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Author Topic: FPGA Inflection Point  (Read 7271 times)
Chucksta
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June 02, 2011, 03:26:45 PM
 #21

Most comp-techies have a pile of MISC comp parts..., Sticky keyboards....

!!!!

Getting hands confused during one handed keyboard moments  Shocked ?


LOL, sorry  Grin
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June 02, 2011, 03:38:11 PM
 #22

Difficulty has to increase 7.5x current values to make FPGA's more profitable at current prices.

At that point the economies make no sense.  At 3.3M difficulty, with your 250M FPGA you will be producing 0.08 BTC per day, so at $10/BTC you would pay off your FPGA in 625 days, in order to pay off your FPGA in the same 30 days as you can pay off your GPU currently BTC would have to be worth $208/BTC.  Because entrance to FPGAs is MUCH higher than GPUs that will push their usage back.  And you forgot to account for people with free power which may very well eliminate FPGAs usage all together.  FPGAs will probably never be popular for mining due to slowing difficulty and ever lower ROI.
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June 02, 2011, 04:03:18 PM
 #23

For USB KEYS
if you have many rigs like more than 10 rig, you can use PXE to boot linuxcoin, save the cost of USB key

3 x 5830 = $320
Motherboard = $100
Power Supply = $50
Processor = $30

Total = $500

hard drive? memory?

USB = $1

Cheap Memory = $10.

You people are ridiculous.
case? operating system? fans? keyboard? mouse? printer? scanner?  fax machine?  56k modem?!?

56k modem !

what decade are you in ?

Anyway, you don't need any of the items you listed, once you have your first machine, that is.

I have 1 monitor, 1 keyboard, 1 mouse, KVM, and 4 machines Smiley

3 are dedicated miners with bootable usb with Linuxcoin

Okay, okay, fans might be a good idea Smiley

16TaG8kMPMdsF1ABj2p2dbQX3WK4yG2bG3
phillipsjk
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June 02, 2011, 04:21:05 PM
 #24


56k modem !

what decade are you in ?

Anyway, you don't need any of the items you listed, once you have your first machine, that is.


The modem is so you can keep mining after your ISP drops you like a hot potato for "illegal" activity. The prudent would be working on setting up open mesh networking, but that takes time.

Note: the cheap dial-up plans are often limited to 20 hours/month.

James' OpenPGP public key fingerprint: EB14 9E5B F80C 1F2D 3EBE  0A2F B3DE 81FF 7B9D 5160
Freakin
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June 02, 2011, 04:42:57 PM
 #25

Government intervention is the bigger concern right now, IMO (and no, I'm not suggesting any government is anywhere close to looking at BTC as a problem yet).

If you could build a GH/s machine for even $1000, you could recreate the current power of the network for under $5M with simple consumer hardware. 

That is pocket change to the US Gov. 

Add in labor, DC build out, NOC, etc and you could build a 5TH/s+ BTC mining DC for easily $10-20M to break the 50% barrier.  It's fine to say stuff like "the top 500 supercomputers don't equal the processing power of the current network" but 5000x 1 gigahash machines do.  I guarantee you with a $20M "btc-killing" budget a company could get it done.  This is certainly not a single-purpose datacenter either and has a lot of potential value for defense in general.

Hopefully by the point world governments take notice the network is already in double digit TH/s range, but right now it's not as invincible as people seem to suggest. 

How comfortable would you be trading stuff for BTC if you can't get any confirmations that they money wasn't double-spent?

comboy
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June 02, 2011, 05:01:17 PM
 #26

One thing that was not included in calculations, is that for GPUs, it does not scale all that easily. Space for boxes is not a big issue, but cooling installation takes some money, and keeping it cool also costs some elecricity. I dont have enough knowledge to give you reliable estimations, but it's really not that easy to keep room cool with even 10 of such boxes.

Also, I believe FPGA solutions are still immature at the moment, and cost of it will go down. For cost comparison to be more useful it would be nice to include more details about FPGA cost as you did for GPU setup.

And thanks for nice comparison.

Variance is a bitch!
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June 02, 2011, 05:31:11 PM
 #27

One thing that was not included in calculations, is that for GPUs, it does not scale all that easily. Space for boxes is not a big issue, but cooling installation takes some money, and keeping it cool also costs some elecricity. I dont have enough knowledge to give you reliable estimations, but it's really not that easy to keep room cool with even 10 of such boxes.

Also, I believe FPGA solutions are still immature at the moment, and cost of it will go down. For cost comparison to be more useful it would be nice to include more details about FPGA cost as you did for GPU setup.

And thanks for nice comparison.

You can add once off fee for 1500w(equivalent) aircon that cost me $400, thats what I am using in a 2.5mX2.5mX2m room, and it keeps the room chilled at 10celcius.

The secret with cooling is, small room - open layout(nocases) - cheapish aircon. This works alot better than some of these extraction fan contraptions Ive seen posted on here.

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June 02, 2011, 06:07:44 PM
 #28

I just did some calculations, and ASICs might actually be affordable.

Assuming one can sell 500 of them, building a "bitcoin accelerator card" which yields 5 gigahashes might be possible for less than $1000. If one wants to build one big (copacobana/deepcrack-like) mining rig instead of selling cards, one could possibly reach 5 terahashes (and thus attack the network) with less than a million dollars, probably more like half a million. (This beast would contain 2000 chips.)

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June 02, 2011, 06:09:09 PM
 #29

I'm still sticking with $650 for the described system in the opening post.  The pricing of the video cards is pretty optimistic and doesn't seem a reliable price.  It would've been much better if MSRP was used rather than "... I saw this part on NewEgg, and this other part on Ebay.... TigerDirect sold these last year for $30..."  Granted, your amateur miner isn't going to go pay MSRP for everything - but using MSRP further validates the point.  Even a weighted average price from retailers ($109 is not it....) would be more accurate and supportive.

Also, I hate it when people try to claim cases increase heat (or by proxy no case makes the system run cooler).  With no circulation (extractors/fans/etc), you only have ambient thermal transfer and a liquid cooler wasn't in the original description.  Not to mention you have the "oops" risk of damage.  It's just silly a silly myth and a simple hack that people enjoy doing.

PXE boot is a great idea - for one of my arrays, I don't have that ability because of restrictions on the network.

As other people are constantly reminded - the mining machine is a resellable asset.  Not to mention most of the items required to make a decent mining commitment (300MHs) are already available in most peoples homes in the form of a gaming PC.  FPGAs are a much more extreme investment and resale isn't nearly as accessible.  PC mining is nearly "idiot proof" now.  Building and managing FPGA arrays.... not so much....

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June 02, 2011, 06:14:40 PM
 #30

Holy crap guys stop just trying to add variables like "desk" and "the keyboard" and "monitor"

Most comp-techies have a pile of MISC comp parts, Things like crappy ram, Mobo's old PSU's, Sticky keyboards. So thats why he left so many things outta the calculation.


Oh and a case? thats not even neccesary, And we all have spare cases

I lol'd.

I have plastic bins full of everything on the list, and then some.

The wife's not a fan.

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June 02, 2011, 06:16:19 PM
 #31

Holy crap guys stop just trying to add variables like "desk" and "the keyboard" and "monitor"

Most comp-techies have a pile of MISC comp parts, Things like crappy ram, Mobo's old PSU's, Sticky keyboards. So thats why he left so many things outta the calculation.

And there are such things a Molex-4-pin into PCI-E 6pin adapters... Like ffs the PSU doesnt need to have them, It just needs to fuel them

Oh and a case? thats not even neccesary, And we all have spare cases

You missed the joke.

Quote
case? operating system? fans? keyboard? mouse? printer? scanner?  fax machine?  56k modem?!?#


Freakin
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June 02, 2011, 06:23:22 PM
 #32

Quote
The wife's not a fan.

Big deal. You probably have plenty of fans in the spare parts bins...
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June 02, 2011, 08:52:29 PM
 #33

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The wife's not a fan.

Big deal. You probably have plenty of fans in the spare parts bins...

And they blow whenever you want them to...

Variance is a bitch!
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June 02, 2011, 10:02:57 PM
 #34

Difficulty has to increase 7.5x current values to make FPGA's more profitable at current prices.

At that point the economies make no sense.  At 3.3M difficulty, with your 250M FPGA you will be producing 0.08 BTC per day, so at $10/BTC you would pay off your FPGA in 625 days, in order to pay off your FPGA in the same 30 days as you can pay off your GPU currently BTC would have to be worth $208/BTC.  Because entrance to FPGAs is MUCH higher than GPUs that will push their usage back.  And you forgot to account for people with free power which may very well eliminate FPGAs usage all together.  FPGAs will probably never be popular for mining due to slowing difficulty and ever lower ROI.

625 day payoff is not very long.  50%+ ROI in one year is amazing.  I just bought a house and it's only producing a 25% ROI per year.

My point is a company could make this investment tomorrow, have the system online in a month, and be way out in front in the development of FPGA mining while making all our GPU's worthless.  I know we can sell, yadda yadda, but 10,000 GPU's being dumped on ebay at the same time will not sell for what you think.
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June 11, 2011, 09:44:35 PM
 #35

Difficulty has to increase 7.5x current values to make FPGA's more profitable at current prices.

At that point the economies make no sense.  At 3.3M difficulty, with your 250M FPGA you will be producing 0.08 BTC per day, so at $10/BTC you would pay off your FPGA in 625 days, in order to pay off your FPGA in the same 30 days as you can pay off your GPU currently BTC would have to be worth $208/BTC.  Because entrance to FPGAs is MUCH higher than GPUs that will push their usage back.  And you forgot to account for people with free power which may very well eliminate FPGAs usage all together.  FPGAs will probably never be popular for mining due to slowing difficulty and ever lower ROI.

625 day payoff is not very long.  50%+ ROI in one year is amazing.  I just bought a house and it's only producing a 25% ROI per year.

My point is a company could make this investment tomorrow, have the system online in a month, and be way out in front in the development of FPGA mining while making all our GPU's worthless.  I know we can sell, yadda yadda, but 10,000 GPU's being dumped on ebay at the same time will not sell for what you think.

Yes that is very true it is an amazing ROI, but the market is so volatile and young, putting that much money into it is a huge gamble, you don't know if BTC is going to be worth $1 or $1000 in 2 years, or even if it lasts that long.  I think if you explained what bitcoin is and the small history no one in their right mind would invest, there are just too many unknowns.
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June 12, 2011, 10:08:39 AM
 #36

Government intervention is the bigger concern right now, IMO (and no, I'm not suggesting any government is anywhere close to looking at BTC as a problem yet).

If you could build a GH/s machine for even $1000, you could recreate the current power of the network for under $5M with simple consumer hardware.  

That is pocket change to the US Gov.  

Add in labor, DC build out, NOC, etc and you could build a 5TH/s+ BTC mining DC for easily $10-20M to break the 50% barrier.  It's fine to say stuff like "the top 500 supercomputers don't equal the processing power of the current network" but 5000x 1 gigahash machines do.  I guarantee you with a $20M "btc-killing" budget a company could get it done.  This is certainly not a single-purpose datacenter either and has a lot of potential value for defense in general.

Hopefully by the point world governments take notice the network is already in double digit TH/s range, but right now it's not as invincible as people seem to suggest.  

How comfortable would you be trading stuff for BTC if you can't get any confirmations that they money wasn't double-spent?



I'd think international banking cartels would be more of a threat. But regardless, let's assume there is some threat entity [hereafter: "TE"] that would try to shut it down. The question is: Is there even a viable possible catastrophic threat to bitcoin(?)  Even if TE could swamp the network down and suck up all the remaining coins, there would still be 30% of all coins ever to be released already in circulation. TE would be holding, let's assume for argument, 70% of all bitcoins. So, what does TE do with them? Dump them on the market? Ok, then what did TE gain? What if TE hordes them and destroys them? Ok, bitcoins value go up due to lower supply... but bitcoins are divisible up to 8 decimal places. So, instead of there being a possible 2.1E10^15 coin fractions, there are then 0.7E10^15 or 7.0E10^14. Let's see, that's 700 Trillion coin division units. Assume a worldwide population of 10billion, and that leaves 70,000 units per person to spend. Of course, this is an extreme scenario and discounts that babies & very young children might not need to be counted, but it shows that there are sufficient increments remaining to perform as a mechanism of exchange fairly easily for all people - I think.

However, perhaps the threat possible is not related to hording or dumping...What is that threat? Hacking the bitcoin process? Maybe, it's just demotivation to any potentially new bitcoin miners or holders. How is bitcoin compromised? And more importantly, what are potential counters to that? Afterall, it is suppose to be designed to be extremely secure.
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June 12, 2011, 01:32:55 PM
 #37

If bitcoin ever gets big enough for "an entity" to shut it down, by that time the number of miners will be so huge they won't waste time building some massive computing grid to control the chain, or to flood the market with bitcoins to devalue it, as you pointed out that is worthless.  They will simply go after the exchanges, these are easily leaned on single points of failure that if taken out wouldn't destroy bitcoin, they would simply make it much less desirable as it wouldn't have any link to other currencies and make it a dead end.  Alternatively they could lobby for laws or political power to make bitcoins illegal in some way.
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June 21, 2011, 12:07:47 AM
 #38

well i see that most of the people here are in favour of GPU's.. but fpga are not as costly as we think...

I am not a miner, rather an fpga system developer. and if the estimates on these forums are accurate, i am quite sure that the fpga can take over gpu anytime. it is just till the right product gets in the market. 
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June 21, 2011, 05:39:02 AM
 #39

I just did some calculations, and ASICs might actually be affordable.

Assuming one can sell 500 of them, building a "bitcoin accelerator card" which yields 5 gigahashes might be possible for less than $1000. If one wants to build one big (copacobana/deepcrack-like) mining rig instead of selling cards, one could possibly reach 5 terahashes (and thus attack the network) with less than a million dollars, probably more like half a million. (This beast would contain 2000 chips.)

well im in. i buy three of these 500 Asic,s rigs if someone made them and im sure im not the only one in the waiting list
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