Nefario GLBSE

[repentance]

Labeling him as scammer now, when he is presumably forced to close down by legal authorities or on advice of his legal counsel, is hypocritical, particularly when these cries come from people who would prefer Nefario to continue operating it illegally.

Of course it's hypocritical, but there's no shortage of people around here who are happy to tolerate legal ambiguity or outright illegality as long as it's benefiting them financially.  When they lose money in those same schemes (which are always at risk of being shut down suddenly and forcibly even if they're not outright scams), they want to find a scapegoat and portray themselves as victims.

[Puppet]

What makes you think he is burning that list?

As for your example, you may find it is indeed illegal and you will be liable for the losses if those loses are the result of gross mismanagement and/or if you didnt properly disclose risks to your investors etc.

To clarify my standpoint.


Scamming has to do with ethics.

ethics != law   (sometimes it is sometimes it is not)


/GoK

Either way, I dont think you can argue someone would have to break the law to avoid being labeled a scammer. If Nefario does what he  (legally)  can do to return the assets and bitcoins to their  owners, then I fail to see a reason to label him a scammer. Theymos should know better than that, it seems he is just pissed his investment didnt pan out. Tough luck for him, he should have done his own due diligence about the legality of running a security exchange.

[Akka]

What makes you think he is burning that list?

As for your example, you may find it is indeed illegal and you will be liable for the losses if those loses are the result of gross mismanagement and/or if you didnt properly disclose risks to your investors etc.

To clarify my standpoint.


Scamming has to do with ethics.

ethics != law   (sometimes it is sometimes it is not)


/GoK

Either way, I dont think you can argue someone would have to break the law to avoid being labeled a scammer. If Nefario does what he  (legally)  can do to return the assets and bitcoins to their  owners, then I fail to see a reason to label him a scammer. Theymos should know better than that, it seems he is just pissed his investment didnt pan out. Tough luck for him, he should have done his own due diligence about the legality of running a security exchange.

Not quite if Thaymos says the thrus here about GLBSE funds the Nefario is indeed a scammer.

GLBSE user funds are more or less safe, but I have bad news from the GLBSE shareholder meeting.

Nefario has, without a shareholder motion and in violation of the bylaws and GLBSE ToS, decided to close down GLBSE. Users will be able to collect deposits only after submitting identity info. A similar system to the one that Goat was forced to use will be provided so that assets can be traded elsewhere.

He is also illegally using user deposits to pay for his lawyer. If he continues, the GLBSE cash reserves (which I manage) will not be enough to cover costs and GLBSE will be in debt to users.

I'm very sorry about this, but those shareholders who are sane are helpless against Nefario and the insane shareholders who for some mind-boggling reason think that closing down GLBSE in this way will help both themselves and GLBSE users.

Since Nefario refuses to give complete details about his legal concerns and he has been acting strangely, I feel that it is somewhat possible that Nefario is working under some sort of plea bargain and is gathering IDs for future prosecution.

Nefario has defrauded me and others in several different ways and deserves a scammer tag.
- The BitcoinGlobal bylaws state that BitcoinGlobal's purpose is to operate GLBSE. By shutting down GLBSE without amending the bylaws, Nefario has violated the bylaws.
- He has stated that he would ignore any motion to remove him as CEO.
- He is knowingly making BitcoinGlobal shares worthless, violating his fiduciary duty.
- He is refusing to release my GLBSE balance without my ID, which I did not agree to.

Since my GLBSE shares are now worthless, it should be obvious that I had no knowledge of this before now.

I urge everyone to never work with Nefario again. A Bitcoin stock exchange is a good idea, though. I hope that someone will create something better than GLBSE and MPEx.

[danster82]

The GLBSE deals entirely in bitcoins it is a closed system in that respect. Therefore if the government want to claim money laundering, they can indeed, BUT not until they classify bitcoins as a form of money of which they must then accept as payment of tax.

On a side note does anyone have contact details in order to get our shareholder details so we contact the issuers.

What is the email for contacting glbse.

[danster82]

The GLBSE deals entirely in bitcoins it is a closed system in that respect. Therefore if the government want to claim money laundering, they can indeed, BUT not until they classify bitcoins as a form of money of which they must then accept as payment of tax.

Is that true? Does the US government take Euro's (or any other fiat currency) for payment of taxes? I was under the assumption that the use of US Dollars was mandatory.

Well it is legislated that you must file tax's whilst earning in foreign countries so yes they do accept euros for payment of tax's, you just file out your 1040's(i think?) slightly differently, this is because it is an international banking cartel, it doesnt care much for any particular country.

The GLBSE is no diffrent from trade within a virtual game it is a closed system, if its money laundering then the government cant have it both ways, bitcoins must be considered money and acceptable as payment for tax's which of course would be immensely positive thing for bitcoins.

[Puppet]

This isnt about money laundering.  GLBSE assets are unregistered securities, and a such selling them is illegal - at least in the US.  Securities dont have to be nominated in are traded for fiat. They only need to represent value/debt.

[BitcoinINV]

I think the part that makes him a scammer is not listening to the board, he said he would not hand over the company. He should still have to listen to them if there is a legal matter or not.

[jasinlee]

I think accepting fees for a service he was knowingly going to close down a couple days later makes him no better than any other scammer who simply accepts payment and does not deliver.

[bitcool]

This isnt about money laundering.  GLBSE assets are unregistered securities, and a such selling them is illegal - at least in the US.  Securities dont have to be nominated in are traded for fiat. They only need to represent value/debt.

GLBSEX did not sell these securities, the issuers did.

It's equivalent to operating an unregistered whorehouse in the financial world. As TPTB want to monopoly this very profitable industry, they make the license fee prohibitively  expensive.
 

[danster82]

This isnt about money laundering.  GLBSE assets are unregistered securities, and a such selling them is illegal - at least in the US.  Securities dont have to be nominated in are traded for fiat. They only need to represent value/debt.

But unregistered securities havent been sold thats the point, because it has to be bought with fiat, therefore nothing was officaly sold if nothing was offical bought, the law must provide a remedy if its accusing you of a crime, therefore if you had approached the alleged authroitys and said I need to register these security's they would of turned you away because they would not recognise them as security's therefore you would have had no remedy in law for the accused crime. 

[crazy_rabbit]

This isnt about money laundering.  GLBSE assets are unregistered securities, and a such selling them is illegal - at least in the US.  Securities dont have to be nominated in are traded for fiat. They only need to represent value/debt.

But unregistered securities havent been sold thats the point, because it has to be bought with fiat, therefore nothing was officaly sold if nothing was offical bought, the law must provide a remedy if its accusing you of a crime, therefore if you had approached the alleged authroitys and said I need to register these security's they would of turned you away because they would not recognise them as security's therefore you would have had no remedy in law for the accused crime. 

That's a long sentence.

[danster82]

That's a long sentence.

Well take a deep breath then you'll be alright.

[Puppet]

But unregistered securities havent been sold thats the point, because it has to be bought with fiat,

Thats not what I read in the securities act of 1933. They have to be traded for value.

(3) The term ‘‘sale’’ or ‘‘sell’’ shall include every contract of
sale or disposition of a security or interest in a security, for
value. The term ‘‘offer to sell’’, ‘‘offer for sale’’, or ‘‘offer’’ shall
include every attempt or offer to dispose of, or solicitation of
an offer to buy, a security or interest in a security, for value.
http://www.sec.gov/about/laws/sa33.pdf

It doesnt mention fiat and good luck making a point for court that bitcoins have no value.

[Puppet]

GLBSEX did not sell these securities, the issuers did.

I agree, and thats why I think people like GigaVPS are in a lot of trouble (particularly since he happens to be American and not anonymous).

[niko]

GLBSEX did not sell these securities, the issuers did.

I agree, and thats why I think people like GigaVPS are in a lot of trouble (particularly since he happens to be American and not anonymous).

What we have going on in Bitcoin community is an epidemic of ignorance and oblivion. Most were trading, IPOing, investing, and speculating without any due diligence, without research of legal implications, and ultimately without knowing what they were getting themselves into.  Some even suffer from mental inability to distinguish their own ideological views and fantasies from reality.

Nefario may be doing the right thing for himself and for the Bitcoin in the long run. Time will tell.

[MPOE-PR]

I predict after friday things are gonna change and more level heads will prevail.

Hello, this is after Friday.

[conspirosphere.tk]

Nefario may be doing the right thing for himself and for the Bitcoin in the long run. Time will tell.

You must have missed something. If he wanted to stay beyond the law as he always said, he should have gone the silkroad way on the .onion network or at least offshore hosting. Instead he made a huge mess announcing to the world to be beyond the law and registering an LLC at the same time (and not asking a lawyer about it). How can one be so retard?

[SlaveInDebt]

Nefario may be doing the right thing for himself and for the Bitcoin in the long run. Time will tell.

You must have missed something. If he wanted to stay beyond the law as he always said, he should have gone the silkroad way on the .onion network or at least offshore hosting. Instead he made a huge mess announcing to the world to be beyond the law and registering an LLC at the same time (and not asking a lawyer about it). How can one be so retard?

Exactly and if you involved yourself in his operation still you have none other than yourself to blame.
Risk it's yours.

[conspirosphere.tk]

Nefario may be doing the right thing for himself and for the Bitcoin in the long run. Time will tell.

You must have missed something. If he wanted to stay beyond the law as he always said, he should have gone the silkroad way on the .onion network or at least offshore hosting. Instead he made a huge mess announcing to the world to be beyond the law and registering an LLC at the same time (and not asking a lawyer about it). How can one be so retard?

Exactly and if you involved yourself in his operation still you have none other than yourself to blame.
Risk it's yours.

With the tiny detail that I knew just yesterday that he never consulted a lawyer. I did not expect that since it is a too big blooper.
BTW: now that I learned to never trust anyone in BTC-related matters, I will keep my coins in cold storage until I sell them. Guess the impact on the BTC economy if most do the same.

[BadBear]

This isnt about money laundering.  GLBSE assets are unregistered securities, and a such selling them is illegal - at least in the US.  Securities dont have to be nominated in are traded for fiat. They only need to represent value/debt.

But unregistered securities havent been sold thats the point, because it has to be bought with fiat, therefore nothing was officaly sold if nothing was offical bought, the law must provide a remedy if its accusing you of a crime, therefore if you had approached the alleged authroitys and said I need to register these security's they would of turned you away because they would not recognise them as security's therefore you would have had no remedy in law for the accused crime. 

No they don't have to be bought with fiat. They can be bought with anything of value, or else anyone could get around this law by buying corn/cows/bitcoin and trading with that. It's not fiat so it doesn't count isn't gonna fly.

If you think the govt hasn't thought this through and don't have a plan or law in place for loopholes you're sorely mistaken.