Pope apologizes for the Catholic genocide of the Native Americans

[bryant.coleman]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/10/world/americas/pope-francis-bolivia-catholic-church-apology.html?_r=0

Many grave sins were committed against the native people of America in the name of God.

But the question is that whether his apology is enough to forgive these crimes or not.

When the conquistadors first arrived in the Caribbean Islands, there were 3 million natives living there. After 50 years, there were just 500 of them left.

In Mexico, the population declined from 30 million in 1519, to 1.4 million in 1595.

Peru had a population of 25 million when the conquistadors first arrived. It was reduced to 1 million.

[jaysabi]

What can you do several hundred years after the fact except recognize that an injustice was done? Given that nothing you can do can fix the situation, basically all you have is the recognition that you did wrong. It's rather remarkable when the church even makes one of these statements, so infallible are their actions often deemed to be by themselves and their apologist/followers.

[BillyBones]

Apologize is not enough, must be eye to eye, hand to hand and dead for dead punishment, we need fair justice for innocent men, women and children of Native Americans, culprits must be bring to justice and handover the strict punishment what they deserved. Thanks for bringing up these forgotten genocide crimes on poor Native Americans.

[MakingMoneyHoney]

Apologize is not enough, must be eye to eye, hand to hand and dead for dead punishment, we need fair justice for innocent men, women and children of Native Americans, culprits must be bring to justice and handover the strict punishment what they deserved. Thanks for bringing up these forgotten genocide crimes on poor Native Americans.

The culprits are dead...

[jaysabi]

Apologize is not enough, must be eye to eye, hand to hand and dead for dead punishment, we need fair justice for innocent men, women and children of Native Americans, culprits must be bring to justice and handover the strict punishment what they deserved. Thanks for bringing up these forgotten genocide crimes on poor Native Americans.

We're hundreds of years removed from the incidents. We have long passed the time when anyone alive could be remotely affected by the actions in question. You cannot make new victims out of actions that are hundreds of years expired.

[Beliathon]

I'd rather see him apologize for the Christian hatred levied against LGBT folks that's still happening this very moment.

[jaysabi]

I'd rather see him apologize for the Christian hatred levied against LGBT folks that's still happening this very moment.

Give it a few hundred years. Apologizing for contemporary mistakes is a threat to the legitimacy of the church.

[MakingMoneyHoney]

I'd rather see him apologize for the Christian hatred levied against LGBT folks that's still happening this very moment.

The hatred you mention is sinful on the part of the individual Christians (unless you meant just believing homosexuality to be a sin). Each individual who has hate for anyone, has to deal with that sin themselves, personally.

[bryant.coleman]

What can you do several hundred years after the fact except recognize that an injustice was done? Given that nothing you can do can fix the situation, basically all you have is the recognition that you did wrong. It's rather remarkable when the church even makes one of these statements, so infallible are their actions often deemed to be by themselves and their apologist/followers.

But still some of the worst participants in the Native American genocide are about to be canonized by the Catholic Church. Ever heard of Junípero Serra? He almost single-handedly exterminated the Tongva tribe of California. The tribe, which numbered more than 5,000 before the Catholic priests forcibly enslaved them, went extinct in less than 50 years. Now he is about to become a Saint.

http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-serra-20150117-story.html

[jaysabi]

What can you do several hundred years after the fact except recognize that an injustice was done? Given that nothing you can do can fix the situation, basically all you have is the recognition that you did wrong. It's rather remarkable when the church even makes one of these statements, so infallible are their actions often deemed to be by themselves and their apologist/followers.

But still some of the worst participants in the Native American genocide are about to be canonized by the Catholic Church. Ever heard of Junípero Serra? He almost single-handedly exterminated the Tongva tribe of California. The tribe, which numbered more than 5,000 before the Catholic priests forcibly enslaved them, went extinct in less than 50 years. Now he is about to become a Saint.

http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-serra-20150117-story.html

I'm not a Catholic, so the decision doesn't affect me one way or the other. But as an outsider, it seems to me some consideration of these alleged crimes against humanity should weigh in to the decision on whether or not to canonize someone. So in addition to apologizing, perhaps not continuing to make follow-up mistakes could be added to the list of 'things that can currently be done to fix a hundreds-of-years-old crime.'

[BillyBones]

[bryant.coleman]

I'm not a Catholic, so the decision doesn't affect me one way or the other. But as an outsider, it seems to me some consideration of these alleged crimes against humanity should weigh in to the decision on whether or not to canonize someone. So in addition to apologizing, perhaps not continuing to make follow-up mistakes could be added to the list of 'things that can currently be done to fix a hundreds-of-years-old crime.'

This is not the first time that they are canonizing a genocide perpetrator. Ever heard of Francis Xavier (now Saint Francis Xavier)? He was the mastermind behind the Goa Inquisition, in which tens of thousands of Hindus were burnt at stake for their refusal to accept Catholicism. He was canonized by Pope Gregory XV.

[MakingMoneyHoney]

Also going to point out, that many believe the Pope to be the antichrist, so putting all your thoughts on Christians onto the Catholic church and pope is a bit foolish.

[jaysabi]

Also going to point out, that many believe the Pope to be the antichrist, so putting all your thoughts on Christians onto the Catholic church and pope is a bit foolish.

This is the first I've heard of that, but I have quite a specific idea of what type of person would believe that nonsense, and it's not a flattering profile.

[Spendulus]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/10/world/americas/pope-francis-bolivia-catholic-church-apology.html?_r=0

Many grave sins were committed against the native people of America in the name of God.

But the question is that whether his apology is enough to forgive these crimes or not.

When the conquistadors first arrived in the Caribbean Islands, there were 3 million natives living there. After 50 years, there were just 500 of them left.

In Mexico, the population declined from 30 million in 1519, to 1.4 million in 1595.

Peru had a population of 25 million when the conquistadors first arrived. It was reduced to 1 million.

I'm a bit puzzled at what you are trying to say.

Columbus wasn't one of the Conquistadors, last I heard.  Mainly you would be addressing Cortez and Pizzaro, and IIRC they both lived in the Carribean for long periods before heading to the mainland.

And many of the ethnic and tribal groups you have mentioned were absorbed into other cultures and tribal groups.  So isn't it misleading to cite the vanishing of a cultural group or tribe as the vanishing of it's members?  These days DNA can trace ancestry.

So is it a great crime to be socially disruptive?   To accidentally introduce diseases into populations when you don't even know what diseases are caused by?  To sell or give alcohol to natives not understanding they lack the gene to handle it?

If all these things are crimes, then we need to immediately stop all the disruptive technologies we are now working on - GMO crops, computers, AI, gene splicing, cloning, space exploration, anything else that might cause the Enlightened People of hundreds of years hence to think of us as criminals.

[bryant.coleman]

And many of the ethnic and tribal groups you have mentioned were absorbed into other cultures and tribal groups.  So isn't it misleading to cite the vanishing of a cultural group or tribe as the vanishing of it's members?  These days DNA can trace ancestry.

Only a small fraction of the Indians survived, for them to be assimilated to the other cultures. For example, the tribe which Columbus first encountered in the Americas (Taino nation, within the Arawak super-group) numbered 3 million in 1492 (according to some sources, they numbered up to 8 million). Within the next 5 decades, this population went down to just 500 individuals. 80% of the mortalities were caused by disease and starvation, while 20% were caused by warfare with the Spaniards. The survivors were assimilated by the Spanish and the African slaves.

So is it a great crime to be socially disruptive?   To accidentally introduce diseases into populations when you don't even know what diseases are caused by?  To sell or give alcohol to natives not understanding they lack the gene to handle it?

Yes. It is a crime. Introducing previously unknown mortal diseases to peaceful populations is nothing short of outright genocide. And the Catholic priests refused to give medicines to the dying natives, asking them to do the prayers instead.

[Beliathon]

That's a decent start,  but all us dirty Caucasian Immigrants need to at some point do the right thing and give the indigenous peoples their land back. The entire continent. I think the only ethical thing we non-naties can do in this situation,  given how horrifically we've debased their land during our 400 year hostile occupation,  is exile ourselves from this planet forever.

The whole white race is a monster,  and what we eat is land.

[Spendulus]

And many of the ethnic and tribal groups you have mentioned were absorbed into other cultures and tribal groups.  So isn't it misleading to cite the vanishing of a cultural group or tribe as the vanishing of it's members?  These days DNA can trace ancestry.

Only a small fraction of the Indians survived, for them to be assimilated to the other cultures. For example, the tribe which Columbus first encountered in the Americas (Taino nation, within the Arawak super-group) numbered 3 million in 1492 (according to some sources, they numbered up to 8 million). Within the next 5 decades, this population went down to just 500 individuals. 80% of the mortalities were caused by disease and starvation, while 20% were caused by warfare with the Spaniards. The survivors were assimilated by the Spanish and the African slaves.

So is it a great crime to be socially disruptive?   To accidentally introduce diseases into populations when you don't even know what diseases are caused by?  To sell or give alcohol to natives not understanding they lack the gene to handle it?

Yes. It is a crime. Introducing previously unknown mortal diseases to peaceful populations is nothing short of outright genocide. And the Catholic priests refused to give medicines to the dying natives, asking them to do the prayers instead.

MEDICINES?  In an age when viruses and bacteria were not even known?  Don't make me laugh.

Meanwhile, since you affirm these actions or lack of are "crimes," I repeat my assertion.


If all these things are crimes, then we need to immediately stop all the disruptive technologies we are now working on - GMO crops, computers, AI, gene splicing, cloning, space exploration, anything else that might cause the Enlightened People of hundreds of years hence to think of us as criminals.

The only way you can be logically be consistent is to immediately stop using your computer.  I assume then that the proof of your conviction is that we won't see any more posts?