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Author Topic: BTC vs. Monero  (Read 4202 times)
americanpegasus
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July 28, 2015, 02:54:47 AM
 #41

The amount of users and transaction volume is critically important within a crypto-currency ecosystem to provide a high level of privacy and all alts have extremely small userbases. The fact that a user is using a "privacy focused" coin could also draw suspicion and extra focus vs bitcoin. The importance of a thriving market of local traders/ and non-KYC atms who will exchange BTC for cash is important. The diversity of wallets /implementations is also important in an ecosystem as it gives the users the ability to choose which one they feel is more secure and not backdoored.


Wait. 
 
So your argument is that because bitcoin has more users and is more established, it is the winner by default?  And no one can ever overtake it because it is already bigger than the superior technology?  By this logic, bitcoin should give up because that same golden reasoning disproves the need for bitcoin entirely in favor of fiat. 
 
If a vastly superior technology can overcome an outdated system, then bitcoin can replaced fiat.  BUT, if you agree that a vastly superior technology can over an outdated system, then you have to either accept that Monero has a chance to overtake bitcoin or that Monero is not a vastly superior technology. 
 
You called it a slight improvement, but that's ridiculous.  Bitcoin offered us digital and trustless cash for the first time.  Many alts after that tried to offer privacy as well, but failed because privacy is really, really hard to do. 
 
But Monero is the first fairly launched blockchain to achieve the holy grail of cryptocurrency: digital, trustless, AND completely private.  In fact, it's so good that if you made it any more private (zerocash), you would risk creating security risks. 
 
Cryptonote isn't some gimmicky privacy trick like masternodes... it's a true decentralized way to handle crypto privacy, and we as humans have never done that before. 
 
Think about that: Monero represents a new paradigm for our entire species, and you would have me believe its just another alt coin?  No way.

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July 28, 2015, 03:33:46 AM
 #42

Wait.  
  
So your argument is that because bitcoin has more users and is more established, it is the winner by default?  And no one can ever overtake it because it is already bigger than the superior technology?  By this logic, bitcoin should give up because that same golden reasoning disproves the need for bitcoin entirely in favor of fiat.  
  
If a vastly superior technology can overcome an outdated system, then bitcoin can replaced fiat.  BUT, if you agree that a vastly superior technology can over an outdated system, then you have to either accept that Monero has a chance to overtake bitcoin or that Monero is not a vastly superior technology.  
  
You called it a slight improvement, but that's ridiculous.  Bitcoin offered us digital and trustless cash for the first time.  Many alts after that tried to offer privacy as well, but failed because privacy is really, really hard to do.  
  
But Monero is the first fairly launched blockchain to achieve the holy grail of cryptocurrency: digital, trustless, AND completely private.  In fact, it's so good that if you made it any more private (zerocash), you would risk creating security risks.  
  
Cryptonote isn't some gimmicky privacy trick like masternodes... it's a true decentralized way to handle crypto privacy, and we as humans have never done that before.  
  
Think about that: Monero represents a new paradigm for our entire species, and you would have me believe its just another alt coin?  No way.

Very odd comment that reflects a knee jerk reaction and projected assumptions. Please read my comments slowly this time and try not to respond to comments I did not make. When you are ready to rationally discuss the nuances of privacy and security let me know.
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July 28, 2015, 05:06:29 AM
 #43



The fact that a user is using a "privacy focused" coin could also draw suspicion and extra focus vs bitcoin. T

This makes no sense as bitcoin transactions that seek anonymity--mixers, coinjoin, ect.--would and are being tagged by bitcoin analytic software. The difference here is fungibility: 1 xmr = 1 xmr and 1 untainted btc = 1 untainted btc, but 1 tainted btc doesn't always equal 1 untainted btc--ask the guys who robbed evolution or ask block trail mint (they are selling freshly mined btc at a premium).

Monero has a viewkey if you want to be compliant, bitcoin has complicated measures to attempt to be non-compliant that may or may not be effective depending on who's watching.

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July 28, 2015, 05:48:22 AM
Last edit: July 28, 2015, 06:00:57 AM by BitUsher
 #44



The fact that a user is using a "privacy focused" coin could also draw suspicion and extra focus vs bitcoin. T

This makes no sense as bitcoin transactions that seek anonymity--mixers, coinjoin, ect.--would and are being tagged by bitcoin analytic software. The difference here is fungibility: 1 xmr = 1 xmr and 1 untainted btc = 1 untainted btc, but 1 tainted btc doesn't always equal 1 untainted btc--ask the guys who robbed evolution or ask block trail mint (they are selling freshly mined btc at a premium).

Monero has a viewkey if you want to be compliant, bitcoin has complicated measures to attempt to be non-compliant that may or may not be effective depending on who's watching.

The mere act of accepting and transacting in a privacy coin could draw greater attention and scrutiny to the users(unless it became more mainstream than other cryptocoins that aren't mainly focused on privacy) . You are surrounding yourself with people who really want additional privacy and using tools specific for privacy. With Bitcoin you can live in both worlds where some of your addresses are transparent and attached to your identity, others aren't attached to your identity and pseudonymous, and others are extremely private and near anonymous. This gives better plausible deniability and associates you with a crowd of mixed users with different interests.

Fungibility is an interesting and subtle difference and a unique feature of crypto-note coins where they "spread" taint quicker between all active users and therefore newly minted crypto-note cryptocoins wouldn't fetch as much of a premium when the market grows to a larger level. I believe the slight premium fetched by virgin BTC is temporary and will decrease/evaporate as better privacy tools come online and more btc is tainted with higher volume of txs , especially when decentralized marketplaces(OpenBazaar) grow and high amounts of BTC gets exchanged with both legal and illegal businesses.

 
generalizethis
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July 28, 2015, 06:00:11 AM
 #45



The fact that a user is using a "privacy focused" coin could also draw suspicion and extra focus vs bitcoin. T

This makes no sense as bitcoin transactions that seek anonymity--mixers, coinjoin, ect.--would and are being tagged by bitcoin analytic software. The difference here is fungibility: 1 xmr = 1 xmr and 1 untainted btc = 1 untainted btc, but 1 tainted btc doesn't always equal 1 untainted btc--ask the guys who robbed evolution or ask block trail mint (they are selling freshly mined btc at a premium).

Monero has a viewkey if you want to be compliant, bitcoin has complicated measures to attempt to be non-compliant that may or may not be effective depending on who's watching.

The mere act of accepting and transacting in a privacy coin could draw greater attention and scrutiny to the users(unless it became more mainstream than other cryptocoins that aren't mainly focused on privacy) .

Fungibility is an interesting and subtle difference and a unique feature of crypto-note coins where they "spread" taint quicker between all active users and therefore newly minted crypto-note cryptocoins wouldn't fetch as much of a premium when the market grows to a larger level. I believe the slight premium fetched by virgin BTC is temporary and will decrease/evaporate as better privacy tools come online and more btc is tainted with higher volume of txs , especially when decentralized marketplaces grow and high amounts of BTC gets exchanged with both legal and illegal businesses.

 

Based on the current laws, Monero's viewkey allows you to be compliant--as for attention and scrutiny from a source you don't want looking at your finances (competitors, LEA, hackers, mobsters, your wife, husband, ect.) the whole point of a privacy coin is that extra scrutiny means extra time wasted by them. 

Cryptonote coins don't spread taint quicker, they erase it--that's the difference. I think it's chimerical that you think that the technology that exposes bitcoin's fungibility flaws wont keep pace with those that haven't yet fixed them--i guess the future is whatever you want it to be....

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July 28, 2015, 06:24:05 AM
 #46

Based on the current laws, Monero's viewkey allows you to be compliant

Fair point, I will concede that is better as more privacy is default and transparency is optional.


as for attention and scrutiny from a source you don't want looking at your finances (competitors, LEA, hackers, mobsters, your wife, husband, ect.) the whole point of a privacy coin is that extra scrutiny means extra time wasted by them.  

No, You fail to recognize that scrutiny of an individual can happen off the blockchain and likely would be the principle way to target very private individuals. Notice how I suggest this could merely be a temporary dilemma because if large parts of society start using Monero or other cryptonote coins than the userbase gets diluted with normal and boring transactions. In the interim this ironic problem is a real concern. 


Cryptonote coins don't spread taint quicker, they erase it--that's the difference.

It certainly isn't erasing the taint when an investigator has a group of possible addresses to investigate just like with coinjoin/coinshuffle, especially if your possible txs are coming from a group of individuals really concerned about privacy.
generalizethis
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July 28, 2015, 06:37:47 AM
Last edit: July 28, 2015, 06:49:22 AM by generalizethis
 #47

Based on the current laws, Monero's viewkey allows you to be compliant

Fair point, I will concede that is better as more privacy is default and transparency is optional.


as for attention and scrutiny from a source you don't want looking at your finances (competitors, LEA, hackers, mobsters, your wife, husband, ect.) the whole point of a privacy coin is that extra scrutiny means extra time wasted by them.  

No, You fail to recognize that scrutiny of an individual can happen off the blockchain and likely would be the principle way to target very private individuals. Notice how I suggest this could merely be a temporary dilemma because if large parts of society start using Monero or other cryptonote coins than the userbase gets diluted with normal and boring transactions. In the interim this ironic problem is a real concern.  


Cryptonote coins don't spread taint quicker, they erase it--that's the difference.

It certainly isn't erasing the taint when an investigator has a group of possible addresses to investigate just like with coinjoin/coinshuffle, especially if your possible txs are coming from a group of individuals really concerned about privacy.

Unless a viewkey gives permissions, the addresses are stealth and have no link to a particular transaction or a user's balance information, so I'm not sure I get your point about possible addresses to investigate or how off-chain surveillance affects any user not involved....

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July 28, 2015, 07:09:38 AM
 #48

Unless a viewkey gives permissions, the addresses are stealth and have no link to a particular transaction or a user's balance information, so I'm not sure I get your point about possible addresses to investigate or how off-chain surveillance affects any user not involved....

You are conflating separate attack vectors. You currently talk about, invest in, and promote Monero. This makes you a bit more interesting to focus upon the average bitcoin user. Just like how I am more of a target than the average fiat only user.
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July 28, 2015, 07:37:09 AM
 #49

Unless a viewkey gives permissions, the addresses are stealth and have no link to a particular transaction or a user's balance information, so I'm not sure I get your point about possible addresses to investigate or how off-chain surveillance affects any user not involved....

You are conflating separate attack vectors. You currently talk about, invest in, and promote Monero. This makes you a bit more interesting to focus upon the average bitcoin user. Just like how I am more of a target than the average fiat only user.

Oh, like using richlists?

moneroblocks.eu/richlist

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July 28, 2015, 08:02:11 AM
 #50

Oh, like using richlists?

moneroblocks.eu/richlist

Now you are just being disingenuous. I have given you a clear and a specific example that you refuse to acknowledge and are deflecting by discussing blockchain analysis more.

No, You fail to recognize that scrutiny of an individual can happen off the blockchain and likely would be the principle way to target very private individuals.

generalizethis
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July 28, 2015, 08:22:21 AM
 #51

Oh, like using richlists?

moneroblocks.eu/richlist

Now you are just being disingenuous. I have given you a clear and a specific example that you refuse to acknowledge and are deflecting by discussing blockchain analysis more.

No, You fail to recognize that scrutiny of an individual can happen off the blockchain and likely would be the principle way to target very private individuals.



How many monero do I have? I guess someone can tie me up and beat me with a rubber hose, but they'll get my bank account info, cash, and precious metals, my wife, my dog..... There's no preventing this attack whatever coin you use. But as far as being a monero supporter marks me, who knows how many I have and if it would be worth the trouble to beat me? If you are worried, don't post on monero threads and that is that.

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July 28, 2015, 08:46:51 AM
 #52

How many monero do I have? I guess someone can tie me up and beat me with a rubber hose, but they'll get my bank account info, cash, and precious metals, my wife, my dog..... There's no preventing this attack whatever coin you use. But as far as being a monero supporter marks me, who knows how many I have and if it would be worth the trouble to beat me? If you are worried, don't post on monero threads and that is that.

The amount of your assets can be determined off the blockchain as well and would likely be investigated just like with btc. The point I am trying to make is using a coin specifically intended for better privacy does place you in the camp of users who are likely interested in better privacy which may expose you to extra scrutiny.

But as far as being a monero supporter marks me, who knows how many I have and if it would be worth the trouble to beat me? If you are worried, don't post on monero threads and that is that.

Not a very useful currency if you cannot advertise that you accept it and don't ask to pay In it and don't discuss it openly.
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July 28, 2015, 08:59:10 AM
 #53

No, You fail to recognize that scrutiny of an individual can happen off the blockchain and likely would be the principle way to target very private individuals.


It's an interesting point, but very dangerous to assume that Bitcoin offers you practical stealth through transactional chaos. In any event, privacy isn't just for criminals - it's a human need and has a powerful political energy. Being pro-privacy doesn't neccesarily equate to fear of exposure.
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July 28, 2015, 10:17:14 AM
 #54


But Monero is the first fairly launched blockchain to achieve the holy grail of cryptocurrency: digital, trustless, AND completely private

That is not the "holy grail" of cryptocurrency.

The "completely private" bit destroys a cryptocurrency's viability as an unbacked monetary medium as long as it uses obfuscation as its basis.

Obfuscated privacy is the domain of financial records, not the money itself. At best, Monero/Cryptonote is a decentralised record keeping tool, not a new form of money.
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July 28, 2015, 10:24:10 AM
 #55


But Monero is the first fairly launched blockchain to achieve the holy grail of cryptocurrency: digital, trustless, AND completely private

That is not the "holy grail" of cryptocurrency.

The "completely private" bit destroys a cryptocurrency's viability as an unbacked monetary medium as long as it uses obfuscation as its basis.

Obfuscated privacy is the domain of financial records, not the money itself. At best, Monero/Cryptonote is a decentralised record keeping tool, not a new form of money.


Oh jesus tok, your back on this? How many times?

Wait, where's the guy that said cryptocurrency has nothing to do with cryptography?

< Track your bitcoins! > < Track them again! > <<< [url=https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1qomqt/what_a_landmark_legal_case_from_mid1700s_scotland/] What is fungibility? >>> 46P88uZ4edEgsk7iKQUGu2FUDYcdHm2HtLFiGLp1inG4e4f9PTb4mbHWYWFZGYUeQidJ8hFym2WUmWc p34X8HHmFS2LXJkf <<< Free subdomains at moneroworld.com!! >>> <<< If you don't want to run your own node, point your wallet to node.moneroworld.com, and get connected to a random node! @@@@ FUCK ALL THE PROFITEERS! PROOF OF WORK OR ITS A SCAM !!! @@@@
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July 28, 2015, 10:25:37 AM
 #56

another thread comparing apple and horse poop

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July 28, 2015, 10:39:42 AM
Last edit: July 28, 2015, 10:50:08 AM by toknormal
 #57


Oh jesus tok, your back on this? How many times?

Wait, where's the guy that said cryptocurrency has nothing to do with cryptography?

Simply check your own signature. You're singing the praises of a record keeping system - not of a form of "money".

They have very different characteristics, very different priorities. To liken a public blockchain address to a fiat bank account is to liken a shipload of coal to a delivery line.

Cryptonote uses the fiat bank account as its metaphorical template i.e. a record keeping system that places the highest priority on concealment of financial records. Bitcoin uses gold as its metaphorical template - a form of base monetary media that exhibits a high conformance to accepted monetary properties.

There is no way that a mere record keeping system - however private - is ever going to pass for money itself or remotely accede to its value.
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July 28, 2015, 02:32:57 PM
 #58

Think about that: Monero represents a new paradigm for our entire species, and you would have me believe its just another alt coin?  No way.

I agree with you, but that might present a certain difficulty in re speed of adoption. We like to use "disruptive" as a buzzword, but like most buzzwords it does a fine job of obfuscating too. Wink Truly disruptive innovations take a long time before they become mainstreamed simply because the culture needs time to catch up with them.

Case in point: the video phone. The first vidphone didn't come from Skype: it came from AT&T's Bell Labs. A phone with a 7" CRT (in colour, too), it was ready-to-be-introduced as of the late 1960s. But it wasn't, because it was too ahead of its time - not technologically, but culturally.

On the consumer side, the prime client base for yakkin' on the phone was the housewife circuit - and that's where the cultural difficulties started. We're used to the casual and rumpled look, but that "cultural innovation" came via the Internet. During the dotcom bubble, a techy guy appearing unshaven and unkempt meant a workaholic: someone who got right on the Internet and started working in the then-new 24/7 cyberspace world. He looked the way he looked because he was so hard-working, he forgot to shower and groom himself. The same thing went for the female of the species, unkempt-wise.

People dressed down at home earlier, but they didn't show it in public. Back in the pre-Internet days, it was largely expected to groom yourself and see to your appearance before appearing in public. In the privacy of your home, it was okay to lounge around in a dirty undershirt or a housecoat. But in public, it was not: even taking out the garbage in your bathrobe or housecoat was iffy.

Note how the audiophone meshed well with this private/public grooming divide. And note how AT&T's vidphone clashed with it.

On the business side, the use case was: "Think of the advantages you'll have once you're able to see the fellow on the other end of the line! In the old days, you could only take his measure through his tone. But with this new vidphone, you can read his body language too! All from your good old chair! It's just like an insta-meeting that takes place right in your own office! All with AT&T's new marvel of high technology, the living-colour video phone!"

That little come-on was laconically shot down by this catch-22: "If it's important enough for me to gauge a man, I'd better see him in person. If it's not, why would I pay [a lot] extra for this whiz-bang gizmo?"

So...bye-bye videophone. Technologically, America was ready for it back in the Mad Men days. But culturally, it was in no way ready. That's why the innovation-ribbon went to Skype and not AT&T. It's an excellent case study on the fate of a truly disruptive innovation: one that disrupts our good old habits.

"The hell of it is", Monero adoption into the Joe-Average world would be a lot less difficult in the culture that shot down AT&T's vidphone. You could present the advantages of Monero simply by allegorizing the current fiat system as a gaggle of Peeping Toms. That would get the use-case through pretty durn swiftly.

But not in this culture. The sad part is, your prime adoption demographic has grown up in a post-9/11 and post-Internet-Bubble world. It's not going to be easy for them to get comfortable with the lost right of financial privacy, not in days when it's so easy to bad-guy someone like that. We really are living in a "if you've done nothing wrong, you've got nothing to hide" culture. Who wants to be compared to a pedophile, a drug dealer or a corporate fraudster?

But there is a way out: through history. Back in the 1920s, when bootleggers and illegal alcohol were the talk of many towns, the U.S. government issued $1000 bills - including $1000 gold certificates:


Five of these babies, and you had the price of a nice house in your wallet without any wallet bulge. You could buy a pretty fine homestead on the spot, and the worst that would happen is that you'd "cause talk." You could do it all on a whim, and every bank in the known universe would be completely cut out of the transaction. You could buy a house, a car, jewelry, all from money in your billfold and there was no need to let anyone know about anything. You could say "I don't trust banks!" and mean it. You could live your affluent life "unbanked" without any inconvenience. All you'd have to do is declare your income and fork over the taxes: if you declared and paid an amount that more-or-less squared with your lifestyle, a "reasonable" amount, you'd never, ever get audited.

Monero should appeal to the folks who find those long-ago times exotic and intriguing... 






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July 28, 2015, 04:32:15 PM
 #59

Monero will go to 78,4$ according to MACD then back to 34$ and stabilize around 47,3$ if bitcoin stays above 290$
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July 28, 2015, 04:50:54 PM
 #60

Monero will go to 78,4$ according to MACD then back to 34$ and stabilize around 47,3$ if bitcoin stays above 290$

what kind of money is this?
is this like 0.784$usd and 0.34$usd?

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