Bitcoin Forum
October 23, 2017, 07:07:28 PM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.15.0.1  [Torrent]. (New!)
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: « 1 [2]  All
  Print  
Author Topic: provably fair is new industry standard?  (Read 2423 times)
anderson00673
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 308



View Profile
July 12, 2015, 04:29:06 PM
 #21

These days, most bitcoin & altcoin casinos already using provably fair.
But, casinos still have many tricks to get money from their player such as house edge or games which could make gambler addicted.

House edge isn't a trick, it is how every casino out there is in business, including non-online casinos.  But I agree, I think that at the end of the day you have to find a reputable casino because even the PF system has been gamed.
1508785648
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1508785648

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1508785648
Reply with quote  #2

1508785648
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1508785648
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1508785648

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1508785648
Reply with quote  #2

1508785648
Report to moderator
Bardman
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 448



View Profile
July 12, 2015, 04:32:16 PM
 #22

Note how some btc casinos out there are not provably fair although they claim to be.
Some provably fair systems can be bypassed by the casino to alter the bets.
It's impossible to tell if they do it.
Its not impossible to tell if they altered the bets. For example in a game of dice if you have the seed and you change your seed manually, then as long as nonces are fine , there is almost no way for the casino to cheat you .

"Theres almost no way" means that there is a way, take a look at 999dice, they were exposed as having a provably fair system that might have not been provably fair but there was no way to prove if they were cheating, however its not that hard to prove or to verify if a casino does indeed use a working provably fair.

In the bitcoin industry its definitely standard to have provably fair system, no one would play at your casino if you dont have one.


▄██████████████████
███████████████████
███████████████████
█████████████████
███████████████
████████████████
████████████████
█████████████████
███████████████████
████████████████████
█████████████████████
▀████████████████████
Bazista®
██ █  ██ ██
██   ██  ██
██  ██   ██
██ ██  █ ██
██ █  ██ ██
██   ██  ██
██  ██   ██
██ ██  █ ██
██ █  ██ ██
██   ██  ██
██  ██   ██
██ ██  █ ██

██ █  ██ ██
██   ██  ██
██  ██   ██
██ ██  █ ██
██ █  ██ ██
██   ██  ██
██  ██   ██
██ ██  █ ██
██ █  ██ ██
██   ██  ██
██  ██   ██
██ ██  █ ██
|||
Criterion
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 73


View Profile
July 12, 2015, 04:42:51 PM
 #23

Im confident provably fair will be that standard among pretty much all online casinos.

What is really going to be interesting to is to see when big casino game software sellers like softwiss come up with their own solutions and what they are gonna look like.
It might just be something wehave not yet seen before in this form.
arallmuus
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 840


Extremely busy right now, less active :)


View Profile
July 12, 2015, 04:43:04 PM
 #24

I would far sooner just bet with a site that is licensed (there are a few of them around now), and has syndicated games from Microgaming or Betsoft that have their games tested and accredited by independent labs.

As for the license case, having a license doesnt mean that the site is actually fair but rather it is about the gray area of legal and illegal cases. Most sites around here is not licensed but that doesnt mean that they are not fair , the same thing applied to the site with license.

You are missing the ability to check your bet if you truly win or lose if there is no provably fair mechanism on the site. Having a shiny badge of either Microgaming or Betsoft in a gambling site is nothing but a gimmick either because no one truly knows whats behind the scene either (no offence but this is reality). Standard would be the ability to verify your own lose . However most people dont know how to do it because it is quite "complicated" for them or they are too lazy to just copy-paste some seedhash, therefore people should just educate themselves about these things and accept these new industry standard

I think that at the end of the day you have to find a reputable casino because even the PF system has been gamed.

Or people can just simply educate themselves and check the provably fair thing by themselves but yeah this is too much hassle for some people , no doubt about it

EDGELESS.IO New Era Of Casino (0% Edge And Full Transparency)
JOIN THE ICO | JOIN THE DISCUSSION
Bardman
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 448



View Profile
July 12, 2015, 05:22:37 PM
 #25

Im confident provably fair will be that standard among pretty much all online casinos.

What is really going to be interesting to is to see when big casino game software sellers like softwiss come up with their own solutions and what they are gonna look like.
It might just be something wehave not yet seen before in this form.

Im not so sure, casinos that do not use bitcoins generally dont have any way to verifiy if they are fair or not, i dont know if you know any casino that has provably fair and uses normal currencies, i dont, im not saying it does not exist but its definitely not common and people dont know about it and if people dont know about it the casino owners wont have to implement it any time soon.


▄██████████████████
███████████████████
███████████████████
█████████████████
███████████████
████████████████
████████████████
█████████████████
███████████████████
████████████████████
█████████████████████
▀████████████████████
Bazista®
██ █  ██ ██
██   ██  ██
██  ██   ██
██ ██  █ ██
██ █  ██ ██
██   ██  ██
██  ██   ██
██ ██  █ ██
██ █  ██ ██
██   ██  ██
██  ██   ██
██ ██  █ ██

██ █  ██ ██
██   ██  ██
██  ██   ██
██ ██  █ ██
██ █  ██ ██
██   ██  ██
██  ██   ██
██ ██  █ ██
██ █  ██ ██
██   ██  ██
██  ██   ██
██ ██  █ ██
|||
Xialla
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1036


/dev/null


View Profile
July 12, 2015, 07:51:43 PM
 #26

But, casinos still have many tricks to get money from their player such as house edge or games which could make gambler addicted.

but this is not trick.)

house edge is known even before you start playing and gaming addiction (gambling) is generally known term. until you are playing for fun (and yes, there are guys really enjoying the game with dust amounts), it is more or less OK, problem is loosing dozens of BTC daily, getting loans from real life and financially ruining family..

provably fair is imho one of core features, why are crypto currency casinos and game so attractive and popular..so yeah, it is pretty much standard these days.
apriyani420
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 406



View Profile
July 12, 2015, 07:55:56 PM
 #27

These days, most bitcoin & altcoin casinos already using provably fair.
But, casinos still have many tricks to get money from their player such as house edge or games which could make gambler addicted.
i am pretty sure and i believe that they can even scam people with "provably fair" system, as people seem to loose really huge amounts of money

jbrnt
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 672



View Profile
July 12, 2015, 08:04:32 PM
 #28

Provably fair means site cannot change the outcome to make us loose. That is almost a standard now. While I am playing dice, I think about something else. How about even distribution?

If a site can't change an outcome, doesn't make it fair. A dice site for example, what kind of mathematics can prove that the outcome is evenly distributed between 0 and 100?
Buziss
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 896


View Profile
July 12, 2015, 08:06:39 PM
 #29

i am pretty sure and i believe that they can even scam people with "provably fair" system, as people seem to loose really huge amounts of money

You should always expect to lose in real provably fair sites in the long term, not because of a faulty "provably fair system", but because of the positive house edge.

arallmuus
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 840


Extremely busy right now, less active :)


View Profile
July 12, 2015, 08:07:45 PM
 #30

i am pretty sure and i believe that they can even scam people with "provably fair" system,  as people seem to loose really huge amounts of money

Provably fair system doesnt prevent the operator / site to not cheat on your rolls but it is making it harder for them to cheat because player can verify their own rolls if they feel there is something wrong going on . These two words are different and some people misunderstood it completely
As for the example, 999dice is a scam site that implement a provably fair mechanism as well but as you can see there are alot people that still playing there despite the site is rigged.

References on how 999dice cheat with their "provably fair mechanism" : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=948965.0

Most people just seem to not understand what it means by "provably fair" anyway .The fact is that most people even think that with a provably fair mechanism on the site, they wont be losing with an insane loss streak which is not true (references below).

btw i dont trust now at moneypot provably fair system anymore after getting 24 losing streak at plinkopot.

This is just one of the many example that people mostly think they cant lose with an insane loss streak if there is provably fair



Provably fair means site cannot change the outcome to make us loose.

This only applied if you take a note of the seed before you roll, otherwise it will be easy to tamper your bet result just like 999dice did

EDGELESS.IO New Era Of Casino (0% Edge And Full Transparency)
JOIN THE ICO | JOIN THE DISCUSSION
WalkerIVIV
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 361



View Profile
July 12, 2015, 09:10:10 PM
 #31

It's new excelent ilusion of this times .. you can check that all is provably fair but in fact you get scammed different way ( bonus round lag and you lost them, live operator give you 5% less than you should get or nothing - you never get it back, rotation problems etc.... casino always win do not forget this

AlwaysSunny
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 28


View Profile
July 12, 2015, 11:37:18 PM
 #32

I would far sooner just bet with a site that is licensed (there are a few of them around now), and has syndicated games from Microgaming or Betsoft that have their games tested and accredited by independent labs.

As for the license case, having a license doesnt mean that the site is actually fair but rather it is about the gray area of legal and illegal cases. Most sites around here is not licensed but that doesnt mean that they are not fair , the same thing applied to the site with license.

You are missing the ability to check your bet if you truly win or lose if there is no provably fair mechanism on the site. Having a shiny badge of either Microgaming or Betsoft in a gambling site is nothing but a gimmick either because no one truly knows whats behind the scene either (no offence but this is reality). Standard would be the ability to verify your own lose . However most people dont know how to do it because it is quite "complicated" for them or they are too lazy to just copy-paste some seedhash, therefore people should just educate themselves about these things and accept these new industry standard

I think that at the end of the day you have to find a reputable casino because even the PF system has been gamed.

Or people can just simply educate themselves and check the provably fair thing by themselves but yeah this is too much hassle for some people , no doubt about it

But that's the thing, even if they know how to do it people still aren't going to go and check the result of every one of their hands - it's time consuming, and it's a pain in the ass.

As far as licenses, I'm not sure you actually understand what it takes to get a casino license - it's not just a pay-your-money-get-your-license type of deal, there are actually standards that you have to meet in terms of the way you operate your site (relating to things like fair gaming, financial practices, problem gamblers, etc.). The games that licensed casinos offer have to go through testing and get verified by independent auditors before they will get approved. Basically what I'm saying is that yes, people do know what's going on behind the scenes because its their job to know and they're professionals. Casinos have enough of an edge as it is, why would a multi-billion dollar company like Playtech or Microgaming risk their reputation but having crooked games?

That said, you're right, not that many sites are licensed... so why trust these ones? I'm pretty sure the likes of bitcasino.io doesn't restrict any countries, and they're games are a whole lot better (Playboy live dealers!!!) than the rudimentary provably games out there.
arallmuus
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 840


Extremely busy right now, less active :)


View Profile
July 13, 2015, 11:52:20 AM
 #33

even if they know how to do it people still aren't going to go and check the result of every one of their hands - it's time consuming, and it's a pain in the ass.

It is not actually time consuming because people will most likely not check on their dust bet or the bet that they won. A simple copy-paste will actually do the job , nevertheless, some site even has their own verifier that will let verify your bet with a single click . Another thing will be Psychology issue though, no one actually care if it is fair or not when they win and only care to check about the fairness of the game whenever they lost

Things may be much more complicated for now as this standard of provably fair is still new and of course in the future it can evolve and perhaps there will be a system to automatically verify your bet ( actually there is already a site for this, called moneypot but thats only limited to the site that uses its API )

As far as licenses
-snip-.

I do know about license and I do know that a licensed site will have a monthly or annualy inspection to ensure that they keep the fairness of the game but as far as I know that doesnt mean that a licensed site cant cheat during the play.
I am more of a fan to verify my own bet and without the ability to verify your own bet, thats not what a true fairness is and basically being told that the game is fair but have zero ability verify it by yourself is more like a fairytale for me.

That said, you're right, not that many sites are licensed... so why trust these ones?

Some people prefer the ability to verify your own bets. The thing with license is pretty much gray area anyway. Site without license is fine as long as they offer you the ability to verify your own bet and being honest on the play

EDGELESS.IO New Era Of Casino (0% Edge And Full Transparency)
JOIN THE ICO | JOIN THE DISCUSSION
AlwaysSunny
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 28


View Profile
July 13, 2015, 12:32:30 PM
 #34

even if they know how to do it people still aren't going to go and check the result of every one of their hands - it's time consuming, and it's a pain in the ass.

It is not actually time consuming because people will most likely not check on their dust bet or the bet that they won. A simple copy-paste will actually do the job , nevertheless, some site even has their own verifier that will let verify your bet with a single click . Another thing will be Psychology issue though, no one actually care if it is fair or not when they win and only care to check about the fairness of the game whenever they lost

Things may be much more complicated for now as this standard of provably fair is still new and of course in the future it can evolve and perhaps there will be a system to automatically verify your bet ( actually there is already a site for this, called moneypot but thats only limited to the site that uses its API )

As far as licenses
-snip-.

I do know about license and I do know that a licensed site will have a monthly or annualy inspection to ensure that they keep the fairness of the game but as far as I know that doesnt mean that a licensed site cant cheat during the play.
I am more of a fan to verify my own bet and without the ability to verify your own bet, thats not what a true fairness is and basically being told that the game is fair but have zero ability verify it by yourself is more like a fairytale for me.

That said, you're right, not that many sites are licensed... so why trust these ones?

Some people prefer the ability to verify your own bets. The thing with license is pretty much gray area anyway. Site without license is fine as long as they offer you the ability to verify your own bet and being honest on the play


Which thread are you replying to? Because this one was asking if provably fair is the new industry standard... which it's clearly not, because as you said at the moment it's new and complicated. At this stage, I'm sure the vast majority of players (at casinos at least - dice sites might be different) don't care or don't understand about provably fair. In general I'm skeptical of any claim that a casino is unfair, just as I'm completely dismissive of people claiming that Pokerstars is rigged - casinos have a mathematical advantage already in their favour, they don't need to cheat players.
arallmuus
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 840


Extremely busy right now, less active :)


View Profile
July 13, 2015, 01:21:30 PM
 #35

which it's clearly not, because as you said at the moment it's new and complicated.

I should have made it clearer, new and complicated for the majority of people but the least they can do is get themselves educated with this new industry standard.

At this stage, I'm sure the vast majority of players (at casinos at least - dice sites might be different) don't care or don't understand about provably fair.

That is why, people should just get themselves educated with this new standard or left behind. As I have stated, people only "care" about it whenever they lost but whenever they win then most will probably let it slip through.

casinos have a mathematical advantage already in their favour, they don't need to cheat players.

House edge is what makes the house will always be profitable in the long run however this is not a guarantee that the house wont be cheating. A gambling site doesnt have to cheat to win because there is a house edge but history has proven that there has been some sites that have been caught cheating their players
999dice is cheating by tampering your roll result ( references below on how they do it and they are probably still doing it right now ) and also dicebitco.in was caught skipping their nonces but they claimed that it was a mistake of their employee but probably they will still continue to do so if they werent caught red handed

999dice : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=948965.0

dicebitcoin : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=716312.msg8717762#msg8717762

EDGELESS.IO New Era Of Casino (0% Edge And Full Transparency)
JOIN THE ICO | JOIN THE DISCUSSION
Somekindabitcoin
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 518



View Profile
July 19, 2015, 07:56:22 PM
 #36

Every casino should use provably fair, or not? Are you playing a casino without it? Then you should move and try another, there are better casinos Smiley
Bardman
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 448



View Profile
July 20, 2015, 12:36:53 PM
 #37

which it's clearly not, because as you said at the moment it's new and complicated.

I should have made it clearer, new and complicated for the majority of people but the least they can do is get themselves educated with this new industry standard.

At this stage, I'm sure the vast majority of players (at casinos at least - dice sites might be different) don't care or don't understand about provably fair.

That is why, people should just get themselves educated with this new standard or left behind. As I have stated, people only "care" about it whenever they lost but whenever they win then most will probably let it slip through.

casinos have a mathematical advantage already in their favour, they don't need to cheat players.

House edge is what makes the house will always be profitable in the long run however this is not a guarantee that the house wont be cheating. A gambling site doesnt have to cheat to win because there is a house edge but history has proven that there has been some sites that have been caught cheating their players
999dice is cheating by tampering your roll result ( references below on how they do it and they are probably still doing it right now ) and also dicebitco.in was caught skipping their nonces but they claimed that it was a mistake of their employee but probably they will still continue to do so if they werent caught red handed

999dice : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=948965.0

dicebitcoin : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=716312.msg8717762#msg8717762

Yeah, the problem is that most gamblers are just greedy people or addicted people and generally do not care, really about anything, i mean people still use 999dice and other shady dice sites instead of using the legit ones, why? As i said because the majority of gamblers dont care, they dont know about probability, they dont care.


▄██████████████████
███████████████████
███████████████████
█████████████████
███████████████
████████████████
████████████████
█████████████████
███████████████████
████████████████████
█████████████████████
▀████████████████████
Bazista®
██ █  ██ ██
██   ██  ██
██  ██   ██
██ ██  █ ██
██ █  ██ ██
██   ██  ██
██  ██   ██
██ ██  █ ██
██ █  ██ ██
██   ██  ██
██  ██   ██
██ ██  █ ██

██ █  ██ ██
██   ██  ██
██  ██   ██
██ ██  █ ██
██ █  ██ ██
██   ██  ██
██  ██   ██
██ ██  █ ██
██ █  ██ ██
██   ██  ██
██  ██   ██
██ ██  █ ██
|||
FruitsBasket
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 910



View Profile WWW
July 20, 2015, 12:40:47 PM
 #38

which it's clearly not, because as you said at the moment it's new and complicated.

I should have made it clearer, new and complicated for the majority of people but the least they can do is get themselves educated with this new industry standard.

At this stage, I'm sure the vast majority of players (at casinos at least - dice sites might be different) don't care or don't understand about provably fair.

That is why, people should just get themselves educated with this new standard or left behind. As I have stated, people only "care" about it whenever they lost but whenever they win then most will probably let it slip through.

casinos have a mathematical advantage already in their favour, they don't need to cheat players.

House edge is what makes the house will always be profitable in the long run however this is not a guarantee that the house wont be cheating. A gambling site doesnt have to cheat to win because there is a house edge but history has proven that there has been some sites that have been caught cheating their players
999dice is cheating by tampering your roll result ( references below on how they do it and they are probably still doing it right now ) and also dicebitco.in was caught skipping their nonces but they claimed that it was a mistake of their employee but probably they will still continue to do so if they werent caught red handed

999dice : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=948965.0

dicebitcoin : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=716312.msg8717762#msg8717762

Yeah, the problem is that most gamblers are just greedy people or addicted people and generally do not care, really about anything, i mean people still use 999dice and other shady dice sites instead of using the legit ones, why? As i said because the majority of gamblers dont care, they dont know about probability, they dont care.

did you ever even think that most gamblers know how to read a computer language?

IMO only a few group of people in here can understand the provably fair system of each dice sites Shocked

,               ▄██▄
              ▄█  ▀█
             ▄█▀  ▄█▀
            ▄█▀  ▄█▀
           ▄█▀  ▄█▀ ▄██▄
          ▄█▀  ▄█▀ ▄████▄
         ▄█▀  ▄█▀ ▄██████▄
        ▄█▀  ▄█▀ ▄████████▄
       ▄█▀  ▄█▀ ▄█████
      ▄█▀  ▄█▀ ▄████████████▄
     ▄█▀  ▄█▀ ▄███████
    ▄█▀  ▄█▀ ▄████████████████▄
   ▄██▄▄▄█▀ ▄██████████████████▄
  ▄██████▀
▄███████████████████████████████▄
███████████████████████████████████
,ALLOY,
Powered by Codemojo
Real World Rewards for Virtual Currencies
▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰       ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰       ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰
  Website        Whitepaper        ANN        Bounty 
,
 
 ▄▀










 ▀▄
.
PayPal
Backed Company


▀▄
  █
  █
  █
  █
  █
  █
  █
  █
  █
  █
▄▀
,
,,,Pre-ICO starts on October 15th,,,
▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰       ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰        ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰ ▰
Telegram  ▪  Slack  ▪  Medium  ▪  Facebook  ▪  Twitter




YouTube Campaign
Bardman
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 448



View Profile
July 20, 2015, 12:43:34 PM
 #39

which it's clearly not, because as you said at the moment it's new and complicated.

I should have made it clearer, new and complicated for the majority of people but the least they can do is get themselves educated with this new industry standard.

At this stage, I'm sure the vast majority of players (at casinos at least - dice sites might be different) don't care or don't understand about provably fair.

That is why, people should just get themselves educated with this new standard or left behind. As I have stated, people only "care" about it whenever they lost but whenever they win then most will probably let it slip through.

casinos have a mathematical advantage already in their favour, they don't need to cheat players.

House edge is what makes the house will always be profitable in the long run however this is not a guarantee that the house wont be cheating. A gambling site doesnt have to cheat to win because there is a house edge but history has proven that there has been some sites that have been caught cheating their players
999dice is cheating by tampering your roll result ( references below on how they do it and they are probably still doing it right now ) and also dicebitco.in was caught skipping their nonces but they claimed that it was a mistake of their employee but probably they will still continue to do so if they werent caught red handed

999dice : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=948965.0

dicebitcoin : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=716312.msg8717762#msg8717762

Yeah, the problem is that most gamblers are just greedy people or addicted people and generally do not care, really about anything, i mean people still use 999dice and other shady dice sites instead of using the legit ones, why? As i said because the majority of gamblers dont care, they dont know about probability, they dont care.

did you ever even think that most gamblers know how to read a computer language?

IMO only a few group of people in here can understand the provably fair system of each dice sites Shocked

Well the good and legit casinos have a tutorial on how to verify each roll and generally its not really that hard to do it, if you really want to. Some sites make it harder for us to verify the rolls, that's true but you definitely dont need a degree in computers to be able to do so.


▄██████████████████
███████████████████
███████████████████
█████████████████
███████████████
████████████████
████████████████
█████████████████
███████████████████
████████████████████
█████████████████████
▀████████████████████
Bazista®
██ █  ██ ██
██   ██  ██
██  ██   ██
██ ██  █ ██
██ █  ██ ██
██   ██  ██
██  ██   ██
██ ██  █ ██
██ █  ██ ██
██   ██  ██
██  ██   ██
██ ██  █ ██

██ █  ██ ██
██   ██  ██
██  ██   ██
██ ██  █ ██
██ █  ██ ██
██   ██  ██
██  ██   ██
██ ██  █ ██
██ █  ██ ██
██   ██  ██
██  ██   ██
██ ██  █ ██
|||
pissedoff
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 616


View Profile
July 20, 2015, 04:54:48 PM
 #40

I refuse to use anywhere which isnt profitable fair when it comes to programmed games although i do prefer to just bet on live sports because there is more excitement.
Pages: « 1 [2]  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!