would try to do when he notices that a rain or sewer pipe is about to become insufficient for the flow it is supposed to carry.  Unfortunately, the business plan of Blockstream requires forcing all individuals who now use bitcoin to use their "overlay network" (Sidechains, Lightning Network, whatever) instead.  To do that, they must keep the block size limited to 1 MB until the network saturates, in order to force all clients to pay much more in return for much longer confirmation times.  All in name of freedom, of course...

Academic interest in bitcoin only. Not owner, not trader, very skeptical of its longterm success.
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July 08, 2015, 08:04:09 PM
 #159

Look how many unconfirmed transactions there are, this is disgusting to be honest - https://blockchain.info/unconfirmed-transactions

How much longer is this going to continue? People could be sending large amounts of BTC & be panicking, waiting 5-6 hours, maybe more for 1 transaction.

I understand that there was a need for stress testing but it's being taken too far now imo.

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July 08, 2015, 08:15:11 PM
 #160

Quote
Increasing the block size limit to 8 MB or even 20 MB will not make the risk of a spam attack become negligible, because a determined attacker with deep pockets can afford much more than 2100 USD/hour.  But it would make the attack 10 times more expensive, and clear any backlog almost 10 times faster.
Yes. And it will also increase the load on nodes by the same factor. Even to the point where only powerful dc-hosted nodes would struggle to verify and propagate blocks in a meaningful amount of time.

It's not that I oppose increasing the block size - quite the contrary. I just think we should think thrice before we do it.
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