Two Blockchains Discussion

[smoothie]

I thought this needed it's own thread to discuss more thoroughly.

Brunic, I think you are touching upon something here. Though I have a legit job and income myself, I does not require much of an imagination to see how some people would find LTCBTC use of mixing services before cashing out on a deep enough exchange and get perhaps get a identity tied to the transaction.

I have aggregated LTCBTC data for some months now and are eyeballing the ratio. I am especially interested to see if a spread betting (actually pair-betting) opportunity will emerge. Will it be possible to hedge the volatility in BTC with a stake in LTC? And so forth and so on... (I have written a little bit about this in my blog here: http://blog.aramisw.com/index.asp?action=view&filter=Economics&post=altcoins&creationdate=120724).

Nice blog post!

We never had two legit blockchains before that are completely independent from each other. It's not about what Litecoin brings that Bitcoin don't have, it's about the dynamic between them that was impossible before when you had only 1 currency. Namecoin can't serve the purpose well in my opinion, because it have a different purpose than simply being a currency, and also because merged mining cause it's value to be somewhat tied to Bitcoin. It acts more like a bonus and less like a different currency. You cannot secure your funds in Namecoin because in the case of a 51% attack, Namecoin is affected as much as Bitcoin.

Litecoin, by using Scrypt, can't be 51% at the same time as Bitcoin. Miners are also forced to choose one of the currencies, they can't choose both of them. The fact of choosing influence people toward that currency. Now, people are more used to Bitcoin, since it was the only choice before. But with the ASIC coming, all those GPU miners will be forced to choose Litecoin for a while (until Litecoin ASIC are made, if they are made). All those gamers who mined Bitcoin with their graphic card will be forced to mine Litecoin now. I said before, those GPU are not going to disappear, they are going to be used for something else.

If more GPU miners drift toward Litecoin, the interesting dynamic between blockchain will start to appear. Like you said, you could bet or hedge on one blockchain against the other, something that was impossible before. You could easily enter the market by buying BTC, transfers your BTC into LTC and get out by cashing out the LTC. Or vice-versa. Even if some freak make a program to analyze the blockchain, analyzing TWO blockchains makes following the money impossible and irrelevant, especially since they have a different tempo of validation.

If you wanted to hedge against Bitcoin before, the only option you had was using fiat funds. Now, you can hedge indefinitely by switching back and forth BTC-LTC without anybody knowing. Litecoin is the only viable option at the moment to enable this, because it needs to have small differences(different algorithm, different tempo), but staying similar enough to Bitcoin (same basic functions, same functional logic). Bitcoin needed a small brother, and I think we have it 

[Tomatocage]

PPC is emerging as a viable 3rd alternative too.

[markm]

I think things will get particularly interesting when the chains that can be merged mined but which have not yet come up with enough transaction volume to attract miners for the transaction fees manage to get to a point where they can operate as they intended, as public chains being merged-mined alongside all the other merged-mine-able chains.

I think it is really only the ones that are minted by miners that are cheap due to being freebies miners pick up on the side while mining bitcoins. Unless transaction fees are going to be so huge that they give the miners enough coins to effectively crash the value of the coin I think there might be a chance for those coins to retain most of their value even while being merged-mined. I suppose though that really depends on how outrageously exhorbitant the fees will have to be in order to convince miners to merged-mine them...

-MarkM-

[smoothie]

PPC is emerging as a viable 3rd alternative too.

It has been around for what 4 weeks?

Most people who started mining it had no clear idea how it worked. So many questions got answered after the fact.

I don't believe it is viable given how it started.

If you ask most about PPC they couldn't tell you how it works 100%.

[markm]

If you ask most about PPC they couldn't tell you how it works 100%.

We aren't sure yet that it actually does work 100%

-MarkM-

[smoothie]

If you ask most about PPC they couldn't tell you how it works 100%.

We aren't sure yet that it actually does work 100%

-MarkM-

I heard something about 30 days etc you have to hold coins to have a "stake".

I'm sorry but if they weren't willing to let people know ALL of the details before launching it or even when launching it, what's the point. It's only "fair" to those who know how it works.

Otherwise you can't make smart moves in terms of trading or holding coins.

[markm]

I do not see any stake listed yet in my getinfo, yet mined a block my first day, which I had thought was one of the first few days of the code being released. So I don't know what that is about, I thought having my mined coins online would mean after 30 days they would count as stake. Maybe not, maybe that field will only show anything once some of them have managed to mine a stake block or something.

Mining it makes no sense since it cannot be merged-mined since any hashing power diverted to it would be diverted from mining seven other chains, it is silly to spend hashes on this that could instead be spent on seven chains all at the same time via merged mining.

-MarkM-

[smoothie]

I do not see any stake listed yet in my getinfo, yet mined a block my first day, which I had thought was one of the first few days of the code being released. So I don't know what that is about, I thought having my mined coins online would mean after 30 days they would count as stake. Maybe not, maybe that field will only show anything once some of them have managed to mine a stake block or something.

Mining it makes no sense since it cannot be merged-mined since any hashing power diverted to it would be diverted from mining seven other chains, it is silly to spend hashes on this that could instead be spent on seven chains all at the same time via merged mining.

-MarkM-

+1 PPC = Pretty Pointless Coin

[doublec]

Mining it makes no sense since it cannot be merged-mined since any hashing power diverted to it would be diverted from mining seven other chains, it is silly to spend hashes on this that could instead be spent on seven chains all at the same time via merged mining.

There would be nothing stopping people from using ppcoin as the parent chain and merge mining other auxiliary chains afaik. You'd need to patch ppcoin if you want to use the namecoin merge mine proxy but it would remain compatible with normal ppcoin blocks. What you can't do is merge mine ppcoin and bitcoin together.

[Syke]

PPC is emerging as a viable 3rd alternative too.

It's hard to take PPC as anything more than a pump-n-dump when the block reward has already dropped in half...twice.

[Sunny King]

I do not see any stake listed yet in my getinfo, yet mined a block my first day, which I had thought was one of the first few days of the code being released. So I don't know what that is about, I thought having my mined coins online would mean after 30 days they would count as stake. Maybe not, maybe that field will only show anything once some of them have managed to mine a stake block or something.

Mining it makes no sense since it cannot be merged-mined since any hashing power diverted to it would be diverted from mining seven other chains, it is silly to spend hashes on this that could instead be spent on seven chains all at the same time via merged mining.

-MarkM-

A bit surprised you haven't sold all your ppc 

Keep it running eventually you will see some stake. Difficulty is now down to 30~40 and will continue to drop for proof-of-stake. Yes it only shows up if you have found a proof-of-stake block.

[markm]

Sell them? You crazy? I have nowhere near enough to go throwing them away like that at the pathetic prices prevailing nowadays. Heck even bitcoins are only fetching two digit prices in dollars these days, and altcoins fractions of a dollar. No, we'll see how things look in a decade or few...

-MarkM-

[smoothie]

Sell them? You crazy? I have nowhere near enough to go throwing them away like that at the pathetic prices prevailing nowadays. Heck even bitcoins are only fetching two digit prices in dollars these days, and altcoins fractions of a dollar. No, we'll see how things look in a decade or few...

-MarkM-

LOL flip flop flippity flop.

[markm]

Huh? No flipflop here, I have some of most altcoins, all that I could mine a few of. I mined a block of ppc and am keeping them, plus leaving the client running to see what this stake thing ends up doing.

-MarkM-

[Liquid]

PPC is here to stay 

[smoothie]

PPC is here to stay 

Have at it.

[AndyRossy]

PPC is emerging as a viable 3rd alternative too.

It has been around for what 4 weeks?

Most people who started mining it had no clear idea how it worked. So many questions got answered after the fact.

I don't believe it is viable given how it started.

If you ask most about PPC they couldn't tell you how it works 100%.

If you ask most people about stuff that's been around a short time, you're right, they probably wont know how it works. A lot of people understand litecoin, as it's just the same BTC, but with a different hashing algorithm - doesnt really bring anything new / worth learning; it's a very simple concept to learn.

Maybe it's a good thing, that people, unlike all the other Alt chains, need to read up a little about PPC before they understand it. The white paper can be found at http://ppcoin.org/

If you ask most about PPC they couldn't tell you how it works 100%.

We aren't sure yet that it actually does work 100%

-MarkM-

This reminds me of



So far PPC is to be working as outlined in the papers/specifications. I am not sure who "we" or "100%" refers to (maybe LTC community?).

If you ask most about PPC they couldn't tell you how it works 100%.

We aren't sure yet that it actually does work 100%

-MarkM-

I heard something about 30 days etc you have to hold coins to have a "stake".

I'm sorry but if they weren't willing to let people know ALL of the details before launching it or even when launching it, what's the point. It's only "fair" to those who know how it works.

Otherwise you can't make smart moves in terms of trading or holding coins.

Have you read the paper at all?  http://ppcoin.org/static/ppcoin-paper.pdf

A mint rate of 1 cent per coin-year consumed is chosen to
give rise to a low future inflation rate.

PPC is emerging as a viable 3rd alternative too.

It's hard to take PPC as anything more than a pump-n-dump when the block reward has already dropped in half...twice.

Do you understand why and how the block reward reduces, and how it is tied into difficulty?

Unlike the other alt-crypto chains the goal of PPC is not to feed energy inefficient miners; or early adopting miners.  It's the provide a stable, more energy efficient chain. Its also the first one to effectively implement Proof of Stake.

_____________________


I am happy to consider LTC as an viable Alt Currency, as is PPC.  PPC is different to LTC and BTC. What this thread suggests is that a lot of you LTC guys are very uninformed about PPC, and that it would be beneficial to read the white paper if you guys get a few minutes.

[smoothie]

PPC is emerging as a viable 3rd alternative too.

It has been around for what 4 weeks?

Most people who started mining it had no clear idea how it worked. So many questions got answered after the fact.

I don't believe it is viable given how it started.

If you ask most about PPC they couldn't tell you how it works 100%.

If you ask most people about stuff that's been around a short time, you're right, they probably wont know how it works. A lot of people understand litecoin, as it's just the same BTC, but with a different hashing algorithm - doesnt really bring anything new / worth learning; it's a very simple concept to learn.

Maybe it's a good thing, that people, unlike all the other Alt chains, need to read up a little about PPC before they understand it. The white paper can be found at http://ppcoin.org/

If you ask most about PPC they couldn't tell you how it works 100%.

We aren't sure yet that it actually does work 100%

-MarkM-

This reminds me of



So far PPC is to be working as outlined in the papers/specifications. I am not sure who "we" or "100%" refers to (maybe LTC community?).

If you ask most about PPC they couldn't tell you how it works 100%.

We aren't sure yet that it actually does work 100%

-MarkM-

I heard something about 30 days etc you have to hold coins to have a "stake".

I'm sorry but if they weren't willing to let people know ALL of the details before launching it or even when launching it, what's the point. It's only "fair" to those who know how it works.

Otherwise you can't make smart moves in terms of trading or holding coins.

Have you read the paper at all?  http://ppcoin.org/static/ppcoin-paper.pdf

A mint rate of 1 cent per coin-year consumed is chosen to
give rise to a low future inflation rate.

PPC is emerging as a viable 3rd alternative too.

It's hard to take PPC as anything more than a pump-n-dump when the block reward has already dropped in half...twice.

Do you understand why and how the block reward reduces, and how it is tied into difficulty?

Unlike the other alt-crypto chains the goal of PPC is not to feed energy inefficient miners; or early adopting miners.  It's the provide a stable, more energy efficient chain. Its also the first one to effectively implement Proof of Stake.

_____________________


I am happy to consider LTC as an viable Alt Currency, as is PPC.  PPC is different to LTC and BTC. What this thread suggests is that a lot of you LTC guys are very uninformed about PPC, and that it would be beneficial to read the white paper if you guys get a few minutes.

You must have missed the point about people knowing how it works before launching it. Gives the creator unfair advantage of how to trade etc. Posting the whitepaper 2 weeks in advance on this forum and answering questions would have been better. Also having an official countdown to launch date would make things much more fair.

Mine them to your heart's content. I could care less.

[Bitcoin Oz]

ppcoin would probably better as an investment coin than bitcoin considering it aims for mild inflation.

Bitcoin has proven it is not an investment currency at all.

It would be good if some service could hold your bitcoins and let you borrow altcoins to invest, using bitcoin simply as collateral.
This would work when the coin you borrow has inflation built in.