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Author Topic: Qubic - Quorum-Based Coin  (Read 25242 times)
Come-from-Beyond (OP)
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October 04, 2012, 12:42:32 PM
 #41

"Bringing ancient traditions back" - Brief description why Qubic doesn't require a person to be a tech savvy one to influence on the whole system - http://qubic.boards.net/index.cgi?action=display&board=theconcept&thread=5.
Etlase2
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October 04, 2012, 09:41:07 PM
 #42

should probably repost your conspiracy theory thread on your forum since it got deleted here.

I'm kinda surprised whoever did that did it, it only fuels the fire imo

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October 04, 2012, 10:32:08 PM
 #43

Why not take an approach where every kind of resource is rewarded in it's own way?

There are:
Computing Power (CPUs, FPGAs, GPUs)
Storage Capacity (Harddisks, SSDs, DRAM)
Memory Bandwidth (SRAM, DRAM, SSDs)
Network Capacity (Upload/Download Capacity)
Routing Resources (IPs, Infrastructure)

Currently only Computing Power is rewarded by Bitcoin, although it needs all of those tescources to function. Litecoin for example rewards Memory Bandwidth a litte bit more.
I propse to extend this to every resource which contributes to a functioning network.
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October 05, 2012, 05:21:33 AM
 #44

should probably repost your conspiracy theory thread on your forum since it got deleted here.

I'm kinda surprised whoever did that did it, it only fuels the fire imo

Aye. I'll do it and send the link to different bitcoin bloggers.
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October 05, 2012, 05:24:17 AM
 #45

Why not take an approach where every kind of resource is rewarded in it's own way?

There are:
Computing Power (CPUs, FPGAs, GPUs)
Storage Capacity (Harddisks, SSDs, DRAM)
Memory Bandwidth (SRAM, DRAM, SSDs)
Network Capacity (Upload/Download Capacity)
Routing Resources (IPs, Infrastructure)

Currently only Computing Power is rewarded by Bitcoin, although it needs all of those tescources to function. Litecoin for example rewards Memory Bandwidth a litte bit more.
I propse to extend this to every resource which contributes to a functioning network.

Qubic rewards Network but it's just a side-effect of the sybil attack defense.
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October 05, 2012, 08:41:04 AM
 #46

I wouldn't say it's weird. We used to use CPU-bound proof-of-work, so network-bound one is just not so familiar.

Not just "not so familiar", it has completely different properties.

Your hashing power depends only on what you do. I.e. you need to buy certain hashing device, then pay  for electricity. Costs are well understood, and you get stable hash rate if your hardware works.

But network bandwidth's nature is very different: it, by definition, depends on your interactions with whole network.

Quote
It's impossible to receive and transmit data at faster rate than allowed by a channel throughput.

It isn't enough to buy channel to some peer, as peer might not want to relay your traffic at full channel bandwidth.

Costs depend greatly on who you are:
  • For tier 1 networks bandwidth is usually free, they don't pay for peering. So for them it is about costs of creating channels, after that traffic is essentially free
  • Smaller networks might need to pay for peering, but they can get some free traffic on traffic exchanges and whatnot.
  • Commercial users often pay a lot for bandwidth they use. Unless they can find some wholesale deal. Wholesale bandwidth is much cheaper than regular price you can get from ISP, but you have to commit to some minimum. This is how things like imgur.com and sendbigfiles.com are possible. Just one shitty image on imgur can easily generate 100 GB traffic, but apparently they have fat pipes...
  • Residential user often pay a tiny sum for considerable bandwidth, but it depends on where you live. Essentially, ISPs think that even if you have 50 Mbit/s connection, you'll be using a tiny fraction of it on average. Some ISPs throttle heavy users...

So traffic price might change 1000-fold depending on who you are, where you are and how you're going to use it.

Thus it IS possible to simulate 1000 nodes for costs of just 1 node if you have some sweet deal.

Quote
Just like any computer center/cluster can attempt to attack Bitcoin.

Not really the same: attacking Bitcoin has opportunity/electricity costs. While spare bandwidth is essentially free.

Quote
ISPs have to cooperate each with other, coz in Qubic nodes r supposed to be distributed randomly around the globe.

Have you ever heard about packet spoofing? Your ISP can pretend to be around the globe.  Smiley
You cannot really check where packets come from geographically.

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Attack on Qubic might cost just a couple of bucks. Or billions. It depends on an implementation.

As I said, fundamental cost structure is different.

I think it would be cool to see a protocol where PoW will be augmented with some network-level checks. Essentially, we could isolate asshole miners who block legit transactions, or perform double-spends. I have designed a basic sketch of such implementation, BTW...

But using only "proof-of-bandwidth" seems to be a recipe for disaster: it waste resources just like Bitcoin, but does not provide same security.

Chromia: a better dapp platform
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October 05, 2012, 08:57:19 AM
 #47

Good points. I work hard to complete the code and test my idea in practice, so then we'll see how my "proof-of-bandwidth" works.
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October 07, 2012, 09:47:42 PM
 #48

"Solution of the biggest disadvantage of Bitcoin" - http://qubic.boards.net/index.cgi?action=display&board=socialissues&thread=6
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October 07, 2012, 09:53:26 PM
 #49

"Solution of the biggest disadvantage of Bitcoin" - http://qubic.boards.net/index.cgi?action=display&board=socialissues&thread=6


a very interesting read. Im very excited to see how you plan on ingratiating all of these ideas into a currency.

markm
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October 07, 2012, 10:06:42 PM
 #50

"Solution of the biggest disadvantage of Bitcoin" - http://qubic.boards.net/index.cgi?action=display&board=socialissues&thread=6

In short, "print moar moneyz".

-MarkM-

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October 08, 2012, 12:46:16 PM
 #51

I've published a new version of the provider prototype. Now it's possible to test how qubics r minted.

Everyone is welcome to join, u must have 443 port opened on ur computer. Also http://aws.amazon.com/free/ can be used as free hosting.

PS: http://qubic.boards.net/index.cgi?board=technicalbase&action=display&thread=2
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October 11, 2012, 11:20:33 AM
 #52

Hello, Stranger(s) from Mountain View, I noticed that u were visiting Qubic Forum a lot of times using different IPs. I'm curious if u r a search bot or a real person...
Etlase2
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October 11, 2012, 12:17:05 PM
 #53

maybe it's just a coincidence that google is based in mountain view

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October 11, 2012, 12:38:34 PM
 #54

Googlebot?

Bitcoin will show the world what hard money really is.
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October 11, 2012, 12:56:00 PM
 #55

Seems so. ISP = "Google Inc."

But why 10 bots at once?..
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March 11, 2013, 07:39:02 AM
 #56

For those who asked about the Sybil attack (from http://qubic.boards.net/index.cgi?board=theconcept&action=display&thread=7):

Quote
The Sybil attack is an attack wherein an attacker forges identities (providers in our case). In Qubic a successful Sybil attack lets to mint qubics out of thin air or sabotage normal functioning of the network.

There is only one point vulnerable to the Sybil attack - validation of qubics. Validation is used by a provider that joined the network AFTER a particular qubic was minted. The only way to make sure that this qubic is legitimate is to ask other providers and count their voices. If an attacker controls most part of the providers he can easily "validate" his fake qubics.

The proposed solution is based on "weighting". A weight should be assigned to every provider and decisions should be made according to weighted quorum. It's important that each provider does "weighting" by itself, the knowledge about weights is not shared and hence can't be forged. Once a day or two a provider distributes cryptographic puzzles among other providers. They must send back as many solutions as possible within certain period of time. The weight of each provider is set proportionally to number of solutions. The proof-of-work concept of Bitcoin can be used for puzzles.

Weighting helps to counteract against the Sybil attack. An attacker can easily fill the network with identities but these identities will get very low weights unless he has a lot of processing power, which will be economically unfeasible after the Qubic network becomes big enough.
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March 11, 2013, 08:05:06 AM
 #57

This seems to be a form of ripple ?

I landed in this country with $2.50 in cash and $1 million in hopes, and those hopes never left me.
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March 11, 2013, 08:10:40 AM
 #58

In Qubic a successful Sybil attack lets to mint qubics out of thin air or sabotage normal functioning of the network.

What's about double-spending?

Suppose there is a sudden loss of connectivity between Moscow and Petersburg, but my friend has a full copy of my wallet in Moscow while I'm in Petersburg.

We both can spend same qubic, can't we?

Well, I hope your software can detect that network is split and delay confirmation of payment.

However, this is where Sybil attack comes to play: without anti-Sybil measures, Moscow providers could impersonate Petersburg providers to make it seem like network isn't split.

Chromia: a better dapp platform
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March 11, 2013, 09:05:22 AM
Last edit: March 11, 2013, 09:16:11 AM by Come-from-Beyond
 #59

This seems to be a form of ripple ?

No. Similar but still different.


What's about double-spending?

Suppose there is a sudden loss of connectivity between Moscow and Petersburg, but my friend has a full copy of my wallet in Moscow while I'm in Petersburg.

We both can spend same qubic, can't we?

Well, I hope your software can detect that network is split and delay confirmation of payment.

However, this is where Sybil attack comes to play: without anti-Sybil measures, Moscow providers could impersonate Petersburg providers to make it seem like network isn't split.

Moscow providers can't pretend they are Petersburg ones, coz all traffic between providers is encrypted with a secret key. Each pair of providers has its own key. Moscow providers can spoof IP addresses but they can't guess the key.

Let's imagine that you spend 10 QBC to buy a car and your friend spends the same 10 QBC to buy a house. Both sellers get signed transactions and publish them into the different parts of the Qubic network. The transactions look like "destroy 10 QBC and create 10 QBC with other public key". After a minute both sellers begin to ask arbitrary providers if 10 QBC with new public key exists and count weighted voices. The seller in Moscow tries to ask providers in both cities, the same the seller in Petersburg. If the network is split close to 50/50 but sellers set the quorum as 75% then none of them will ship the purchased item because no reply == "the qubic doesn't exist". Let's assume that Moscow has 80% of all providers. In this case only one of the sellers will ship the item. And after the network is merged, info that old 10 QBC is destroyed will be propagated among Petersburg providers so they invalidate the transaction with double-spent qubics.
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March 11, 2013, 10:18:23 AM
 #60

I'm considering a scenario where split is 50/50, but 25 more providers appear in Moscow so that quorum is reached.

If I understand correctly, anti-Sybil measures such as weighting fix this situation: it isn't possible to create more providers in a short period of time.

Thus weighting is what protects the network from double-spend attacks. Am I right?

Chromia: a better dapp platform
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