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Author Topic: Shadowcash vs. Monero, an unbiased debate.  (Read 7409 times)
fluffypony
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August 01, 2015, 10:32:34 AM
 #41

What happens to PoW-based coins that one day reach a point where it is no longer profitable for miners to continue to mine due to the required resources? Could very well be the case with LTC at some point for example (unless I am mistaken).

Monero counters this by having a minimum block reward (ie. it is permanently disinflationary), so there will be no reliance on fees. I would imagine that, in the face of global adoption, the hashrate will tend towards some technological ceiling (let's call that supply) with the equlibrium being curbed by "mining profit" incentives (let's call that demand). General mining decline is staved off by Monero's Smart Mining system, whereby users (including those using lightweight wallets) mine in the background to a threshold when not on battery power and when the system is idle (enabled-by-default-but-optional).

Also, you have some groups like 21e6 who are pushing the limits of computing for mining purposes (the ASIC manufacturer deal), just a handful of these types and you would have 3-4 individual "groups" that control 90% of the mining power of the market -- How is that good for a system that is intended for and relies on decentralization?

Just curious.

Monero's PoW closes the performance gap between CPUs, GPUs, and ASICs, so whilst this is entirely possible it still means that (in the far future) CPU miners could be a measurable part of the hashrate. Couple this with Smart Mining, and for-profit mining farms, and it seems unlikely that a small number will be able to exercise control over a significant portion of the hashrate.

Exactly! pow is going to get to the point where people don't even want to mess around with it because they would rather have a wallet staking built into their glasses or some shit (future be crazy).

Isn't that the whole point of 21, building PoW mining into IoT devices? That provides a much more secure network than nothing-at-stake PoS.

And I don't give a shit about BTC as I am sure most of the people reading this feel the same way. I was not talking about BTC real world use,

If people don't care about BTC they're deluding themselves. None of this would exist without BTC, and when 99.9% of the altcoins / scamcoins / crapcoins here are but a whisper of a memory BTC will still be around.

I was talking about Monero and how Monero has no direction in terms of where it wants to be in a year and how it wants to be used. SDC's plans are clear cut... was my point. WHAT IS MONERO's plans to push volume?

We aren't trying to push volume. We are trying to build a truly secure platform that defends our user's right to privacy. Our plans have been clear cut for some time, and don't involve us defining use-cases: https://getmonero.org/design-goals/

There is no proof that POW is superior to POS. If there was then people wouldnt use adjectives like "I think" and "probably". Hybrid POW launch and POS to sustain the network for the fucking win.

I want to preface my response by stating that I absolutely am interested in alternate proof systems, as long as they are cryptographically sound and the model remains viable even if an attacker is exceptionally motivated and extremely resourceful. I would love - LOVE - for PoS to be that system, as at first glance it appears to be an excellent solution. If you are not used to thinking adversarially you may intuitively feel that PoS is secure because of the (directly measurable) "cost" of attacking the network, but cryptographically speaking that is not the case (see, for eg., stake grinding attacks).

There is unfortunately no proof (empirical or mathematical) that PoS is secure. There is not a single cryptographic model that demonstrates its viability under attack. A lot of the reasoning around PoS being a "success" is because it has been used on cryptocurrencies that are generally not "worth" very much (in the grand scheme of things, no insult to those cryptocurrencies, almost all PoW currencies are equally worthless) and are thus not interesting targets for a motivated attacker.

I think the biggest evidence of PoS being an abject failure can be found in the Vericoin / Mintpal hack. If PoS were able to be used in a truly fungible cryptocurrency, then the hack would have resulted in the thieves initially getting away with their stash, and just like a cash heist the affected users would have had to rely on regular ol' policing to find the criminals and bring them to justice. Rolling back the blockchain for theft is unprecedented, and it means that the participants wilfully violated the social contract for that currency, knowingly destroyed its fungibility, set a dangerous precedent, and would never have needed to happen if the theft hadn't presented a huge security risk.

Also, I have an open mind and will throw money at Monero if you guys can tell me where you will be in a year and why you think POS is teh suck. But if you respond with "just cuz" like you have been, then you wont get a dime.

Don't buy Monero. It's not an investment, and throwing money at it would only be for your own self-enrichment. There is a much greater chance that Monero fails completely than that it succeeds. If you purchase any Monero (beyond purchasing some to use as a currency) you do so at an incredible risk, and with the likelihood that your "investment" will be worthless. Don't investment more than you're willing to lose. Don't buy Monero unless you absolutely know why you're buying it and to what end.

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August 01, 2015, 10:35:40 AM
 #42

both are shit, since their only way to advertise for is through bct, cus they know nobody gives a shit outside.
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August 02, 2015, 01:07:20 PM
 #43

Well this thread was disappointing,I thought there was going to be some actual technical comparison but guess i was wrong

SHADOW
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╔══SHADOW.HOME.PAGE
╠═SHADOW.FORUM
SHADOW.WIKI
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August 02, 2015, 01:37:36 PM
 #44

2. Being forked from Bitcoin is a blessing and a curse. Merging bug and security fixes from upstream Bitcoin (which will remain the target of more powerful proving and attack than any altcoin for the foreseeable future) is great, but it is going to be progressively more difficult to do so. The risk is exceedingly great that (as has just happened over the last few days) Bitcoin will reveal a security hole, and a cryptocurrency forked from it will not have implemented the fix.
But the same is true for any other project including XMR.

3. Bitcoin's use of secp256k1 is...ok, but given that SafeCurves (Daniel J. Bernstein and Tanja Lange) view secp256k1 as unsafe, the use of the same curve is a little bit of a risk (Monero uses Curve25519).

Been bought up before and you can see response here : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=380482.msg4083612#msg4083612

In short, the criteria Secp256k1 fails are not generally a concern for us. The curves' recommended by the authors did not exist when Bitcoin was created and might have been preferable.  But The popular curves in widespread use today fail in generally worse ways (e.g. no evidence that they aren't cooked by the NSA) and the curve we use offers very high speed implementations and is safe for our use, even if something else would have allowed simpler implementations.

There are other criteria that the implementations of the recommended curves fail— e.g. it looks like curve25519 requires the most significant bit of the private key is set. Beyond reducing the keyspace this has the effect of making it impossible to use schemes like BIP32 for public derivation of addresses. (At least, while using the standard constant time implementations).  Perhaps more interesting is that the page does not penalize curve25519 for having a non-one cofactor. As mentioned this reduces the rho-hardness, but since failure to handle it correctly has resulted in cryptographic weaknesses (e.g. in PAKE schemes). Cryptographic protocols need to multiply their values by the cofactor it's an implementation trap along the lines of the "completeness" examples and this is easier to get wrong if your cofactor is one as it is in secp256k1.

^ I am with STUPID!
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August 02, 2015, 01:43:50 PM
 #45

I don't know about the SDC launch, I wasn't there.
The SDC distribution process of 100% of the supply going out in two weeks is terrible.
<snip>

roundabouts and swings ... PoW does not guarantee better distribution.
We are not talking about Bitcoin v.s. SDC/XMR here ... the SDC/XMR user base is small (just as bitcoin was years ago).

What guarantee do you have that a large % of the mining hash is not one group or individual? both from start and today?
People mine new coins, to dump them on the exchange as soon as they can (I know people who mined chunks of XMR and SDC and did that) .. therefore those coins only made it into the hands of people who generally wanted to Buy SDC or XMR ...

Whether you mine or buy is irrelevant at the small user base and market caps both these currencies have.

^ I am with STUPID!
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August 02, 2015, 01:48:06 PM
 #46

I've always viewed shadowcash as a scam. Not only that but it's complete bloatware and the coding is corrupted. That alone makes me question it's security.

Monero (XMR) is flawless in every sense, and fully anonymous... Everyone loves monero, especially the deepwebs.

Thank you for the great contribution to the thread ... /s

I think the shadow devs are too busy working to be spending time browsing btt. Every minute counts. Its an arms race at the end of the day, whether people will admit it or not.  

Could not have sad it better myself ... They are doing what they do best .. "developing a privacy platform" ...

^ I am with STUPID!
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August 02, 2015, 02:42:04 PM
 #47

Quote
Whether you mine or buy is irrelevant at the small user base and market caps both these currencies have.

Mine or buy is irrelevant, I agree, but coins being distributed over a longer vs. a shorter period of time supports wider distribution by keeping liquidity high and not allowing a few people to corner the supply.
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August 02, 2015, 02:42:45 PM
 #48

Nothing to see here. Just monero sc(p)am.

Interested in Bitcoin, NXT and many others. Do your own investigation on coins that look interesting! Only buy the amount you can afford to lose.
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August 02, 2015, 02:46:55 PM
 #49

Well this thread was disappointing,I thought there was going to be some actual technical comparison but guess i was wrong

Of course this thread is disappointing, half the posts are from Monero Devs in what is supposedly an unbiased thread.

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August 02, 2015, 02:50:42 PM
 #50

Well this thread was disappointing,I thought there was going to be some actual technical comparison but guess i was wrong

Of course this thread is disappointing, half the posts are from Monero Devs in what is supposedly an unbiased thread.

Wait a minute, if half the posts are pro-Monaro then the thread is completely balanced. My initial post even said some positive things about SDC, and so did fluffypony.
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August 02, 2015, 02:58:57 PM
 #51

PoS is nowhere close to PoW in terms of research. At this point the economic incentives to attack most PoS coins have not been high enough to prove worthwhile.

I am not saying that PoS has no chance to succeed or that PoW is perfect. I am saying that at this point the chances of an existential threat to PoS are far greater than to PoW.

Ignoring all of that PoS distribution models including very brief PoW periods prior to PoS as employed by SDC frequently lead to unhealthy coin distribution.  As you can tell from my Twitter feed I have said some positive things about SDC in the past. However I have much more trust in XMR and BBR.  

I am also not a fan of the in wallet decentralized exchange plans of SDC. Besides believing it should be separate from the coin itself for many reasons (like Open Bazaar model), it reminds me of vaporware based on photoshop promotion by CLOAK and other coins.

I am sticking to CryptoNote coins without fastmines, premines or PoS issues.  If Zerocoin ever comes along I will support that as well.

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August 02, 2015, 03:08:00 PM
 #52

Well this thread was disappointing,I thought there was going to be some actual technical comparison but guess i was wrong

Of course this thread is disappointing, half the posts are from Monero Devs in what is supposedly an unbiased thread.

Wait a minute, if half the posts are pro-Monaro then the thread is completely balanced. My initial post even said some positive things about SDC, and so did fluffypony.

Why are you talking about balance? The thread is meant to be unbiased, being part of the dev team usually means you have a bias towards your own coin.

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August 02, 2015, 03:10:58 PM
 #53

Well this thread was disappointing,I thought there was going to be some actual technical comparison but guess i was wrong

Of course this thread is disappointing, half the posts are from Monero Devs in what is supposedly an unbiased thread.

Wait a minute, if half the posts are pro-Monaro then the thread is completely balanced. My initial post even said some positive things about SDC, and so did fluffypony.

Why are you talking about balance? The thread is meant to be unbiased, being part of the dev team usually means you have a bias towards your own coin.

A debate being unbiased does not mean that each participant is unbiased.
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August 02, 2015, 03:36:24 PM
 #54

Well this thread was disappointing,I thought there was going to be some actual technical comparison but guess i was wrong

Of course this thread is disappointing, half the posts are from Monero Devs in what is supposedly an unbiased thread.

Wait a minute, if half the posts are pro-Monaro then the thread is completely balanced. My initial post even said some positive things about SDC, and so did fluffypony.

Why are you talking about balance? The thread is meant to be unbiased, being part of the dev team usually means you have a bias towards your own coin.

A debate being unbiased does not mean that each participant is unbiased.


Just want you to think about this for a moment.

You, being a developer of XMR, are likely to be more biased towards XMR than anyone else. In any given comparison between XMR and nearly anything else you will always think of XMR as being superior, because it has what you'd like to see in a coin due to you developing it. As such you will always (whether you mean to or not) put your coin in a favorable light.

Can you really have an unbiased debate when you are quite possibly the most biased towards one of the stances?

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August 02, 2015, 03:39:15 PM
 #55

Well this thread was disappointing,I thought there was going to be some actual technical comparison but guess i was wrong

Of course this thread is disappointing, half the posts are from Monero Devs in what is supposedly an unbiased thread.

Wait a minute, if half the posts are pro-Monaro then the thread is completely balanced. My initial post even said some positive things about SDC, and so did fluffypony.

Why are you talking about balance? The thread is meant to be unbiased, being part of the dev team usually means you have a bias towards your own coin.

A debate being unbiased does not mean that each participant is unbiased.


Just want you to think about this for a moment.

You, being a developer of XMR, are likely to be more biased towards XMR than anyone else. In any given comparison between XMR and nearly anything else you will always think of XMR as being superior, because it has what you'd like to see in a coin due to you developing it. As such you will always (whether you mean to or not) put your coin in a favorable light.

Can you really have an unbiased debate when you are quite possibly the most biased towards one of the stances?

As I understand the concept of a debate you have advocates for a position who present their views. The advocates are not unbiased, the process is.

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August 02, 2015, 04:00:30 PM
 #56

Well this thread was disappointing,I thought there was going to be some actual technical comparison but guess i was wrong

Of course this thread is disappointing, half the posts are from Monero Devs in what is supposedly an unbiased thread.

Wait a minute, if half the posts are pro-Monaro then the thread is completely balanced. My initial post even said some positive things about SDC, and so did fluffypony.

Why are you talking about balance? The thread is meant to be unbiased, being part of the dev team usually means you have a bias towards your own coin.

A debate being unbiased does not mean that each participant is unbiased.


Just want you to think about this for a moment.

You, being a developer of XMR, are likely to be more biased towards XMR than anyone else. In any given comparison between XMR and nearly anything else you will always think of XMR as being superior, because it has what you'd like to see in a coin due to you developing it. As such you will always (whether you mean to or not) put your coin in a favorable light.

Can you really have an unbiased debate when you are quite possibly the most biased towards one of the stances?

As I understand the concept of a debate you have advocates for a position who present their views. The advocates are not unbiased, the process is.



Except that if one is trying to have as unbiased debate as possible it is typically seen as more appropriate to present information from a neutral point of view, of course this is a very tricky way to present information if one is biased.

When 2 Monero devs make up nearly 1/3rd of the total posts while an SDC team member only makes up 1/20th it becomes hard to claim that this debate is actually unbiased.

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August 02, 2015, 04:19:04 PM
 #57

Well this thread was disappointing,I thought there was going to be some actual technical comparison but guess i was wrong

Of course this thread is disappointing, half the posts are from Monero Devs in what is supposedly an unbiased thread.

Wait a minute, if half the posts are pro-Monaro then the thread is completely balanced. My initial post even said some positive things about SDC, and so did fluffypony.

Why are you talking about balance? The thread is meant to be unbiased, being part of the dev team usually means you have a bias towards your own coin.

A debate being unbiased does not mean that each participant is unbiased.


Just want you to think about this for a moment.

You, being a developer of XMR, are likely to be more biased towards XMR than anyone else. In any given comparison between XMR and nearly anything else you will always think of XMR as being superior, because it has what you'd like to see in a coin due to you developing it. As such you will always (whether you mean to or not) put your coin in a favorable light.

Can you really have an unbiased debate when you are quite possibly the most biased towards one of the stances?

As I understand the concept of a debate you have advocates for a position who present their views. The advocates are not unbiased, the process is.



Except that if one is trying to have as unbiased debate as possible it is typically seen as more appropriate to present information from a neutral point of view, of course this is a very tricky way to present information if one is biased.

When 2 Monero devs make up nearly 1/3rd of the total posts while an SDC team member only makes up 1/20th it becomes hard to claim that this debate is actually unbiased.

But the bias in the arguments they form is transparent. We knew they're monero devs.

What do you expect? The people that know the most about the coin would probably be the developers of the coin. They're also the best voice to represent the technology that they developed and implemented.

The bias argument you bring up detracts from the purpose of this thread.
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August 02, 2015, 04:50:19 PM
 #58

Is it possible to break this down and try to simplify the differences?  I am just trying to make a simplified summary here.

Monero is POW
Shadowcash is POS

Monero is building new protocol
Shadowcash is building on top of bitcoin protocol

Monero uses viewkeys to make wanted tx public
Shadowcash uses public and private tx

Am I missing anything?
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August 02, 2015, 04:54:42 PM
 #59

What is shadowcash again? I heard that new.

Monero for the win!
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August 02, 2015, 06:16:01 PM
 #60

PoS is nowhere close to PoW in terms of research. At this point the economic incentives to attack most PoS coins have not been high enough to prove worthwhile.
I am not saying that PoS has no chance to succeed or that PoW is perfect. I am saying that at this point the chances of an existential threat to PoS are far greater than to PoW.
Well of-course it is not .. ~90% of the crypto market cap is held by a PoW coin ...
The chaps over at NeuCoin have done extensive research on it .. you should read it : http://www.neucoin.org/en/whitepaper/

Ignoring all of that PoS distribution models including very brief PoW periods prior to PoS as employed by SDC frequently lead to unhealthy coin distribution.  As you can tell from my Twitter feed I have said some positive things about SDC in the past. However I have much more trust in XMR and BBR.  
How are they any more unhealthy than PoW coins that have premines, fastmines? or coins with low PoW network hash that anyone can mine a decent chunk? or coins with low market caps that anyone can buy a decent chunk?

I am also not a fan of the in wallet decentralized exchange plans of SDC. Besides believing it should be separate from the coin itself for many reasons (like Open Bazaar model), it reminds me of vaporware based on photoshop promotion by CLOAK and other coins.
It is decentralised so why should it be separate? since you mentioned "decentralized exchange plans", I assume you are referring to the "decentralised market" since there is no exchange plans.
You do not tell someone to come buy a car from your showroom and then tell them to go buy the tyres from across the road and the headlights from another country? It is called a "package".

Lastly if you took time to look into Shadow you would notice it is one of a few to deliver new technology again and again ... nothing we promised has not been delivered. If you are going to make those accusation then at-least back them up. If you think Shadow is your run of the mill scam coin from bitcointalk then there really is not much else to talk about.

.. and I had a good laugh at "Open Bazaar model"; model of selling themselves to VCs? yeah that is great for privacy.


^ I am with STUPID!
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