"Stress Tests", Spammers, Attacks: Burning My Butt. Very Bad.

[arallmuus]

Ever thought of the possiblity that both are correct? Both of the option have a valid point about this I believe. After there is no block reward , then this miners fee will be the incentive for miners to keep on mining otherwise if there is no incentives than no one will sacrifice their electricity cost just for the sake of finding block I believe

Yes, both are valid points, it is an incentive to miners but it is a side effect it is not the intention.  Original implementation was not supposed to have any fees, then fees were  lazily created to avoid spam. And that is what fees are for, to prevent spam,  if they are not serving the purpose fees should be eliminated and an actual solution should be created.

Even if it is not the original implementation of BTC , the fees will simply be a solution after the block reward run out. It may be a niche thing to consider for now since the block reward is still there however once there is no more block reward then this fees will serve its purpose. Eliminating the fees could be a solution for the current problem however it will make another problem which is why this could not be use as a solution for this problem

I think banning any low fee Tx is a reasonable countermeasure.

Banning the low fee Transaction could not be a countermeasure at all because the attacker will simply only need to increase his "attacks" fee to continue this and everyone will be forced to put in an even higher fee and that is killing micropayment. Killing micropayment is hindering BTC growth I'd say

Stress tests my ass.

Not a stress test, more like an attack to prove that we actually need a bigger block sizes

If you must move low amounts of BTC exchange to exchange just use altcoins.

I thought most people here support BTC rather than altcoin? So know people are suggesting to ignore micropayment and ask them to shift into altcoin instead? lol

20MB blocks would solve this 

Yes it is but it creates a whole lot more problem so it is not the solution

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[Xialla]

Stop the damn stress tests I say. I'd like to move money around like it used to be, with low fees and fast confirmations.

End the madness!!

better to know how the network behaves when stressed, than be surprised later, once some rich stupids will start with real stress never ending testing scenarios. what we have see now is really "nothing", compare to fact, how much it cost and what is overall impact to transactions..

just think about it.

[sturle]

This last one is new to me.  Is the idea that you dno't even relay transactions that are othewise valid unless they include a fee?  I didn't realize that anyone had already implemented such a policy.

Yes, not relaying transactions if the fee per kB is too low has been the default policy for years.  Unless the priority is high enough.

[sturle]

Stop the damn stress tests I say. I'd like to move money around like it used to be, with low fees and fast confirmations.

End the madness!!

better to know how the network behaves when stressed, than be surprised later, once some rich stupids will start with real stress never ending testing scenarios. what we have see now is really "nothing", compare to fact, how much it cost and what is overall impact to transactions..
just think about it.

Of course, and so far nothing new has been discovered.  If this was done by a responsible person instead of a malicious attacker, it would have been tested on the testnet.  This is the reason why we have a testnet.

[Argwai96]

any one knows when is the next stress test going to be ? i would like to be ready before sending out any transactions with manual fees last time i was stuck for like 6 hours with no confirmations.

[Xialla]

Stop the damn stress tests I say. I'd like to move money around like it used to be, with low fees and fast confirmations.

End the madness!!

better to know how the network behaves when stressed, than be surprised later, once some rich stupids will start with real stress never ending testing scenarios. what we have see now is really "nothing", compare to fact, how much it cost and what is overall impact to transactions..
just think about it.

Of course, and so far nothing new has been discovered.  If this was done by a responsible person instead of a malicious attacker, it would have been tested on the testnet.  This is the reason why we have a testnet.

sure, but still...actually doesn't matter who is behind. he must pay fees and he is stressing bitcoin network basically for free. even, it is not comfortable, we all can see now, what you can do with literally few bitcoin and how many users and services you may affect only if you want.

I hope that core developers closely watching what is happening and it will simply help them to find out some feasible solution.

btw, sorry for conspiracy theory, but if if these stress tests are done by miners in order to increase their income, because this is pushing people to pay higher fees for comfortable waiting time?)

[arallmuus]

Of course, and so far nothing new has been discovered.  If this was done by a responsible person instead of a malicious attacker, it would have been tested on the testnet.  This is the reason why we have a testnet.

A stress test on a live network is a good way of making people realize about what will "happen" in the future . By simply doing this in live network, he could easily prove that a bigger block sizes is needed because most people will affected by this rather than doing it in a testnet and later presented the effect of it in form of data and charts.

However this is not a test at all because it is not announced before hand and no one knows who did this at all. It is simply an attack to the network. Completely wild west way of showing things to people, you killed a person, throw their dead body in the middle of the city and put up an unintentional message that everyone will suffer if you dont follow up the rules

[SISAR]

If you must move low amounts of BTC exchange to exchange just use altcoins.

I thought most people here support BTC rather than altcoin? So know people are suggesting to ignore micropayment and ask them to shift into altcoin instead? lol

That is beside my point but in any case if you support just Bitcoin you are not really smart, like people supporting just gold or silver or Facebook stock or whatever other single-point-of-failure stuff.

[sturle]

20MB blocks would solve this 

Probably not, and certainly not without generating other problems.  We only know for sure that larger blocks will have room for more malicious spam and slow everything else down.

[favdesu]

20MB blocks would solve this 

Probably not, and certainly not without generating other problems.  We only know for sure that larger blocks will have room for more malicious spam and slow everything else down.

why not implement fee rules? like if a tx is under a certain threshhold it MUST offer a fee

[sturle]

Of course, and so far nothing new has been discovered.  If this was done by a responsible person instead of a malicious attacker, it would have been tested on the testnet.  This is the reason why we have a testnet.

A stress test on a live network is a good way of making people realize about what will "happen" in the future. By simply doing this in live network, he could easily prove that a bigger block sizes is needed because most people will affected by this rather than doing it in a testnet and later presented the effect of it in form of data and charts.

Bigger block sizes?  So far this has only demonstrated the fact that the blocks are too big already.  Perhaps this will be an adequate size in the future, but right now 1 MB blocks are too large.  The prospect of even larger blocks with room for even more malicious spam is not a good one.

However this is not a test at all because it is not announced before hand and no one knows who did this at all. It is simply an attack to the network. Completely wild west way of showing things to people, you killed a person, throw their dead body in the middle of the city and put up an unintentional message that everyone will suffer if you dont follow up the rules

Announcing a malicious spam attack does not make it a "test".  It is still a malicious spam attack.  Move over to the testnet if you want to test something, e.g. how to stop transaction spam.

[sturle]

why not implement fee rules? like if a tx is under a certain threshhold it MUST offer a fee

This is already a soft rule.  The priority is calculated from the sum of (input size multiplied by age) and divided by transaction size.  Spam usually use young inputs as well, making the priority very low.  If the priority of a transaction is too low, Bitcoin Core won't relay it at all if it doesn't offer a fee.  Certainly not mine it.

[tuvok007]

any one knows when is the next stress test going to be ? i would like to be ready before sending out any transactions with manual fees last time i was stuck for like 6 hours with no confirmations.

Only 6 hours? Hahaha dude, i am waiting for more than 48 hours now and still not even one confirmation, WTF 

[favdesu]

why not implement fee rules? like if a tx is under a certain threshhold it MUST offer a fee

This is already a soft rule.  The priority is calculated from the sum of (input size multiplied by age) and divided by transaction size.  Spam usually use young inputs as well, making the priority very low.  If the priority of a transaction is too low, Bitcoin Core won't relay it at all if it doesn't offer a fee.  Certainly not mine it.

I see. but it won't stop the mempool from being filled. shouldn't this affect nodes at some point? what's the critical mass to shut a node down in terms of mempool size?

[arallmuus]

I thought most people here support BTC rather than altcoin? So now people are suggesting to ignore micropayment and ask them to shift into altcoin instead? lol

That is beside my point but in any case if you support just Bitcoin you are not really smart, like people supporting just gold or silver or Facebook stock or whatever other single-point-of-failure stuff.

If BTC were to fall to dirt cheap some day, it means people are losing faith with cryptocurrency and there is no denying that the other cryptocurrency will follow the same path as well. The altcoins are merely nothing without BTC anyway ( however there is no denying as well there are some good project of altcoins )

A stress test on a live network is a good way of making people realize about what will "happen" in the future. By simply doing this in live network, he could easily prove that a bigger block sizes is needed because most people will affected by this rather than doing it in a testnet and later presented the effect of it in form of data and charts.

Bigger block sizes?  So far this has only demonstrated the fact that the blocks are too big already.  Perhaps this will be an adequate size in the future, but right now 1 MB blocks are too large.  The prospect of even larger blocks with room for even more malicious spam is not a good one.

I merely look at this "stress test" from two sides point of view. First, this is an "attack" to the live network and there is no denying to that and second, this "stress test" is actually another way to show people about the effect of the current blocksize rather than showing them data and charts after you do your testing on testnet. People will "learn" much easier from "experiences" .

As for the larger blocks issue, I would say that the potential for larger spam will always be there however limiting the blocksize to the current one or even make it smaller is not the solution for it as well. This may be an "attack" for now however I am seeing this from the brighter side that is how the network will be in the upcoming years after there are alot more people that jump into BTC

This attacker had shown their intention I guess, they want "bigger block size" . Could be from Gavin and his minnions however atleast thanks to this I have a projection of what the future network will be (atleast a glimpse of it )

[OROBTC]

...

OK, do recall that my proposed ideas to not recognize transactions of under BTC0.001 and/or fees under BTC0.0002 were just "talking points" by a non-expert.  I chose those amounts as "reasonable looking".

Nonetheless, I saw in another thread this idea:

You can have lots of micropayments and very low / no fees

OR

You can have a Bitcoin system that is secure and works well for important payments.

*   *   *

Can we only pick one?  

Serious question.  

Great dialogue, these questions need to be answered IMO.

*   *   *

Also, IMO, this is a MALICIOUS ATTACK.  Anyone or group doing this is inconveniencing others, and in some cases causing real problems, so I do not accept this as a "test".  Should it be miners (or whoever) doing this, I imagine we would find out in due course.

[Xialla]

any one knows when is the next stress test going to be ? i would like to be ready before sending out any transactions with manual fees last time i was stuck for like 6 hours with no confirmations.

Only 6 hours? Hahaha dude, i am waiting for more than 48 hours now and still not even one confirmation, WTF 

uhh, did you pay some TX fee? can you please post here TX of transaction? this seems very unlikely to me tbh. during last test, I tried by myself to sent 0.1BTC with 0 tx fee and it was done in 15 hours..

[tuvok007]

any one knows when is the next stress test going to be ? i would like to be ready before sending out any transactions with manual fees last time i was stuck for like 6 hours with no confirmations.

Only 6 hours? Hahaha dude, i am waiting for more than 48 hours now and still not even one confirmation, WTF  

uhh, did you pay some TX fee? can you please post here TX of transaction? this seems very unlikely to me tbh. during last test, I tried by myself to sent 0.1BTC with 0 tx fee and it was done in 15 hours..

https://blockchain.info/address/1BnvHarta94JvXrY7oT272qTBEvgMdRk2S    Here it is, 49 hours and counting,the fee was 1114 satoshis. I dont know should i laugh or cry hahaha

[favdesu]

any one knows when is the next stress test going to be ? i would like to be ready before sending out any transactions with manual fees last time i was stuck for like 6 hours with no confirmations.

Only 6 hours? Hahaha dude, i am waiting for more than 48 hours now and still not even one confirmation, WTF  

uhh, did you pay some TX fee? can you please post here TX of transaction? this seems very unlikely to me tbh. during last test, I tried by myself to sent 0.1BTC with 0 tx fee and it was done in 15 hours..

https://blockchain.info/address/1BnvHarta94JvXrY7oT272qTBEvgMdRk2S    Here it is, 49 hours and counting,the fee was 1114 satoshis. I dont know should i laugh or cry hahaha

your tx fee is very very low... this could take some time. even without an attack

[OROBTC]

...

Following up on Xialla's experience, I sent a small amount as a test (roughly 0.005 BTC) with a fairly large fee (BTC 0.0006) to see how long it would take at about 10:30 PM US ET on July 6.

Confirmed by the next block.  And second confirmation by the next one after that.

For me, getting a "real payment" (say, over $1.00) confirmed, even at a higher amount of fee (and I would think that a BTC 0.0002 would be reasonable), is much important than being able to send out $0.20 for free......


But, hey, that's just me.



(Edited for correct amount sent and date, doh!)