Bitcoin Forum
June 17, 2024, 04:56:39 AM *
News: Voting for pizza day contest
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Pages: « 1 2 [3]  All
  Print  
Author Topic: Executive Director of Bitcoin Foundation is incompetent and dangerous to Bitcoin  (Read 6009 times)
jgarzik
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1596
Merit: 1091


View Profile
September 29, 2012, 05:20:02 PM
 #41

The other goal is preventing forks in the Bitcoin network, and designing changes.  The foundation ensures its the authority by paying for development.

No, the foundation ensures it is one of many paying for development.  (if nobody else pays anyone else, then, yes, it is the only one paying)

Anyone can
  • Join the dev team
  • Hire your own dev team

and participate in the open source process.

That is why we make it so easy to fork the code: easy software replacement and easy dev replacement.


Jeff Garzik, Bloq CEO, former bitcoin core dev team; opinions are my own.
Visit bloq.com / metronome.io
Donations / tip jar: 1BrufViLKnSWtuWGkryPsKsxonV2NQ7Tcj
Transisto
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1731
Merit: 1008



View Profile WWW
September 29, 2012, 05:36:48 PM
 #42

The Foundation's core values include openness and transparency. I think the Bitcoin anonymous thing is overblown and a bit of a myth, by the way. Every bitcoin transaction links two addresses; often people can be determined from those addresses.
At any rate, we wish to make sure you can't stuff the ballot box during voting, and we wish civil productive discourse among our members, so we need real names and addresses.
If you just want to support us without joining, you can always send money to our vanity donation address: 1BTCorgHwCg6u2YSAWKgS17qUad6kHmtQW
The important part is in bold, it suggests that people using Bitcoin should not expect privacy at all. < 100% CORRECT (by default), but actually he said :" OVERBLOWN and a BIT of a myth.">


  • Incompetent: because Peter Vessenes doesn't know about mixing services https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Category:Mixing_Services , and have no idea about very real possibility to make Bitcoin transactions absolutely anonymous by default with a feature such as Automatic Coin Mixing Idea or P2P coin mixing
  • Dangerous: because he thinks it is okay if everyone knows your financial information, in another words he thinks it's fine to carry 10,000 USD in cash walking around in troubled neighborhood at night while loudly advertising that fact.



Earlier today Jeff Garzik said that Bitcoin Foundation scope is limited to Satoshi's vision:
Staying within Satoshi's vision is a clear limit on power.
Peter Vessenes has no such limit, what he said contradicts satoshi's vision that it should be easy to make anonymous Bitcoin transaction
For that level of anonymity you need to connect through TOR, which will be possible with version 0.2, which is only a few weeks away.  I'll post TOR instructions at that time.


I am starting to see it's in Hazek's way. It is nice to have powerful organization to do things for you, but it becomes very annoying the moment its goals is different than what you think is right.

RED = You fail hard.

Fact of life, BTC do get stolen, BTC are use for hideous crimes.  Don't you think BITCOIN is facilitating these enough already ?
Anonymous by default would surely kill bitcoin in the long run.

How about you start a mixing service and I pay you to report the IPs of people who stole my BTC ?  Seems like a win-win situation.
Polvos
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 597
Merit: 500



View Profile
September 29, 2012, 06:22:13 PM
 #43

Fact of life, BTC do get stolen, BTC are use for hideous crimes.  Don't you think BITCOIN is facilitating these enough already ?
Anonymous by default would surely kill bitcoin in the long run.

I'm still stunned. It seems that, from THE Bitcoin Foundation announcement, all of a sudden we need some representants to handshake VISA, banks and governments and anonymity=the_sure_end_of_bitcoin.

Probably the next startup will be "THE Bitcoin concentration camp" where all of you, foundation fanatics, could reeducate the last libertarians that still fight for the Satoshi project.

Serith (OP)
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 269
Merit: 250


View Profile
September 29, 2012, 06:31:43 PM
 #44

The thread title is bombastic and poorly chosen. However:

I believe that financial privacy is very, very important. Peter Vessenes, according to him doesn't share that opinion, and he also doesn't know some technical facts about Bitcoin Anonymity. Taking this into account, how do you think I should change the thread title?
Serith (OP)
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 269
Merit: 250


View Profile
September 29, 2012, 06:32:27 PM
 #45

It's the nature of the code that Bitcoin is pseudo-anonymous.  You can't wish anonymity upon the code just because you feel a certain way (i.e. "sentiment"). 

I do not just "wish anonymity upon the code", see Automatic Coin Mixing Idea or P2P coin mixing


Look what's happened on this forum alone...people get scammed and now the SEC is apparently involved in a particular case.  This means that people are tracing Bitcoin transactions as we speak and connecting transactions to various persons.  This all happened before the Bitcoin Foundation; none of this is new.  Any radical change to the protocol would likely require a forking of the blockchain anyway and the success of that fork would be determined by a miner vote, i.e. hashing power.

Besides, look at how many people use Bitcoins and run to file a complaint as soon as they've been scammed.

Generally, smart people do not lose their money to scammers, so I don't think there should be even a choice between preserving financial privacy or making it a little harder to scam someone.


Moreover, look at the value of Bitcoin itself.  The only reason Bitcoin has the fledgling economy that it does is because of the exchanges.  Without exchanges as centralized value markers, people wouldn't be buying any goods or services.  And yet only a handful of people are shouting for the exchanges to close operations despite the fact that the exchanges go against the "sentiment" of Bitcoin (i.e. they involve 3rd parties that happens to collect your name, address, and several forms of identification). Maybe in the long, distant future we won't need a centralized exchange, just as in the future Bitcoin might not need a "Foundation" so to speak.

The Foundation will bring more organization to the community.  The community needs it now, just as it needs the exchanges now.  In the future, maybe they won't be needed.  But seriously, there are so many other aspects about Bitcoin to highlight than its anonymity factor Huh

Sometime there is benefits in giving up some privacy as a trade off, but I disagree with the implication that it should be an easy choice.


to make Bitcoin transactions absolutely anonymous

FYI: Being absolutely anonymous is technically impossible on the internet and in real life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anonymity

If Bitcoin client has feature such as Automatic Coin Mixing Idea or P2P coin mixing that would make the cost of uncovering someone's identity astronomically high, but mathematically speaking you're correct.


I think THIS is the disturbing sentiment that the OP was initially responding to, not whether Vessenes believes bitcoin is anonymous or not, but the sense that he doesn't CARE about anonymity.
This is a strategic decision. Think about it. Now that the Internet is here, not even the most repressive government can keep their citizens from blogging and reading western media. But that only happened because the Internet got here.

I am not sure if it is an irony or not, so I am going to take it for the face value. We can certainly speculate that it is the master plan, but I didn't see much that would support it.


Obviously people disagree with me, but I don't believe having an infiniteish number of addresses to potentially work with gives anyone real anonymity automatically. You have to work damn hard to stay anonymous and by default bitcoin doesn't give rise to privacy beyond the "numbered bank account" that swiss banks used to have. You're only anonymous as long as you aren't doing anything with your money. The second you spend it your invisibility cloak is chipped away at, no matter how small. The government or anyone else could always honeypot you  and gradually figure out more and more about your real identity over a large amount of time.

Being anonymous is an individuals responsibility and is crazy hard work to really do. Ironically the people who really need anonymity are the ones that have the hardest time really getting it. That said, I think everyone should work hard to be anonymous, if only because it gives even greater safety to the few who really need if it we are all practicing responsibly. I don't think Bitcoin itself lends itself to being anonymous any more then the internet itself lends itself to being anonymous. In theory yes- but when the internet interfaces to the real world: then not so much.

Probably, most of it is currently true, but it doesn't have to be this way, there is a fairly easy fix.


Either way, it seems like a reasonable and practical assumption to work on bitcoin without a focus on anonymity to push it forward. As long as nothing is added to bitcoin that deliberately makes it less anonymous, then no fault, no foul, no?

Unless Peter Vessenes clarifies his statement, I can assume that he doesn't care if Bitcoin users will have less privacy.


Fact of life, BTC do get stolen, BTC are use for hideous crimes.  Don't you think BITCOIN is facilitating these enough already ?
Anonymous by default would surely kill bitcoin in the long run.

I do not believe that we should give up our financial privacy because people getting scammed or use Bitcoin for illegal transactions.
kjj
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1302
Merit: 1025



View Profile
September 29, 2012, 07:29:31 PM
 #46

The thread title is bombastic and poorly chosen. However:

I believe that financial privacy is very, very important. Peter Vessenes, according to him doesn't share that opinion, and he also doesn't know some technical facts about Bitcoin Anonymity. Taking this into account, how do you think I should change the thread title?

You are nuts.

Real anonymity is impossible in bitcoin, and difficult to approximate.  He isn't saying that he doesn't care about anonymity, he's saying it is hard.

17Np17BSrpnHCZ2pgtiMNnhjnsWJ2TMqq8
I routinely ignore posters with paid advertising in their sigs.  You should too.
wumpus
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 812
Merit: 1022

No Maps for These Territories


View Profile
September 30, 2012, 08:12:25 AM
 #47

If Bitcoin client has feature such as Automatic Coin Mixing Idea or P2P coin mixing that would make the cost of uncovering someone's identity astronomically high, but mathematically speaking you're correct.
If you think they're so important, fork the client and add those features to your version (or pay someone to do it). As long as it can be done on top of the current network and block chain, there's nothing holding you back. That's open source. There is no need for "the" devs to add anything to "the" client. You don't even need their approval.   People that want your features will use your client.

Then again, the current devs are not *against* privacy or anonymity features. Otherwise, TOR support would have been removed instead of improved in recent versions. It simply doesn't have the priority that you'd like it to have, because there's many other things left to be done before the label of "-beta" can be removed. So layering complex systems on top of the base transactions is left to others for now.

I see a lot of lip service being paid to this "anonymous transactions" idea. A lot of ideas and big discussions, but no one really taking it all the way to an implementation. There are attempts such as "coin control", but that leaves all the burden on the user, and mostly provides a false sense of anonymity.

The Open Transactions project has done a lot of work on (mathematically) anonymous transactions and it can be used with Bitcoin. Maybe you could take a look at that if you're truly serious about this.

Bashing an organization that wants to take Bitcoin to the bigger public, just because you don't agree with a part of their priorities, is very non-constructive and won't help you advance your own goals at all.

Bitcoin Core developer [PGP] Warning: For most, coin loss is a larger risk than coin theft. A disk can die any time. Regularly back up your wallet through FileBackup Wallet to an external storage or the (encrypted!) cloud. Use a separate offline wallet for storing larger amounts.
Coinabul
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 588
Merit: 500


Coinabul - Gold Unbarred


View Profile WWW
October 01, 2012, 07:53:51 AM
 #48

(Vessenes's coinabul is Seattle based)
CoinLab*

Nice to know we're on your mind though Wink

Coinabul.com - Gold Unbarred
Website owners, let me put my ads on your site! PM me!
Pages: « 1 2 [3]  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!